Manning "upsets" Tebow in Finebaum's Best SEC QB Bracket

[HoptownVol]

I'll take these on a case by case basis.

How many combined NFL starts did Manning's receivers have? I did this a few years ago comparing Wuerfel and Manning. Wuerful had a ton more talent at the receiver position IIRC. Would not surprise me if Tebow had a ton of talent at to throw to as well...

I said, and I'll correct you, that his numbers can be inflated for any number of reasons, scheme, coaching, and of course, talent disparity.

Again, you are trying to simplify something that requires nuance and thought. It's not that simple.

And finally, you think I can't produce those numbers...Did it ever occur to you that some of these stats are hard to dig up?

But feel free to dig up Peyton's YAC numbers, and I'll put up Tebow's, since you think they are so easy to unearth.

I know they're not easy to find, thats why I laughed at you leaning on a stat that is generally
unavailable.

And I've already blown up the talent disparity angle, at least while Peyton was in Knoxville because
UT sent more players to the NFL over a 5 year period than did the Gators. I'm not denying Tebow had
talent at receiver, but somebody had to get them the ball for cryin out loud, and contrary to what I read
here, he didnt make a living on short high %
throws.

Now you go dig up your stats or whatever else you can find that is actually tangible, and not so nuanced.

 

[Thunndarr]

I know they're not easy to find, thats why I laughed at you leaning on a stat that is generally
unavailable.

And I've already blown up the talent disparity angle, at least while Peyton was in Knoxville because
UT sent more players to the NFL over a 5 year period than did the Gators. I'm not denying Tebow had
talent at receiver, but somebody had to get them the ball for cryin out loud, and contrary to what I read
here, he didnt make a living on short high %
throws.

Now you go dig up your stats or whatever else you can find that is actually tangible, and not so nuanced.

Wouldn't you suspect that receiver talent might have a pretty significant impact on a QB's numbers? You haven't addressed that. What you did address was whether Tennessee was at a talent disadvantage to Florida those years. This is something completely different, but you appear to want to ignore it because you likely know the answer: Tebow likely had better talent at receiver than Peyton did.

 

[HoptownVol]

Wouldn't you suspect that receiver talent might have a pretty significant impact on a QB's numbers? You haven't addressed that. What you did address was whether Tennessee was at a talent disadvantage to Florida those years. This is something completely different, but you appear to want to ignore it because you likely know the answer: Tebow likely had better talent at receiver than Peyton did.

During Peyton's playing time, the Vols had 5 WRs drafted. Are you now claiming that there is such
a wide talent gap that would explain Tebow's better numbers?

 

[Thunndarr]

During Peyton's playing time, the Vols had 5 WRs drafted. Are you now claiming that there is such
a wide talent gap that would explain Tebow's better numbers?

Do some homework. How many combined NFL starts did they have? (Hint: not many. Further, they got drafted on the basis that Peyton got them yards.)

 

[HoptownVol]

Do some homework. How many combined NFL starts did they have? (Hint: not many. Further, they got drafted on the basis that Peyton got them yards.)

Oh brother, we're talking about college football. Not the talent differential in the NFL.

So now Peyton got all these guys drafted, and Tebow only had the numbers because he was surrounded
by superior talent. That about right? lol:

 

[Thunndarr]

Oh brother, we're talking about college football. Not the talent differential in the NFL.

So now Peyton got all these guys drafted, and Tebow only had the numbers because he was surrounded
by superior talent. That about right? lol:

This is really hard for you isn't it?

We KNOW Peyton is a great QB. We know his receivers put up decent numbers in college, but did next to nothing in the NFL. Too hard for you to envision a scenario in which the QB is making the receivers look better than they actually are?

Is it also possible that receivers make the QB look better than he really is? Is it THAT hard for you to imagine? It's not a difficult concept. Who did Tebow throw to? Harvin, Cooper, Hernandez. Ever heard of any of those guys? Did they do anything in the NFL?

 

[HoptownVol]

This is really hard for you isn't it?

We KNOW Peyton is a great QB. We know his receivers put up decent numbers in college, but did next to nothing in the NFL. Too hard for you to envision a scenario in which the QB is making the receivers look better than they actually are?

Is it also possible that receivers make the QB look better than he really is? Is it THAT hard for you to imagine? It's not a difficult concept. Who did Tebow throw to? Harvin, Cooper, Hernandez. Ever heard of any of those guys? Did they do anything in the NFL?

This is getting comical, still with the NFL. Sheez.

BTW, I just checked Peyton's numbers from 97, he had 74 completions to the backs, thats 26% of
his completions to running backs. Talk about pumping your stats!

BTW, where's that YAC stat you dreamed up?

 

[Thunndarr]

This is getting comical, still with the NFL. Sheez.

BTW, I just checked Peyton's numbers from 97, he had 74 completions to the backs, thats 26% of
his completions to running backs. Talk about pumping your stats!

BTW, where's that YAC stat you dreamed up?

So, by not acknowledging the talent disparity in their receivers, I take it you admit that Tebow's receivers were substantially better than Peyton had?

 

[HoptownVol]

So, by not acknowledging the talent disparity in their receivers, I take it you admit that Tebow's receivers were substantially better than Peyton had?

No I dont, not at the collegiate level. Now I'll talk NFL with you all day long if the subject is NFL, but
its not. And you know what else its not.... its not about receivers either!

And BTW, in 2009 Tebow only threw to backs 51 times, so much for this "all he did" jazz.

 

[Thunndarr]

No I dont, not at the collegiate level.

Seriously? You're flat out delusional then.

Let's take a hypothetical to show you just how much.

Player A: 3,000 yards passing, 35 TD's, 10 INTs.

Player B: 3,000 yards passing, 35 TD's, 10 INTs.

Player A washes out in the NFL, but his (college) receivers go on to have solid careers in the NFL.

Player B goes on to a decent career, his (college) receivers end up getting waived/cut after not really making many starts.

So, in your book, players A and B are identical, yes? In my book, one is making his receivers look better than they are, the other is made to look better than he is by his receivers. It not a difficult concept to grasp. It's an outright REALITY that this is how the world actually works. That you continue to argue this point is nonsensical.

(Incidentally, the NFL draft is littered with examples of this being the case.)

It just so happens that in this PARTICULAR discussion, the facts happen to support my opinion that Peyton helped his receivers, Tebow WAS HELPED by his.

 

[HoptownVol]

Seriously? You're flat out delusional then.

Let's take a hypothetical to show you just how much.

Player A: 3,000 yards passing, 35 TD's, 10 INTs.

Player B: 3,000 yards passing, 35 TD's, 10 INTs.

Player A washes out in the NFL, but his (college) receivers go on to have solid careers in the NFL.

Player B goes on to a decent career, his (college) receivers end up getting waived/cut after not really making many starts.

So, in your book, players A and B are identical, yes? In my book, one is making his receivers look better than they are, the other is made to look better than he is by his receivers. It not a difficult concept to grasp. It's an outright REALITY that this is how the world actually works. That you continue to argue this point is nonsensical.

(Incidentally, the NFL draft is littered with examples of this being the case.)

It just so happens that in this PARTICULAR discussion, the facts happen to support my opinion that Peyton helped his receivers, Tebow WAS HELPED by his.

Excuse me, I'm going to have to remind you that we are talking about NCAA football here, please stay focused.

Senior years:

Manning - Price, Nash, Copeland, McCullough, all had double digits. Nash had over 1100 yard, Price
and Copeland 700 each. Now, I'd say thats a pretty productive WR corps wouldn't you?

Tebow - Hernandez and Cooper. I dont know these other guys but those two accounted for 1800 yards
and Hernandez had a breakout year. Hernandez was taken in the 4th, and Cooper in the 5th. Neither
projected as NFL stars.

So it looks to me like a level playing field at best with Manning having more talent his senior year.

 

[VolsSportsFan]

So you guys that punish Tebow/Wuerffel because of their (lack of) pro career, I guess you then think Emmit Smith was a better college back than Herschel Walker and Bo Jackson.

 

[Thunndarr]

Excuse me, I'm going to have to remind you that we are talking about NCAA football here, please stay focused.

Senior years:

Manning - Price, Nash, Copeland, McCullough, all had double digits. Nash had over 1100 yard, Price
and Copeland 700 each. Now, I'd say thats a pretty productive WR corps wouldn't you?

Tebow - Hernandez and Cooper. I dont know these other guys but those two accounted for 1800 yards
and Hernandez had a breakout year. Hernandez was taken in the 4th, and Cooper in the 5th. Neither
projected as NFL stars.

So it looks to me like a level playing field at best with Manning having more talent his senior year.

The world must be a very confusing place for you.

You live in a world where Ryan Leaf and Peyton Manning are essentially the same player.

I live in a world where context matters. We can look at success in the NFL to find out players who were carried by their teams, their coaching, and their team mates.

 

[hndog609]

So you guys that punish Tebow/Wuerffel because of their (lack of) pro career, I guess you then think Emmit Smith was a better college back than Herschel Walker and Bo Jackson.

Kind of on a tangent but I would really have liked to have seen Walker and Jackson have played like Smith in the NFL, by which I mean no USFL for the former and a no baseball/no injury for the latter.

 

[McDman444]

The world must be a very confusing place for you.

You live in a world where Ryan Leaf and Peyton Manning are essentially the same player.

I live in a world where context matters. We can look at success in the NFL to find out players who were carried by their teams, their coaching, and their team mates.

How are you this stupid? The poll is clearly for collegiate level performance. You keep trying to bring in other factors about players NFL careers.

Future success has nothing to do with this poll. If you honestly think Peyton was better in college you're absolutely delusional.

 

[HoptownVol]

How are you this stupid? The poll is clearly for collegiate level performance. You keep trying to bring in other factors about players NFL careers.

Future success has nothing to do with this poll. If you honestly think Peyton was better in college you're absolutely delusional.[/QUOTE]


My sentiments exactly.

 

[apevol]

So you guys that punish Tebow/Wuerffel because of their (lack of) pro career, I guess you then think Emmit Smith was a better college back than Herschel Walker and Bo Jackson.

Bo suffered a terrible injury that nobody would come back from. Herchel Walker is mentally ill.

 

[Thunndarr]

So you guys that punish Tebow/Wuerffel because of their (lack of) pro career, I guess you then think Emmit Smith was a better college back than Herschel Walker and Bo Jackson.

If I were looking at the players in a vacuum, then yes. However, the whole point I'm trying to make is that context matters.

Off the top of my head, Jackson and Walker were physically more gifted (hence great college stats), Smith was the beneficiary of playing on a stacked team with an amazing o-line. (Plus, he was durable.)

 

[VolsSportsFan]

Bo suffered a terrible injury that nobody would come back from. Herchel Walker is mentally ill.

Ok.......

 

[HoptownVol]

If I were looking at the players in a vacuum, then yes. However, the whole point I'm trying to make is that context matters.

Off the top of my head, Jackson and Walker were physically more gifted (hence great college stats), Smith was the beneficiary of playing on a stacked team with an amazing o-line. (Plus, he was durable.)

See. thats your problem. You were asked if Smith was better in college, and you default to the Cowboys.

Comical, yes.

 

[Thunndarr]

How are you this stupid? The poll is clearly for collegiate level performance. You keep trying to bring in other factors about players NFL careers.

Future success has nothing to do with this poll. If you honestly think Peyton was better in college you're absolutely delusional.

Once again:

Single Season Leaders and Records for Passing Yards | College Football at Sports-Reference.com

If we subscribe to the mantra that "stats don't lie" then BJ Symons is arguably the best college QB ever. That's the mantra, right? Stats don't lie.

Now, it's a little absurd to actually make that argument, because we know OTHER FACTORS come into play that can lead to these video game season stats.

Ok, following so far? You either MUST BELIEVE that BJ Symons is arguably one of the greatest college QBs to ever play, OR you MUST ADMIT that other factors can affect a QBs statistics. Pick one.

The logical position is that the latter, obviously. THE NEXT LOGICAL QUESTION IS: WHAT AFFECTS STATS?

I grant you, it's a difficult concept to grasp.

BJ Symons would likely not have had those stats in the SEC. Why? Better athletes, better defenses, better coaching in general.

Might other QBs (even in the vaunted SEC) be subject to stat inflation? If so, how can we account for said stat inflation? Pretty easily, actually. Star rankings, coaching, scheme, NFL career starts.

 

[Thunndarr]

See. thats your problem. You were asked if Smith was better in college, and you default to the Cowboys.

Comical, yes.

If I were to take a stab at your problem, it'd probably be reading comprehension. I was asked how I could reconcile Smith having better pro numbers, while Walker and Jackson had better collegiate numbers. (See, one would have to infer this by the choices given, all time leading NFL rusher, and two all-time college greats.)

Thus, reconciling an NFL career stats with college stats was implied in the question. Why am I not surprised you didn't catch that?

 

[HoptownVol]

If I were to take a stab at your problem, it'd probably be reading comprehension. I was asked how I could reconcile Smith having better pro numbers, while Walker and Jackson had better collegiate numbers. (See, one would have to infer this by the choices given, all time leading NFL rusher, and two all-time college greats.)

Thus, reconciling an NFL career stats with college stats was implied in the question. Why am I not surprised you didn't catch that?

Nice try, this is exactly what you were asked.

I guess you then think Emmit Smith was a better college back than Herschel Walker and Bo Jackson?

We dont actually expect an answer, you seem incapable of separating college careers from the league.

 

[Thunndarr]

Nice try, this is exactly what you were asked.

I guess you then think Emmit Smith was a better college back than Herschel Walker and Bo Jackson?

We dont actually expect an answer, you seem incapable of separating college careers from the league.

No, I used reading comprehension. You see, it wasn't a random selection of players that were chosen, was it?

One can then, you know, think, and figure out Smith was included on the basis of his pro career, and the other two on the basis of their college careers. And I already stated that Walker and Jackson had great college careers, the implication being that Smith did not.

So, the question was answered, and I offered up a perfectly reasonable rationale for why that was.

Now, if you want to have a "gotcha" moment for me engaging in critical thinking whereby I agree that Walker and Jackson had better college stats, ok, I guess you got me. Now you'll probably think I've contradicted myself by doing the EXACT THING I'VE BEEN DOING THIS ENTIRE THREAD.

Context.

 

[Thunndarr]

Stats don't lie.

JaMarcus Russell Stats | College Football at Sports-Reference.com