Let's Talk About Sin

[Vol8188]

Called you out?
I've already sited examples of your inferences. I am a Christian and I believe the bible. That doesn't change the errant nature of your questioning. Your loaded questions, or your objection being a genetic fallacy. I don't expect you to admit this, so what's the point?

Hearing you defend yourself reminds me of Clinton, "that depends on what the meaning of the word 'is' is."

 

[Roustabout]

These religions either believe that all people who do what is right are saved, or that no afterlife exists.

So, you're saying that this isn't exclusive? and how is "what's right" determined? Is it arbitrary? No. Not even sure you want to argue this. Again, if you want to start a thread on this, I'm game.

Saying "no afterlife exists" is not inclusive since most world religions say there is. Do you understand the law of non-contradiction? It EXCLUDES the claims of nearly all world religions.

Nor did you answer any of mine. And I haven't answered your question because your back to philosophy again. With you "what is truth" question. That's not what I'm hear to debate.

The question I posited isn't a philosphical question. Although this discusssion, whether you like it or not, has philosophical implications.

I am not surprised you don't want to go down that path.
Essentially your argument boils down to "I don't like your God." You introduced logic, (any logical person.....) and then you refuse to account for this logic because you don't want a philosophical discussion. And then when someone tries to show you that your logic is faulty, you resort to complaining about the length of posts. And who is off topic here?

Your argument is akin to me saying that President Obama doesn't exist because I don't agree with his policies. It's a faulty emotional appeal. I've tried to sincerely walk you through some things and challenge you to examine your way of thinking. You refuse. You are an antagonist and have as much as admitted that you wouldn't follow Christ even if it was true.

 

[Vol8188]

So, you're saying that this isn't exclusive? and how is "what's right" determined? Is it arbitrary? No. Not even sure you want to argue this. Again, if you want to start a thread on this, I'm game.

Saying "no afterlife exists" is not inclusive since most world religions say there is. Do you understand the law of non-contradiction? It EXCLUDES the claims of nearly all world religions.


The question I posited isn't a philosphical question. Although this discusssion, whether you like it or not, has philosophical implications.

I am not surprised you don't want to go down that path.
Essentially your argument boils down to "I don't like your God." You introduced logic, (any logical person.....) and then you refuse to account for this logic because you don't want a philosophical discussion. And then when someone tries to show you that your logic is faulty, you resort to complaining about the length of posts. And who is off topic here?

Your argument is akin to me saying that President Obama doesn't exist because I don't agree with his policies. It's a faulty emotional appeal. I've tried to sincerely walk you through some things and challenge you to examine your way of thinking. You refuse. You are an antagonist and have as much as admitted that you wouldn't follow Christ even if it was true.

1. I don't want to go down this road because I don't have the free time to explain to you that logic, justice, and opinions on right and wrong can all be formed without the influence of a god.

2. If you really believe Hinduism has any form of "exclusivity" then you know absolutely nothing about Hinduism. So please drop the ignorant claims about other religions.

3. My argument is not that your god doesn't exist (although I do not believe he does, but that is a different argument). I never stated, "your is doesn't exist because he makes horribly bad decisions about who gets into heaven". My argument is simply that your gods system for selecting who he condemns is an extremely unfair one. And that I could not personally worship any god who would send good people to hell, simply for being born in the wrong place.

 

[Roustabout]

Hearing you defend yourself reminds me of Clinton, "that depends on what the meaning of the word 'is' is."

Again, a quip that serves nothing but to attack me and not address the content of what I have presented. An ad-hominem. It exposes you. So please, keep it up.

Again this question, A person jumps out of an airplane at 10k feet without a parachute. Why did they die? This directly related to your objection about people who never hear of Christ.

Some, (most) would say that the person died because they didn't have a parachute. But the reality is that this person broke the law of gravity. In this analogy, I would equate the parachute to the Gospel. Essentially, what you are saying is that even if offered the parachute you wouldn't put it on, because somebody on another plane may or may not have a parachute. If we look at the Bible, it says that the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. And it says that God desires NONE to perish.

You see God as intentionally witholding grace from some. As if it is some cosmic game of cat and mouse. You assume that He will send good people to Hell for no other reason that they were born in the wrong place. You can't account for your logic or morals, yet you expect me EXPLAIN something to you. You say you don't to talk philosophy, but you are dealing with epistemological questions (WHY?), and refusing to deal with the essential ontological issues first.

 

[Vol8188]

Again, a quip that serves nothing but to attack me and not address the content of what I have presented. An ad-hominem. It exposes you. So please, keep it up.

Again this question, A person jumps out of an airplane at 10k feet without a parachute. Why did they die? This directly related to your objection about people who never hear of Christ.

Some, (most) would say that the person died because they didn't have a parachute. But the reality is that this person broke the law of gravity. In this analogy, I would equate the parachute to the Gospel. Essentially, what you are saying is that even if offered the parachute you wouldn't put it on, because somebody on another plane may or may not have a parachute. If we look at the Bible, it says that the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. And it says that God desires NONE to perish.

You see God as intentionally witholding grace from some. As if it is some cosmic game of cat and mouse. You assume that He will send good people to Hell for no other reason that they were born in the wrong place. You can't account for your logic or morals, yet you expect me EXPLAIN something to you. You say you don't to talk philosophy, but you are dealing with epistemological questions (WHY?), and refusing to deal with the essential ontological issues first.

With your parachute theory in mind, how often have you truly listened and opened your heart to the message of Allah?

 

[Roustabout]

1. I don't want to go down this road because I don't have the free time to explain to you that logic, justice, and opinions on right and wrong can all be formed without the influence of a god.

How convenient. Your 5,100 post say otherwise. And, BTW, your claim is also a strawman. I agree that people (atheists, etc) can form opinions on such things. The existance (ontology) of those is quite another. And if you can account for their objective existance, then sir, you will have accomplished the greatest philosophical feet of the millenia. But based on what you've presented, you haven't. It's arbitrary.

2. If you really believe Hinduism has any form of "exclusivity" then you know absolutely nothing about Hinduism. So please drop the ignorant claims about other religions.

Do you know who Ravi Zacharias is? I'd say he knows more than the both of us combined.

3. My argument is not that your god doesn't exist (although I do not believe he does, but that is a different argument). I never stated, "your is doesn't exist because he makes horribly bad decisions about who gets into heaven". My argument is simply that your gods system for selecting who he condemns is an extremely unfair one.

Based on your version of moral relativism? Seriously?

 

[Lexvol]

Though this is really way off topic in relation to the OP's original intent….Christianity does have a real problem with exclusivity considering that their are still people on earth that live and die every day who have never heard the name, Jesus. It is hard to reconcile this with the evangelical messengers out there.

That is just today…and doesn't account for the millions that lived and died in ignorance of Christ over the last 2013 years.

 

[Roustabout]

With your parachute theory in mind, how often have you truly listened and opened your heart to the message of Allah?

I don't think that is a bad question per se.
I've actually studied some on Islam, its formation, and the life of Muhammed. And, yes, I've got great reasons to reject it as valid. Again, perhaps a good topic for another thread. Why not Zues, why not Mithra, why not Islam?? I'm game.

I would say that IF Islam is true, the of course one SHOULD follow it.

 

[Roustabout]

Though this is really way off topic in relation to the OP's original intent….Christianity does have a real problem with exclusivity considering that their are still people on earth that live and die every day who have never heard the name, Jesus. It is hard to reconcile this with the evangelical messengers out there.

That is just today…and doesn't account for the millions that lived and died in ignorance of Christ over the last 2013 years.

I'm more concerned for people like 8188, who do hear and trample underfoot God's grace.

And Lex, perhaps those messengers have it wrong. Not saying they do, but that's a pretty broad brush you are painting with.

 

[Vol8188]

I don't think that is a bad question per se.
I've actually studied some on Islam, its formation, and the life of Muhammed. And, yes, I've got great reasons to reject it as valid. Again, perhaps a good topic for another thread. Why not Zues, why not Mithra, why not Islam?? I'm game.

I would say that IF Islam is true, the of course one SHOULD follow it.

And do you believe this is true of most Christians? Do you truly believe most Christians actually try to open themselves to other religions?

 

[Vol8188]

How convenient. Your 5,100 post say otherwise. And, BTW, your claim is also a strawman. I agree that people (atheists, etc) can form opinions on such things. The existance (ontology) of those is quite another. And if you can account for their objective existance, then sir, you will have accomplished the greatest philosophical feet of the millenia. But based on what you've presented, you haven't. It's arbitrary.


Do you know who Ravi Zacharias is? I'd say he knows more than the both of us combined.


Based on your version of moral relativism? Seriously?

What does he have to do with exclusivity and Hinduism? Hindus allow for the worship of any god or even no go. That's as none exclusive as it gets.

 

[Roustabout]

And do you believe this is true of most Christians? Do you truly believe most Christians actually try to open themselves to other religions?

No. But, the problem here my friend, is this doesn't change what is TRUE. Either Christianity is true or it is not. Period. If no one on earth believed, it wouldn't change whether or not it is true. And if everyone believed, the same applies.

What does he have to do with exclusivity and Hinduism? Hindus allow for the worship of any god or even no go. That's as none exclusive as it gets.

You either have time or you don't. Based on your participation in two threads, I simply don't trust you are being honest.
But a quick answer. Hinduism does not allow for the worship of ANY God, except on THEIR terms. Otherwise, its a violation of the law of non-contradiction, which is actually a good point. You invoked logic earlier. Why would you even consider a religion that is wrought with self-defeating premises?
So, let's just follow it through. Based on your premise, a Hindu can worship the God of the Bible. Yet, to do so means that they would have to follow the exclusive claims of the Bible. So, eHindus believe that A and not A are both true? Wow. But of course they don't beleive that. A devout Hindu would tell you Christianity is NOT the only way, which is an exclusive claim, btw. It EXCLUDES the claims of Christianity. But hey, you aren't going to believe me. You've already made up your mind.

Oh, and Ravi was born, as you would say, in the wrong place. And today he is the leading Christian philosopher in the world. His book, Jesus Among Other Gods, addresses a lot of what you ask.

 

[OJ]

1. I don't want to go down this road because I don't have the free time to explain to you that logic, justice, and opinions on right and wrong can all be formed without the influence of a god.

2. If you really believe Hinduism has any form of "exclusivity" then you know absolutely nothing about Hinduism. So please drop the ignorant claims about other religions.

3. My argument is not that your god doesn't exist (although I do not believe he does, but that is a different argument). I never stated, "your is doesn't exist because he makes horribly bad decisions about who gets into heaven". My argument is simply that your gods system for selecting who he condemns is an extremely unfair one. And that I could not personally worship any god who would send good people to hell, simply for being born in the wrong place.

You don't go to Hell or heaven by being good or bad.

 

[Vol8188]

No. But, the problem here my friend, is this doesn't change what is TRUE. Either Christianity is true or it is not. Period. If no one on earth believed, it wouldn't change whether or not it is true. And if everyone believed, the same applies.


You either have time or you don't. Based on your participation in two threads, I simply don't trust you are being honest.
But a quick answer. Hinduism does not allow for the worship of ANY God, except on THEIR terms. Otherwise, its a violation of the law of non-contradiction, which is actually a good point. You invoked logic earlier. Why would you even consider a religion that is wrought with self-defeating premises?
So, let's just follow it through. Based on your premise, a Hindu can worship the God of the Bible. Yet, to do so means that they would have to follow the exclusive claims of the Bible. So, eHindus believe that A and not A are both true? Wow. But of course they don't beleive that. A devout Hindu would tell you Christianity is NOT the only way, which is an exclusive claim, btw. It EXCLUDES the claims of Christianity. But hey, you aren't going to believe me. You've already made up your mind.

1. The point is if Christians are close minded to other religions why would you expect anyone else to be open minded to yours? Therefore why would you expect a Muslim or Buddhist to covert, if most Christians wouldn't consider converting? Which leads to the fact that many people go to hell simply for being born in the wrong place.

2. Because Christianity isn't exclusive Hinduism can't be exclusive? Great argument!

 

[Vol8188]

You don't go to Hell or heaven by being good or bad.

And that's my issue with your religion. Even if I thought your god were potentially real, I disagree with his justification for salvation.

 

[Roustabout]

1. The point is if Christians are close minded to other religions why would you expect anyone else to be open minded to yours? Therefore why would you expect a Muslim or Buddhist to covert, if most Christians wouldn't consider converting? Which leads to the fact that many people go to hell simply for being born in the wrong place.

I've already asked you this and you didn't answer. Does truth matter?
Now you have simply expanded the genetic fallacy to a consequential fallacy. "Any logical thinking person......."

Because Christianity isn't exclusive Hinduism can't be exclusive? Great argument!

What?

 

[OJ]

With your parachute theory in mind, how often have you truly listened and opened your heart to the message of Allah?

Any religion that does not have Christ as their savior is of satanic origin.

 

[Vol8188]

Any religion that does not have Christ as their savior is of satanic origin.

Thanks Leviticus.

 

[OJ]

And that's my issue with your religion. Even if I thought your god were potentially real, I disagree with his justification for salvation.

What part of his justification by grace through faith do you not agree with?

 

[Vol8188]

I've already asked you this and you didn't answer. Does truth matter?
Now you have simply expanded the genetic fallacy to a consequential fallacy. "Any logical thinking person......."


What?

1. How is "does truth matter" related to the closed minded nature of nearly all religious groups?
2. Your argument was that because Christianity is exclusive, you couldn't worship your god and be a Hindu. That's an extremely weak argument to try and claim that Hinduism is exclusive.

 

[W.TN.Orange Blood]

And that's my issue with your religion. Even if I thought your god were potentially real, I disagree with his justification for salvation.

You're an idiot.....but the Christian God loves you in spite of that fact. You choose the path you go down. You want to reject God's Way & His Plan for salvation that's just fine & that's on you. Just don't sit around your house & blame the Christian God that it was His fault that you are sent to Hell for your logic & reasoning & for rejecting His Way to salvation. God provided a way out of that terrible place called Hell & it's through the Blood of The Anointed Christ to bear all the sins of the World even your sins & your rejection of the True Living God. You will be given a chance to account for your rejection of Christ to God. You will have a chance to tell God why you still reject His Son at the Time of Judgment for all that don't believe. I know you will read this & it will go right over your head because Satan has blinded you to the Truth that's in Christ. All people of the World are called but few chose to believe the Truth of God which is in Christ Jesus.

 

[DinkinFlicka]

Nothing like starting a sermon with "you're an idiot" right before unnecessarily capitalizing every other word in your testimony.

 

[OJ]

Nothing like starting a sermon with "you're an idiot" right before unnecessarily capitalizing every other word in your testimony.

Glad you pointed out the unnecessarily capitalizing. I didn't catch it when I first read it.

 

[W.TN.Orange Blood]

Nothing like starting a sermon with "you're an idiot" right before unnecessarily capitalizing every other word in your testimony.

:loco: Thanks. But some people need to know that they are an idiot for their rejection of what is God's Plan of salvation whether we like it or not. You know that God is Total Love. We are free to choose or to reject that way to God that He believes is the best Way back to Him to have a relationship with. Jesus said that He & the Father are One & no man gets to the Father but to come through Him because, now get this ringer dinger, Jesus was God in the Flesh. What a shocker to believe that God was in the Flesh in Christ.....a human just like you & me with all the temptations as you & me. People just won't believe that certain way & that's just fine w/God. He provides a way out of Hell & it's up to you to receive that message or not....it's fine w/God....it's a choice that a person makes.

 

[DinkinFlicka]

So am I an idiot, WTN?

I'm an honest, stand up guy who tries to do right by people, good or bad. I just don't bow to a god.

Are you more deserving of heaven than I am? I'd wager I do as much good for my fellow man as you do.