Martin really isn't that bad

#1
iKrager

iKrager

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#1
Since everyone thinks this season is over by losing one game on the road (stupid right?), I've decided to make this thread to show you Cuonzo really isn't that bad. Believe me or not, it's you who has to decide. (Please read the final comment before posting)

Point: This thread is comparing successful college basketball coaches to Cuonzo, we'll look specifically at W-Ls and their postseason success for their first 5 years as a head coach.


Cuonzo Martin @ Tennessee:
Year: Record Postseason
2008-09: 11-20 DNP
2009-10: 24-12 CIT Champions
2010-11: 26-9 NIT Second Round
Year: Record Postseason
2011-12: 19-15 NIT Second Round
2012-13: 20-13 NIT First Round

Overall record: 100-69 (.588)

Coach Krzyzewski @ Army and Duke
ARMY
Year: Record Postseason
1975-76: 11-14 DNP (Did Not Place)
1976-77: 20-8 DNP
1977-78: 19-9 NIT Second Round
1978-79: 14-11 DNP
1979-80: 9-17 DNP

Overall record: 73-59 (.553)

DUKE
Year: Record Postseason
1980-81: 17-13 NIT Quaterfinals
1981-82: 10-17 DNP
1982-83: 11-17 DNP
1983-84: 24-10 NCAA Second Round
1984-85: 23-8 NCAA Second Round

Overall record: 85-65 (.566)
10-year record: 158-124 (.560)

Jim Calhoun @ Northeastern and Connecticut
Northeastern
Year: Record Postseason
1972-73: 19-7 DNP
1973-74: 12-11 DNP
1974-75: 12-12 DNP
1975-76: 12-13 DNP
1976-77: 12-14 DNP

Overall record: 67-57 (.540)

Connecticut
Year: Record Postseason
1986-87: 9-19 DNP
1987-88: 20-14 NIT Champions
1988-89: 18-13 NIT Quarterfinals
1990-91: 31-6 NCAA Elite Eight
1991-92: 20-11 NCAA Sweet Sixteen

Overall record: 98-63 (.609)
10-year record: 165-120 (.579)

Tom Izzo @ Michigan State
Year: Record Postseason
1995-96: 16-16 NIT Second Round
1996-97: 17-12 NIT Second Round
1997-98: 22-8 NCAA Sweet Sixteen
1998-99: 33-5 Final Four
1999-00: 32-7 NCAA Champions

Overall record: 120-48 (.714)

John Calipari @ UMass and Memphis
UMass
Year: Record Postseason
1988-89: 10-18 DNP
1989-90: 17-14 NIT First Round
1990-91: 20-13 NIT Semifinals
1991-92: 30-5 NCAA Sweet Sixteen
1992-93: 24-7 NCAA Second Round

Overall record: 101-57 (.639)

Memphis
Year: Record Postseason
2000-01: 21-15 NIT Semifinals
2001-02: 27-9 NIT Champions
2002-03: 23-7 NCAA First Round
2003-04: 22-8 NCAA Second Round
2004-05: 22-16 NIT Semifinals

Overall record: 115-55 (.676)
10-year record: 216-112 (.658)


Are you seeing a pattern? Wow, that's weird these all time great basketball coaches weren't successful their first couple years of basketball? So if Coach K didn't do well his first 10 years, he obviously won't learn/coach X's and O's - see how that philosophy worked out? Some of these coaches had turrible post season success, but eventually became national champions. Look at all these coaches who developed into great coaches, it wasn't easy their first couple years, but look where they are now!!

Cuonzo his first year here overachieved, we've all heard the story: picked to place 7th in conference finished T-2nd overall. His second year here, he had the talent but losing your leading scorer will effect your team and too many bad losses held us back: finished 5th in conference.

This is Cuonzo's 3rd year here, he's done a decent job so far (.588 isn't bad). I loved Bruce Pearl, a great guy, a good coach, but sadly he is not our coach anymore (and he probably never will be). If you can't back Cuonzo for now, then don't bother posting here or even attending a game - why would you?

cncchris33 said:
The point in presenting all that information in the OP is to prove that there are good coaches who have started their careers slowly, and turned it around. It's not proof-positive that it is a certainty to happen. Sure, there are plenty more examples of coaches who flamed out, but the post wasn't made to compare the ratio of the two, but rather to show that not every coach comes in and lights the world on fire from the opening tip of their careers.

It's a fair criticism to have wanted to see more improvement, but I would just caution you to let this season play out before we torch the mattresses. Martin's success or failure will take care of itself.
Click to expand...


tl;dr - Cuonzo is our coach now, we all loved Bruce, but lets face it - unless Cuonzo doesn't make the tournament with avoiding injuries - Bruce isn't coming back. The first stop is Martin town either get on or get off. We have hell of a season to look forward to, we'll get all of our first game worries out the way when we crush our next couple opponents then on to Battle 4 Atlantis.

Enjoy a good season ahead of us and let's get pumped for some Tennessee Basketball!
 
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#2
#2
Good info im still very much a cuonzo supporter!
Posted via VolNation Mobile
 
#6
#6
vols 30 said:
Cuonzo just needs to win meaningful games in November and December.
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Despite people exaggerating Martin's Nov/Dec success, he wasn't actually that bad. He had a rough year in OOC play in 11-12, who remembers when we looked completely lost against Peay? Yeah, me too.

In 2011-12 he went 8-5 as a first year head coach
Respectable wins: NONE
Losses: Duke, Memphis (2OT), Pittsburgh, CoC, and Austin Peay

Bad losses kept us out of the tournament, no good OOC wins.

In 2012-13 he went 7-3
Respectable wins: Umass, Xavier, Wichita State (all top 30-35 teams)
Losses: Oklahoma State, Georgetown, Virginia (top 30 teams)

Definitely respectable losses, and decent wins for 12-13.

Just saying, we don't have much to work with - Cuonzo has only coached here for 2 years. So saying he's a bad coach in November and December is a bit rubbish. We'll see how he does this year and we'll get a better picture.
 
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#7
#7
I posted all that same info last year krager. You wont convince those who don't want to be convinced. They'll spin that info every which way but up.
 
#8
#8
I have no idea what that has to do with analyzing the true suckiness of last night's coaching. Just analyze the game for what it was and move on. It's not personal to talk about mistakes. If that's me, I'm not making them again and adjusting some things that we do. If he doesn't adjust, so be it. I hope he does. I just worry that when it gets tight he reverts to bad habits.
 
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#10
#10
Spartacavolus said:
I have no idea what that has to do with analyzing the true suckiness of last night's coaching.
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Yes last night's game was bad, but after VolNation reacted, a thread like this is necessary. There's comments like "he can't coach" "fire cuonzo" "he will never learn _______" "he won't be more than mediocre" etc etc

Most people are dictating the season after one loss. If you don't get the point of this post, it probably isn't for you.
 
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#12
#12
iKrager said:
Yes last night's game was bad, but after VolNation reacted, a thread like this is necessary. There's comments like "he can't coach" "fire cuonzo" "he will never learn _______" "he won't be more than mediocre" etc etc

Most people are dictating the season after one loss. If you don't get the point of this post, it probably isn't for you.
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I get the point fine. I think some fail to get the point that we have been to the nit 2 years in a row and underachieved last year. Seeing the same things that brought this team down last year and 2 years ago happen this year with a lot of new players is worrisome and has really little or nothing to do with the L.
 
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#13
#13
Spartacavolus said:
I get the point fine. I think some fail to get the point that we have been to the nit 2 years in a row and underachieved last year. Seeing the same things that brought this team down last year and 2 years ago happen this year with a lot of new players is worrisome and has really little or nothing to do with the L.
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Except last year he lost Maymon very close to the start of the year when he was expecting him to play, changing the whole dynamic of the team and gameplan. And this was a 4 point loss (one loss), on the road, against a team favored by 3. Martin's done a good job considering all he's had to deal with. You act like he had a picture perfect situation handed to him. He didn't.
 
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#14
#14
Calipari started coaching at UK in 09. So what's up with quoting Memphis' record for those years?????
 
#17
#17
Spartacavolus said:
I get the point fine. I think some fail to get the point that we have been to the nit 2 years in a row and underachieved last year. Seeing the same things that brought this team down last year and 2 years ago happen this year with a lot of new players is worrisome and has really little or nothing to do with the L.
Click to expand...
Because it took time for these great coaches to become great! I really don't think you understand this, at some point Coach K had to change his philosophy and figure out a different approach. At some point Jim Calhoun figured out a way to get his players to play or figured out something that he hadn't before!

This is the 3rd year of his coaching, he's improving little by little, if you want to be ignorant and ignore facts then so be it. There's always ups and downs of a coach, losing to Xavier was a down. Cuonzo is fixing his problems one step at a time. We're light years better than how we were his first year.
 
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#18
#18
whobethis16 said:
Except last year he lost Maymon very close to the start of the year when he was expecting him to play, changing the whole dynamic of the team and gameplan. And this was a 4 point loss (one loss), on the road, against a team favored by 3. Martin's done a good job considering all he's had to deal with. You act like he had a picture perfect situation handed to him. He didn't.
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blah blah last year. He started out slow and adapted too late when he went to the 4-1 set and pushed the pace. If he changes earlier, we go to the tourney. Then late in the year at crunch time, he pulled the reigns in again and coached the exact gameplan he played last night.
If he can make changes quicker and stick with what works he'll be fine. If he keeps coaching like he did last year and last game he won't.
 
#19
#19
The OP provided a lot of information but didn't tell us where all of those programs were before the future stars took over.

I think we'll learn a lot about our coach this year; hopefully mostly good things.
 
#20
#20
iKrager said:
Because it took time for these great coaches to become great! I really don't think you understand this, at some point Coach K had to change his philosophy and figure out a different approach. At some point Jim Calhoun figured out a way to get his players to play or figured out something that he hadn't before!

This is the 3rd year of his coaching, he's improving little by little, if you want to be ignorant and ignore facts then so be it. There's always ups and downs of a coach, losing to Xavier was a down. Cuonzo is fixing his problems one step at a time. We're light years better than how we were his first year.
Click to expand...


When have you sensed a tinge of greatness? And stop asking me if I understand something. I hope he succeeds and makes the necessary adjustments. I just haven't been convinced or seen anything that tells me he isn't too full of pride to make necessary wholesale changes to his thought process. If he is a thinking man, it really shouldn't be a problem
 
#21
#21
iKrager said:
John Calipari @ UMass and Memphis
UMass
Year: Record Postseason
1988-89: 10-18 DNP
1989-90: 17-14 NIT First Round
1990-91: 20-13 NIT Semifinals
1991-92: 30-5 NCAA Sweet Sixteen
1992-93: 24-7 NCAA Second Round

Overall record: 101-57 (.639)

Memphis
Year: Record Postseason
2008-09: 21-15 NIT Semifinals
2009-10: 27-9 NIT Champions
2010-11: 23-7 NCAA First Round
2011-12: 22-8 NCAA Second Round
2012-13: 22-16 NIT Semifinals

Overall record: 115-55 (.676)
10-year record: 216-112 (.658)
Click to expand...

Calipari started at Kentucky in 2009-10. The provided Memphis records are for the five-season period of 2000-05.
 
#23
#23
iKrager said:
Yes last night's game was bad, but after VolNation reacted, a thread like this is necessary. There's comments like "he can't coach" "fire cuonzo" "he will never learn _______" "he won't be more than mediocre" etc etc

Most people are dictating the season after one loss. If you don't get the point of this post, it probably isn't for you.
Click to expand...

I actually think we will turn it around this year and have a good season. Mayman and Stokes will need to adjust to the new rules and adapt. I love our new point guard and think with time he will guide and direct this team. Macrae is a wildcard, is hot and cold at times and doesn't distribute the ball very well. Richardson, Hubbs, Moore are steady and good players imo - the rest .... look a little shaky.

Just as we shouldn't get overly excited with this loss - we shouldn't think Coach Martin had turned the corner if we make it to the dance this year.

I am extremely concerned about next years team - do we have a point guard or big men in this signing class?
 
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#25
#25
I have doubts as to Cuonzo getting it done at UT. It's up to him to prove me wrong and believe me, I would love to be wrong. Gladly will admit so if that is the case.
 
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