LOI loophole (for Bruin or other recruiting specialists)

#1

Lexvol

I'm Your Huckleberry
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#1
So Hubbs thinks it is possible that some may not sign and LOI, but will have a spot held on the roster. Apparently this has been done on the basketball side recently.

Is it possible that some of the legacies can forgo the LOIs if they are promised a spot?

Hubbs doesn't seem to think that the 85 number will be a problem.
 
#2
#2
So Hubbs thinks it is possible that some may not sign and LOI, but will have a spot held on the roster. Apparently this has been done on the basketball side recently.

Is it possible that some of the legacies can forgo the LOIs if they are promised a spot?

Hubbs doesn't seem to think that the 85 number will be a problem.

Have the Berry twins taken an OV yet? :popcorn:
 
#3
#3
Have the Berry twins taken an OV yet? :popcorn:

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#5
#5
Have the Berry twins taken an OV yet? :popcorn:

No and I can def see them being two that wait till August to sign their LOI, which would put them as part of the 2015 class, but allow them to be on the team and on scholarship next year.

This is a great loophole and I think there will be at least 3 or 4 that do this.

Berry's
Medely
TK Jr. (unless he already took his official.)

We really need a list of who has taken their OV's or not yet.
 
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#7
#7
How exactly would that work?

It seems like the LOI is what locks the student athlete and the school into a contract. If they don't sign an LOI, technically there is no contract, but they can sign scholarship papers at a later date. Technically the spot isn't guaranteed. So I assume it doesn't count against your numbers.

The number to pay attention to, in that case, appears to be the AA 85 limit.
 
#8
#8
So…they can't do it if they have taken an OV…..this may get interesting.
 
#9
#9
It seems like the LOI is what locks the student athlete and the school into a contract. If they don't sign an LOI, technically there is no contract, but they can sign scholarship papers at a later date. Technically the spot isn't guaranteed. So I assume it doesn't count against your numbers.

The number to pay attention to, in that case, appears to be the AA 85 limit.

So they can still sign scholarship papers at a later date and not be counted against the signing limit without an LOI and still participate this summer and be on the team for '14?
 
#10
#10
It seems like the LOI is what locks the student athlete and the school into a contract. If they don't sign an LOI, technically there is no contract, but they can sign scholarship papers at a later date. Technically the spot isn't guaranteed. So I assume it doesn't count against your numbers.

The number to pay attention to, in that case, appears to be the AA 85 limit.

They count against the 25 for this year if they are considered an initial counter or "recruited" player. The post's below go over what is considered a recruited player.

Important points:

Initial counters are capped at 25. Tennessee is going to back count 5 to last class, and will count 25 in this class. This much is, I believe, readily accepted and known.

But what is an "initial counter." Counters are normally any student-athlete who receives an athletic scholarship, partial or full. But in sports like football and basketball, counters also include any student-athlete who was recruited and who receives financial aid from the school. This is to prevent abuse by schools who might have "walk-ons" who were recruited then given "non-athletic" scholarships from the financial aid office.

So what is a recruited athlete? A recruited athlete is someone who takes an official visit to the campus, has in-person contact with a coach off-campus, or receives a National Letter of Intent or other written athletic scholarship offer. However, the following will not result in the NCAA considering a prospect a "recruited athlete": Coaches can evaluate prospects any number of times. Coaches can call prospects any number of times. Prospects can take unlimited unofficial visits to the campus. Coaches can make verbal scholarship offers to prospects. None of this would result in the athlete being "recruited."

Athletes who are not "recruited" can receive non-athletically related aid without restriction. I don't know if any of the commits can get any academic scholarships or other forms of aid, but I played a D1 sport on a full academic scholarship (actually got paid after all expenses) from the Lottery Scholarship and University Scholarship and no athletic scholarship. Who knows, with the increased cooperation between the athletic department and academics...

Another way, which I believe is the more likely way.

In football, an athlete generally counts as an initial counter in the academic year he first receives an athletic scholarship. The biggest exception is for midyear enrollees, where the school typically has some flexibility to push the initial counter back to the previous year. But there is a rarer exception that could help athletes enrolling at any time.


An athlete can be put on scholarship and not be counted as an initial counter until the following year if: He was not recruited(defined earlier) and he signs the scholarship after the start of fall practice.



The athlete would count against the limit of 85 overall scholarships that year. But he would not count against the 25 initial counters until the following year. Maybe this is why some guys are signing the financial aid agreements?



I would pay attention to any guys who don't take official visits.
More from the website athleticscholarships.net

15.5.6.3.4 Nonrecruited Student-Athlete Receiving Institutional Financial Aid. [FBS/FCS] A student-athlete not recruited (per Bylaw 15.02.8) by the institution who receives institutional financial aid (based in any degree on athletics ability) after beginning football practice becomes a counter but need not be counted as an initial counter until the next academic year if the institution has reached its initial limit for the year in question. However, the student-athlete shall be considered in the total counter limit for the academic year in which the aid was first received. (Revised: 1/15/11 effective 8/1/11)

The question then becomes "How does Bylaw 15.02.8 define a recruited student athlete?" Here's what it says:

15.02.8 Recruited Student-Athlete. For purposes of Bylaw 15, a recruited student-athlete is a student athlete who, as a prospective student-athlete: (Adopted: 1/15/11 effective 8/1/11)

(a) Was provided an official visit to the institution's campus;

(b) Had an arranged, in-person, off-campus encounter with a member of the institution's coaching staff (including a coach's arranged, in-person, off-campus encounter with the prospective student-athlete or the prospective student-athlete's parents, relatives or legal guardians); or

(c) Was issued a National Letter of Intent or a written offer of athletically related financial aid by the institution for a regular academic term.


It may be important to note here that this definition was only added to Article 15 - Financial Aid in 2011. A definition already existed and is still included in Article 13 - Recruiting which appears to be much broader. Here's what it says.

13.02.13 Recruiting. Recruiting is any solicitation of a prospective student-athlete or a prospective student athlete's relatives (or legal guardians) by an institutional staff member or by a representative of the institution's athletics interests for the purpose of securing the prospective student-athlete's enrollment and ultimate participation in the institution's intercollegiate athletics program.



13.02.13.1 Recruited Prospective Student-Athlete. Actions by staff members or athletics representatives that cause a prospective student-athlete to become a recruited prospective student-athlete at that institution are: (Revised: 1/10/90, 1/11/94 effective 8/1/94, 1/10/05 effective 8/01/05)

(a) Providing the prospective student-athlete with an official visit; (Adopted: 1/11/94 effective 8/1/94)

(b) Having an arranged, in-person, off-campus encounter with the prospective student-athlete or the prospective student-athlete's parents, relatives or legal guardians; (Adopted: 1/11/94 effective 8/1/94)

(c) Initiating or arranging a telephone contact with the prospective student-athlete, the prospective student athlete's relatives or legal guardians on more than one occasion for the purpose of recruitment; or (Revised: 1/11/94 effective 8/1/94)

(d) Issuing a National Letter of Intent or the institution's written offer of athletically related financial aid to the prospective student-athlete. Issuing a written offer of athletically related financial aid to a prospective student-athlete to attend a summer session prior to full-time enrollment does not cause the prospective student-athlete to become recruited. (Adopted: 1/10/05 effective 8/1/05, Revised: 12/13/05)


The exclusion of language similar to 13.02.13 and item c) under 13.02.13.1 when determining what defines a recruited student athlete for the purposes of counter status seems significant. It appears as though an extremely carefully run recruitment with some understanding and participation by the prospect could potentially keep said prospect from being classified as a recruited student athlete under the 15.02.8 definition, thus delaying their initial counter status under 15.5.6.3.4
 
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#11
#11
So they can still sign scholarship papers at a later date and not be counted against the signing limit without an LOI and still participate this summer and be on the team for '14?

I'm assuming that is what has been done on the basketball side….but I'm not a recruiting guy.
 
#12
#12
Seriously, the only way I see this happening is greyshirts and walk-ons. I'm not sold that there's a way around the initial qualifier rule.

This talk of a loophole isn't necessarily crazy talk, but I will be pleasantly surprised if the staff has found a way to get more guys on board.
 
#13
#13
They count against the 25 for this year if they are considered an initial counter or "recruited" player. The post's below go over what is considered a recruited player.


More from the website athleticscholarships.net

Muchos gracias, Eric.
 
#14
#14
Do we have 6 legacies in this class? Bates, Creamer, Berry x2, Wharton, Kelly.

I always thought that there was a way to work around these with scholarships. If they are on a different type of financial aid do they count against the total scholarships?

This would be 6 scholarships freed up. Truly believe there is some sort of work around with the legacies.

Legacy Scholarship Program at UT for example.
 
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#15
#15
Do we have 6 legacies in this class? Bates, Creamer, Berry x2, Wharton, Kelly. I always thought that there was a way to work around these with scholarships. If they are on a different type of financial aid do they count against the total scholarships?

When it comes to football…they count against the 85. I don't know if they count against the SEC 25.
 
#18
#18
No and I can def see them being two that wait till August to sign their LOI, which would put them as part of the 2015 class, but allow them to be on the team and on scholarship next year.

This is a great loophole and I think there will be at least 3 or 4 that do this.

Berry's
Medely
TK Jr. (unless he already took his official.)

We really need a list of who has taken their OV's or not yet.

If this is really the case, I think it's great for solving the numbers crunch this year. My issue is that you're just kicking the problem on down the road and setting yourself up for an even worse situation in the '15 class.
 
#19
#19
With the attrition we have had and the graduating Class 85 limit should not be a problem.
 
#20
#20
No and I can def see them being two that wait till August to sign their LOI, which would put them as part of the 2015 class, but allow them to be on the team and on scholarship next year.

This is a great loophole and I think there will be at least 3 or 4 that do this.

Berry's
Medely
TK Jr. (unless he already took his official.)

We really need a list of who has taken their OV's or not yet.

Essentially the same thing Johnathon Johnson did
 
#21
#21
If this is really the case, I think it's great for solving the numbers crunch this year. My issue is that you're just kicking the problem on down the road and setting yourself up for an even worse situation in the '15 class.

You certainly wouldn't do it with a borderline prospect, but if you are making room for a Garrett/Jackson type, it solves an immediate problem.
 
#22
#22
Of the 31 commits we currently have, the only ones who have taken an OV to Tennessee is:

Coleman Thomas-signed
Moseley-signed
Mixon
Weatherd
Raulerson
Lambert
Pearson
Blair-signed
Hendrix

All the other commits have not OV or do not show an OV planned of yet.
 
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#23
#23
If this is really the case, I think it's great for solving the numbers crunch this year. My issue is that you're just kicking the problem on down the road and setting yourself up for an even worse situation in the '15 class.

Well all it does is eat into our 2015 # of 25 and obviously they would count toward the 85 that year. But it is very likely that we are only going to be able to sign 20-22 in 2015 anyway due to the lack of seniors on next years roster.

So why not push 3 or 5 guys from this year toward that class, especially while recruiting is so hot? You can get them on roster and start developing those players.

If we bring in ~34ish players this year then we can redshirt 15 or so of them and they would go towards that class anyway.
 
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#24
#24
Of the 31 commits we currently have, the only ones who have taken an OV to Tennessee is:

Coleman Thomas-signed
Moseley-signed
Mixon
Weatherd
Raulerson
Lambert
Pearson
Blair-signed
Hendrix

All the other commits have not OV or do not show an OV planned of yet.

Amazing….
 
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#25
#25
My understanding is if it is not a recruited player, meaning a player that the coaches have had face to face contact with off campus, they can qualify to sign there LOI in August. With the number of players that have left, Posey, Dallas, and I think Meredith for Medical reasons, kicking the can down the road is not a bad idea.
 
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