Lets look out our situation

#51
#51
Fulmer was anything but a game day maestro, but he got the job done. You don't have to be if you bring in the talent and coach them up properly.

Take your pick for your team to coach, and let's say you've never coached anything in your life:

Team 1: All seniors, with experience, but absolutely no talent.

Team 2: All freshmen, but the most elite, talented group of players in the country.

Personally I'd pick team 2, because serious talent can often overshadow experience and lack of talent.

I agree with your point and think we'll get to see that this fall in some instances. Now just imagine when our talent laden team is constantly full of upper classmen. You'd have to be a terrible coach to lose many games with that kind of arsenal.
 
#52
#52
Fulmer was anything but a game day maestro, but he got the job done. You don't have to be if you bring in the talent and coach them up properly.

He got it done for a while, no doubt. I wonder what the average level of talent and coaching in the SEC looks like in Phil's prime vs today.
 
#53
#53
but in a different way

I consistently see the argument that Butch Jones will inevitably be successful here because he was successful at others stops during his coaching career. It is true that he was successful at Central Michigan and again at Cincinnati. However, both times he took over an already successful program, so he basically continued the status quo. At Tennessee that is not true. Essentially he is going to have to rebuild a program, which is something he has yet to do. So far, he is doing a fairly good job, barring some setbacks in game day coaching

To add to this idea that he will be successful solely based on his success at lower level programs, lets look at it from the standpoint of a boxer

Lets say this boxer starts of as a middle weight fighter. He has trained his entire career, so far, to fight boxers of his own weight class and ability. He has shown that he has done well and pretty much handled that level of competition with ease. One day, this boxer gets a chance to move up in weight class. He sees it as the opportunity to challenge himself and prove to himself that he is the best. But, once he does, he realizes that the competition he used to fight is different from what he is fighting now. His new competition is faster, stronger, and more well coached than any boxer he has seen. He notices that is old moves no longer work and that he must get bigger, faster, and stronger to even be able to compete with his new opponents. He notices that the success he was almost guaranteed at his old weight is not as easy at his new weight. But his fans don't see it that way. They look to him as being the dominant fighter like he was before but does not take into account the level he is expected to fight at now. They refuse to believe that he might be just an average fighter at his new weight. They proclaim him champ even before his first match and even after he lost 7 matches out of 12. They point to his one knockout of a favored fighter that he will soon be the next champ and hold the belt high in the ring. Others know that only time will tell if he will be able to conquer his new level of competition and that any shouts of impending glory is simply premature

So, in closing, none of us who show doubt in Jones' abilities is not that we hate him or don't want him to succeed. Its that we have seen this before, heard the same promises, seen the same efforts, seen the same results. We want Jones to succeed, but basing your idea of his future success based on being good at beating lower level competition is asinine. Until he can prove himself at this level and win consistently, what he did at Cincinnati and Central Michigan is irrelevant

:hi:

Basically, he is Phil Fulmer Lite at this point IMO. Fulmer minus the calories of SEC experience and UT ties.

Everyone likes him, he is doing a nice job in recruiting, but it remains to be seen how he handles rebuilding a program(much like Fulmer had to regroup after Cutcliffe left).
 
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#54
#54
Basically, he is Phil Fulmer Lite at this point IMO. Fulmer minus the calories of SEC experience and UT ties.

Everyone likes him, he is doing a nice job in recruiting, but it remains to be seen how he handles rebuilding a program(much like Fulmer had to regroup after Cutcliffe left).

Well hell, some people don't even want to give CBJ time. They are crying and complaining and he hasn't even started his second year. They are crying and complaining that we lost the Vandy game eventhough we had one injured freshman QB starting and no WR's. He just got his first class on campus...his first class! And we have jackwads starting threads and complaining. We have some of the most idiotic and dramatic fans. I would expect this from AU, UGA, and even Bama, but not UT fans.
 
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#55
#55
Fulmer was anything but a game day maestro, but he got the job done. You don't have to be if you bring in the talent and coach them up properly.

But Fulmer had an OC and DC that were. That's where Fulmer benefited

That's why I'm not as concerned about Jones as I am his coordinators
 
#56
#56
What Saban did at Toledo is irrelevant. He has proven himself at this level.

So since we are comparing Saban And Jones, that means Jones should go 12-0 this year and play for the SECC?

I mean since Saban did that same exact thing

don't remember,but did saban go 12-0 at lsu in his second year?
 
#57
#57
Well hell, some people don't even want to give CBJ time. They are crying and complaining and he hasn't even started his second year. They are crying and complaining that we lost the Vandy game eventhough we had one injured freshman QB starting and no WR's. He just got his first class on campus...his first class! And we have jackwads starting threads and complaining. We have some of the most idiotic and dramatic fans. I would expect this from AU, UGA, and even Bama, but not UT fans.

No more idiotic than the threads comparing him to Neyland and proclaiming him the savior of the program, even after going 5-7
 
#58
#58
Ok we can debate this issue till Jesus comes...... Yes there are a lot of examples of coaches in college football or college basketball that are HOT coaches or ones that has success at other levels be it FCS or Div II that have done well ( Jim tressell went from FCS to FBS and Jim harbaugh who did the same thing
You have the opposite of coaches who are HOT or have a really good rep and make the jump and it does not work out tommy west who coached here at UTC and had moderate success with a horrible program went to Clemson and was mediocre at best. Butch might lead us to an overall record of 60-17 over the next years or he might be mediocre and we go 32-27??? Good post but you NEVER KNOW about a coach and what he can do even jerry Kelly was not a sure thing for ND.
 
#60
#60
But Fulmer had an OC and DC that were. That's where Fulmer benefited

That's why I'm not as concerned about Jones as I am his coordinators

Chavis was one of the best maybe one of the top 5 in all DCs. Cut was a very good OC. I agree with ALL this!!!! Our coordinators are OK. But not great. Do not know about our positional coaches though
 
#62
#62
Butch lost to us when he was at Cincinnati, thus proving that less talented often lose to higher talent. But, he took his lower talented team and won 8 straight the rest of that season. Seems he has the ability to learn from his mistakes and grow. If so, he should have learned a lot from 2013.
 
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#64
#64
But yet you started this thread all about Jones.:)

Again, this thread was not that I thought he couldn't get it done, but that it was premature to claim he will, based solely upon his past

Its to early to say he will or he won't

I'm just not ready to induct him into the football hall of fame yet
 
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#65
#65
Butch lost to us when he was at Cincinnati, thus proving that less talented often lose to higher talent. But, he took his lower talented team and won 8 straight the rest of that season. Seems he has the ability to learn from his mistakes and grow. If so, he should have learned a lot from 2013.

I think he learned a lot from the Georgia game and used it in the Carolina game. He burned that clock on the last drive and didn't give Spurrier time

He left way to much time on the clock in the Georgia game and I think he knew it was a factor in us eventually losing that game
 
#66
#66
Rarely does a coach start in the big leagues such as the SEC. Most coaches that are at this level have started small and built their resume at smaller schools and worked their way to the top by showing they had what it took to compete in their respective division.
We all know that simply succeeding at one level doesn't guarantee you will at the next but it can certainly be used as an indicator of what may come.
I get tired of people saying that so n so is from a small school and although he was successful there he won't cut it in the SEC cause the talent level is much higher. It's fairly easy to see who passes the "eye test" with their work ethic, history, level of recruiting, respectability and so on. The SEC doesn't make the coach great...the coaches make the SEC great.
 
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#67
#67
Saban had stops at Michigan State, LSU and the NFL before Alabama

Saban was successful in college not the NFL, along with Spurrier

That proves in itself that success at one level does not translate to success at another

Saban wasn't very good at MSU for the first three seasons. Their records were 6–5–1, 6–6, and 7–5. I know the records were better than CBJ first season, but The Big10 schedule is no where near an SEC schedule.

I do agree with you that success at one level doesn't guarantee success at another. It's just to early to tell, IMO.

Improvement has to be seen for an accurate judgement.
 
#68
#68
OP utter bilge I say. The people who know UT football, ex players and coaches, almost to a person believe CBJ will succeed. Not expecting a lot from this young team at this point. The entire coaching staff is a blue collar lunch bucket crowd, in the grind of the SEC I think it takes this approach to succeed one practice ,one game at a time. Even with the QB injuries I saw a big improvement except for the O line from the AP game to the Kentucky game. That is all you can ask for.
 
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#69
#69
To "rebuild a program" he just needs enough time to bring in quality talent, which he appears to be doing thus far. Once he has talent at his disposal, as was stated by the OP, he has already proven he knows football well enough to win.

I think this is why folks are already confident Jones will be successful here.
 
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#70
#70
Awful lot of words typed in this thread. I'll wait for the movie. Anyone know when it'll be out?
 
#71
#71
but in a different way

I consistently see the argument that Butch Jones will inevitably be successful here because he was successful at others stops during his coaching career. It is true that he was successful at Central Michigan and again at Cincinnati. However, both times he took over an already successful program, so he basically continued the status quo. At Tennessee that is not true. Essentially he is going to have to rebuild a program, which is something he has yet to do. So far, he is doing a fairly good job, barring some setbacks in game day coaching

To add to this idea that he will be successful solely based on his success at lower level programs, lets look at it from the standpoint of a boxer

Lets say this boxer starts of as a middle weight fighter. He has trained his entire career, so far, to fight boxers of his own weight class and ability. He has shown that he has done well and pretty much handled that level of competition with ease. One day, this boxer gets a chance to move up in weight class. He sees it as the opportunity to challenge himself and prove to himself that he is the best. But, once he does, he realizes that the competition he used to fight is different from what he is fighting now. His new competition is faster, stronger, and more well coached than any boxer he has seen. He notices that is old moves no longer work and that he must get bigger, faster, and stronger to even be able to compete with his new opponents. He notices that the success he was almost guaranteed at his old weight is not as easy at his new weight. But his fans don't see it that way. They look to him as being the dominant fighter like he was before but does not take into account the level he is expected to fight at now. They refuse to believe that he might be just an average fighter at his new weight. They proclaim him champ even before his first match and even after he lost 7 matches out of 12. They point to his one knockout of a favored fighter that he will soon be the next champ and hold the belt high in the ring. Others know that only time will tell if he will be able to conquer his new level of competition and that any shouts of impending glory is simply premature

So, in closing, none of us who show doubt in Jones' abilities is not that we hate him or don't want him to succeed. Its that we have seen this before, heard the same promises, seen the same efforts, seen the same results. We want Jones to succeed, but basing your idea of his future success based on being good at beating lower level competition is asinine. Until he can prove himself at this level and win consistently, what he did at Cincinnati and Central Michigan is irrelevant

:hi:

What exactly is your motive? You constantly try to undermine Jones. I don't know how any body could expect to do anything more than what he is doing. Just because you want to be pessimistic doesn't mean people who support this staff are "idiots".
 
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#72
#72
I don't know exactly what some of you guys are looking for. We were two miscues away from being 7-5 last year. Both of those losses are on a single player, not the coach. You can blame the coaches for those losses, but in the end it was the player(s) that lost those games.
 
#73
#73
Well hell, some people don't even want to give CBJ time. They are crying and complaining and he hasn't even started his second year. They are crying and complaining that we lost the Vandy game eventhough we had one injured freshman QB starting and no WR's. He just got his first class on campus...his first class! And we have jackwads starting threads and complaining. We have some of the most idiotic and dramatic fans. I would expect this from AU, UGA, and even Bama, but not UT fans.

Well hell, some people are claiming Jones is the next Jesus Shuttlesworth of college football coaches too.

Most bipolar fan base in the country for sure.

One thing is for sure, there should never, EVER be any excuse for UT to lose to Vandy.
 

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