Let's all take a step back and look at this objectively...

#1

zidanefan

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#1
I'm seeing a lot of "Butch has lost the team" and "Butch can't motivate the team to play" posts. Three weeks ago it was, "I've never seen any team play harder for a UT coach."

So, let's take a step back and look this objectively.

The Good

Butch has proven to be a good recruiter. He has rebuilt UT and added talent all over the field, including some All-American talent at certain positions.

Butch seems to be a good/great talent evaluator. Sutton and Hall are good examples.

Butch can clearly motivate his teams, and his players love playing for him. I don't think anyone can argue with this, although (as addressed below) this is only part of the winning equation.

Butch has given us some memorable wins. FL and GA this year, beating Spurrier, etc...

The Bad

We hired a coach who was the signature win of our former coach, Dooley, who is widely considered the worst UT coach in history, maybe one of the worst HC's in college football history. Before you dismiss this statement, let's take a look at an alarming revelation on this subject.

A few weeks back, Daniel Hood revealed on Pennington's Sunday show that, when Butch arrived, he had to be shown why UT knew every offensive play whether they would run or pass. There was a flaw in his offensive system that none of his staff had picked up on to that point. That's downright disturbing, and none of you who get up in arms about people criticizing Butch can overlook this.

Bizarre in-game decisions and clock mismanagement have plagued Butch his entire career. Everyone has pointed this out, from posters on VN to talking heads on TV and sports radio. We heard about it from Cinci fans upon his arrival on the The Hill. We've had to endure it the last few years against OK, FL, etc...

Where does that leave us?

These bad traits are not the hallmarks of a championship level coach... sorry, VN.

Many on here cheered and laughed when Muschamp got hired at SC. I asked why, given that Muschamp has beaten Butch both times they've faced one another. Many of us got ridiculed for suggesting that Muschamp has Butch's number.

Well, Butch got out-coached yesterday by Muschamp, whose team has vastly inferior talent. Butch had an extra week of preparation to boot.

The deficiency of the offensive scheme has taken its toll. Winning the games based on the players' iron will, determination, and sheer talent could only take us so far. Abernathy's phenomenal rundown in the A&M game was an excellent microcosm of the first half of the season. Sadly, his hamstring pull-up in the AL game may be the same for the second half of the season.

There's a fine line between realism and pessimism. Some here labeled "negavols" are simply miserable schmucks who only complain and come post when UT loses. Others, however, simply see what we have in our head coach: a great recruiter and motivational speaker, by all accounts a really great man, but a mid-major tier coach, at best.

When Butch was hired, the "Dooley's signature win" concern was blaring in my head. I think I even made a post to that effect. But, I'm the type who makes the best of things... realistically optimistic.

What could make this interesting is if Butch were to dump his O scheme, turn Shoop loose on the D scheme, and hire someone like Kiffin (he's a tool, yes, but he's a genius of an OC) to just install/completely control the O. Butch would then recruit and CEO the operation.

Of course, that won't happen. He has made it abundantly clear that he believes in his system, and if he loses another game this year he won't have that kind of time anyway.

I've been excited for each of the last few seasons under Butch. I've been thrilled with the recruiting. I've cheered and celebrated and always want to see the Vols win. But, I'm not blindly optimistic.

So, my question for all of those who will undoubtedly call my post idiotic, moronic, devoid of logic, negavolic, etc... is this:

What evidence do you have from Butch's coaching - I mean on-the-field results - that he is an elite coach, capable of winning SEC championships and competing for National Championships?
 
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#2
#2
Honestly, it's year four and I have never been sold on Butch as a game day coach.

I do however feel that the offensive line has truly bottlenecked the offense. If we had a decent offensive line we probably win last night.

That being said, this offensive scheme is not very good and the play calling has been bland.

Anyone can see that.
 
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#3
#3
The coaches had two weeks to prepare for the juggernaut Gamecocks with a high school senior at QB.

I think the coaches took enough steps back for all of us.
 
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#4
#4
As far as the narrative that he is a good recruiter, to me the sign of a good recruiter at this school is someone who consistently wins SEC recruiting battles outside of Tennessee recruits and legacy recruits. He hasn't been spectacular outside of that, and any decent recruiting coach should be locking those kids up here anyways.
 
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#5
#5
As far as the narrative that he is a good recruiter, to me the sign of a good recruiter at this school is someone who consistently wins SEC recruiting battles outside of Tennessee recruits and legacy recruits. He hasn't been spectacular outside of that, and any decent recruiting coach should be locking those kids up here anyways.

That's a fair point. He's benefited from a number of legacies.
 
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#6
#6
"Butch can clearly motivate his teams, and his players love playing for him."

I think you could say that in Years 1-3, but I have not seen any evidence of this whatsoever this season. In fact, think this is the biggest problem with this team. They do not seem to be inspired to play for their coach this season. They have come out flat in every game thus far.
 
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#7
#7
I'm seeing a lot of "Butch has lost the team" and "Butch can't motivate the team to play" posts. Three weeks ago it was, "I've never seen any team play harder for a UT coach."

So, let's take a step back and look this objectively.

The Good

Butch has proven to be a good recruiter. He has rebuilt UT and added talent all over the field, including some All-American talent at certain positions.

Butch seems to be a good/great talent evaluator. Sutton and Hall are good examples.

Butch can clearly motivate his teams, and his players love playing for him. I don't think anyone can argue with this, although (as addressed below) this is only part of the winning equation.

Butch has given us some memorable wins. FL and GA this year, beating Spurrier, etc...

The Bad

We hired a coach who was the signature win of our former coach, Dooley, who is widely considered the worst UT coach in history, maybe one of the worst HC's in college football history. Before you dismiss this statement, let's take a look at an alarming revelation on this subject.

A few weeks back, Daniel Hood revealed on Pennington's Sunday show that, when Butch arrived, he had to be shown why UT knew every offensive play whether they would run or pass. There was a flaw in his offensive system that none of his staff had picked up on to that point. That's downright disturbing, and none of you who get up in arms about people criticizing Butch can overlook this.

Bizarre in-game decisions and clock mismanagement have plagued Butch his entire career. Everyone has pointed this out, from posters on VN to talking heads on TV and sports radio. We heard about it from Cinci fans upon his arrival on the The Hill. We've had to endure it the last few years against OK, FL, etc...

Where does that leave us?

These bad traits are not the hallmarks of a championship level coach... sorry, VN.

Many on here cheered and laughed when Muschamp got hired at SC. I asked why, given that Muschamp has beaten Butch both times they've faced one another. Many of us got ridiculed for suggesting that Muschamp has Butch's number.

Well, Butch got out-coached yesterday by Muschamp, whose team has vastly inferior talent. Butch had an extra week of preparation to boot.

The deficiency of the offensive scheme has taken its toll. Winning the games based on the players' iron will, determination, and sheer talent could only take us so far. Abernathy's phenomenal rundown in the A&M game was an excellent microcosm of the first half of the season. Sadly, his hamstring pull-up in the AL game may be the same for the second half of the season.

There's a fine line between realism and pessimism. Some here labeled "negavols" are simply miserable schmucks who only complain and come post when UT loses. Others, however, simply see what we have in our head coach: a great recruiter and motivational speaker, by all accounts a really great man, but a mid-major tier coach, at best.

When Butch was hired, the "Dooley's signature win" concern was blaring in my head. I think I even made a post to that effect. But, I'm the type who makes the best of things... realistically optimistic.

What could make this interesting is if Butch were to dump his O scheme, turn Shoop loose on the D scheme, and hire someone like Kiffin (he's a tool, yes, but he's a genius of an OC) to just install/completely control the O. Butch would then recruit and CEO the operation.

Of course, that won't happen. He has made it abundantly clear that he believes in his system, and if he loses another game this year he won't have that kind of time anyway.

I've been excited for each of the last few seasons under Butch. I've been thrilled with the recruiting. I've cheered and celebrated and always want to see the Vols win. But, I'm not blindly optimistic.

So, my question for all of those who will undoubtedly call my post idiotic, moronic, devoid of logic, negavolic, etc... is this:

What evidence do you have from Butch's coaching - I mean on-the-field results - that he is an elite coach, capable of winning SEC championships and competing for National Championships?

Great recruiter really?????????????? We have mostly three star recruits!!! Please stop!!

The sooner you realize Jones cannot coach his way out of a wet paper bag, the better off you will be and maybe regain your senses!!
 
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#10
#10
... "What evidence do you have from Butch's coaching - I mean on-the-field results - that he is an elite coach, capable of winning SEC championships and competing for National Championships?"

Sadly ... none whatsoever.
 
#11
#11
Great recruiter really?????????????? We have mostly three star recruits!!! Please stop!!

The sooner you realize Jones cannot coach his way out of a wet paper bag, the better off you will be and maybe regain your senses!!

It's an odd year. But overall he's recruited as well as anyone could imagine.
 
#12
#12
Great recruiter really?????????????? We have mostly three star recruits!!! Please stop!!

The sooner you realize Jones cannot coach his way out of a wet paper bag, the better off you will be and maybe regain your senses!!

Perhaps read the post again.
 
#13
#13
What could make this interesting is if Butch were to dump his O scheme, turn Shoop loose on the D scheme, and hire someone like Kiffin (he's a tool, yes, but he's a genius of an OC) to just install/completely control the O. Butch would then recruit and CEO the operation.

This is what needs to happen. I know a lot of folks are mad at Shoop, but he is a proven DC that is in his first season at UT and dealing with major injuries at LB and DT (where we have little depth). You have to give him a pass and expect major improvement next season. I think the defense will be ok. Butch has to let go of the offense and hire someone good at OC, let him hire his staff, and leave him alone. We're still going to have the players next season to really produce on offense...hell, there's a good chance we improve on offense if Debord sticks around with Dormady/Guarantano and Kelly...but we won't come close to maximizing our talent under Debord.

I know plenty won't agree, but I view Butch a lot like I do Dabo Swinney. He was on the hotseat early on at Clemson and was mostly a good recruiter and motivator. His hire of Chad Morris in 2011 really started to turn things around and his hire of Brent Venables the next year helped solidify the defense.

Butch hired a good DC in Shoop (despite what some unreasonable fans think). Now he has to go get a good OC if he wants a championship team. Otherwise, the ceiling will always be 8-9 wins. I really think the 2017 Vols can be great if we have the right staff on offense leading them.
 
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#14
#14
This is what needs to happen. I know a lot of folks are mad at Shoop, but he is a proven DC that is in his first season at UT and dealing with major injuries at LB and DT (where we have little depth). You have to give him a pass and expect major improvement next season. I think the defense will be ok. Butch has to let go of the offense and hire someone good at OC, let him hire his staff, and leave him alone. We're still going to have the players next season to really produce on offense...hell, there's a good chance we improve on offense if Debord sticks around with Dormady/Guarantano and Kelly...but we won't come close to maximizing our talent under Debord.

I know plenty won't agree, but I view Butch a lot like I do Dabo Swinney. He was on the hotseat early on at Clemson and was mostly a good recruiter and motivator. His hire of Chad Morris in 2011 really started to turn things around and his hire of Brent Venables the next year helped solidify the defense.

Butch hired a good DC in Shoop (despite what some unreasonable fans think). Now he has to go get a good OC if he wants a championship team. Otherwise, the ceiling will always be 8-9 wins. I really think the 2017 Vols can be great if we have the right staff on offense leading them.

Agreed - I just don't believe he can overcome his pride and change/let go of the offensive system. We'll see though.
 
#15
#15
Great recruiter really?????????????? We have mostly three star recruits!!! Please stop!!

The sooner you realize Jones cannot coach his way out of a wet paper bag, the better off you will be and maybe regain your senses!!

And only one is an OL prospect
 
#16
#16
The offensive playing calling is comically predictable. we basically run a damn wildcat offense. Ive given dobbs the benefit of the doubt on his passing ability, a bless his heart he's a hell of a person, but he just not accurate or smart with the ball downfield. Dormandy is not the answer for this scheme, Guantanamo may work. The debord hire still tells me all I need to know about butch.
 
#17
#17
Agreed - I just don't believe he can overcome his pride and change/let go of the offensive system. We'll see though.

If he can't put his pride aside and do like Dabo did...then he needs to be our Ron Zook and we all need to hope that our new AD has the guts to move on and hire a coach that will take our talent and win championships.

I really like Butch despite the annoying cliches and I think the best thing for the program would be for him to hire a great OC and stay around.
 
#19
#19
This is what needs to happen. I know a lot of folks are mad at Shoop, but he is a proven DC that is in his first season at UT and dealing with major injuries at LB and DT (where we have little depth). You have to give him a pass and expect major improvement next season. I think the defense will be ok. Butch has to let go of the offense and hire someone good at OC, let him hire his staff, and leave him alone. We're still going to have the players next season to really produce on offense...hell, there's a good chance we improve on offense if Debord sticks around with Dormady/Guarantano and Kelly...but we won't come close to maximizing our talent under Debord.

I know plenty won't agree, but I view Butch a lot like I do Dabo Swinney. He was on the hotseat early on at Clemson and was mostly a good recruiter and motivator. His hire of Chad Morris in 2011 really started to turn things around and his hire of Brent Venables the next year helped solidify the defense.

Butch hired a good DC in Shoop (despite what some unreasonable fans think). Now he has to go get a good OC if he wants a championship team. Otherwise, the ceiling will always be 8-9 wins. I really think the 2017 Vols can be great if we have the right staff on offense leading them.

Despite all of Dobbs' good traits/abilities/skills, Butch's stubborness not to play Dormady more and recognize that Dormady is a much better passer speaks volumes about his willingness to bet the farm, and the season, on Dobbs. We all knew from last year if we didn't have a good down field threat teams would keep loading the box, stop the run, and bet that Dobbs couldn't beat them just with his scrambling ability, Also think Butch & coaches wanted to limit Dobbs runs for fear of getting him hurt. If that happened, yes, Dormady could come in but two things: (1) Dormady got very little game time experience & mop up duty he got was just to run the clock out mostly and (2) the weak o-line has anyone (QB) scrambling until they can hit some passes down field & keep the defense guessing. At the current pace, you know you're in trouble when KY & Vandy look like they can take us.
 
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#20
#20
Four years. His classes. His scheme. Lost to a Will Muschamp putrid SCe.

Any more questions?
 
#21
#21
I'm seeing a lot of "Butch has lost the team" and "Butch can't motivate the team to play" posts. Three weeks ago it was, "I've never seen any team play harder for a UT coach."

So, let's take a step back and look this objectively.

The Good

Butch has proven to be a good recruiter. He has rebuilt UT and added talent all over the field, including some All-American talent at certain positions.

Butch seems to be a good/great talent evaluator. Sutton and Hall are good examples.

Butch can clearly motivate his teams, and his players love playing for him. I don't think anyone can argue with this, although (as addressed below) this is only part of the winning equation.

Butch has given us some memorable wins. FL and GA this year, beating Spurrier, etc...

The Bad

We hired a coach who was the signature win of our former coach, Dooley, who is widely considered the worst UT coach in history, maybe one of the worst HC's in college football history. Before you dismiss this statement, let's take a look at an alarming revelation on this subject.

A few weeks back, Daniel Hood revealed on Pennington's Sunday show that, when Butch arrived, he had to be shown why UT knew every offensive play whether they would run or pass. There was a flaw in his offensive system that none of his staff had picked up on to that point. That's downright disturbing, and none of you who get up in arms about people criticizing Butch can overlook this.

Bizarre in-game decisions and clock mismanagement have plagued Butch his entire career. Everyone has pointed this out, from posters on VN to talking heads on TV and sports radio. We heard about it from Cinci fans upon his arrival on the The Hill. We've had to endure it the last few years against OK, FL, etc...

Where does that leave us?

These bad traits are not the hallmarks of a championship level coach... sorry, VN.

Many on here cheered and laughed when Muschamp got hired at SC. I asked why, given that Muschamp has beaten Butch both times they've faced one another. Many of us got ridiculed for suggesting that Muschamp has Butch's number.

Well, Butch got out-coached yesterday by Muschamp, whose team has vastly inferior talent. Butch had an extra week of preparation to boot.

The deficiency of the offensive scheme has taken its toll. Winning the games based on the players' iron will, determination, and sheer talent could only take us so far. Abernathy's phenomenal rundown in the A&M game was an excellent microcosm of the first half of the season. Sadly, his hamstring pull-up in the AL game may be the same for the second half of the season.

There's a fine line between realism and pessimism. Some here labeled "negavols" are simply miserable schmucks who only complain and come post when UT loses. Others, however, simply see what we have in our head coach: a great recruiter and motivational speaker, by all accounts a really great man, but a mid-major tier coach, at best.

When Butch was hired, the "Dooley's signature win" concern was blaring in my head. I think I even made a post to that effect. But, I'm the type who makes the best of things... realistically optimistic.

What could make this interesting is if Butch were to dump his O scheme, turn Shoop loose on the D scheme, and hire someone like Kiffin (he's a tool, yes, but he's a genius of an OC) to just install/completely control the O. Butch would then recruit and CEO the operation.

Of course, that won't happen. He has made it abundantly clear that he believes in his system, and if he loses another game this year he won't have that kind of time anyway.

I've been excited for each of the last few seasons under Butch. I've been thrilled with the recruiting. I've cheered and celebrated and always want to see the Vols win. But, I'm not blindly optimistic.

So, my question for all of those who will undoubtedly call my post idiotic, moronic, devoid of logic, negavolic, etc... is this:

What evidence do you have from Butch's coaching - I mean on-the-field results - that he is an elite coach, capable of winning SEC championships and competing for National Championships?

Well said!!! Best post I've seen today. All points true and to the point. Should be "must read" for all VolNation. Note: This is not "kneejerk", well spoken and realistically factual. Thanks for the post...
 
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#22
#22
...Otherwise, the ceiling will always be 8-9 wins. I really think the 2017 Vols can be great if we have the right staff on offense leading them.
Agreed - I just don't believe he can overcome his pride and change/let go of the offensive system. We'll see though.
At this point, there is a real possibility this team goes 6-6 or 7-5. I think CBJ's stubbornness to hang with "his" system will not allow him to have the "right staff on offense leading them". JMHO
 
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#23
#23
Agreed - I just don't believe he can overcome his pride and change/let go of the offensive system. We'll see though.

Maybe it's not his pride. Have you ever considered maybe he can't learn or understand another system. His game planning leads me to believe that he (and maybe staff) just don't understand to well.
 
#24
#24
Well said!!! Best post I've seen today. All points true and to the point. Should be "must read" for all VolNation. Note: This is not "kneejerk", well spoken and realistically factual. Thanks for the post...

Much appreciated.

Maybe it's not his pride. Have you ever considered maybe he can't learn or understand another system. His game planning leads me to believe that he (and maybe staff) just don't understand to well.

Well, I think Daniel Hood's comments I referenced earlier may support this. To run a system and not see an obvious flaw that must be pointed out by players/staff at your new school is, well, not a ringing endorsement of your football IQ.
 
#25
#25
What evidence do you have from Butch's coaching - I mean on-the-field results - that he is an elite coach, capable of winning SEC championships and competing for National Championships?

No matter how a person feels about CBJ-- good, bad or indifferent-- there's no evidence that he can or will win an SEC or national championship. His overall record as HC is 76-47. His career record against ranked teams is terrible (something like 1-18 heading into the season), and a coach is not going to win championships without beating ranked teams. Objectively, he can be considered an elite or near-elite recruiter, but not an elite coach. And there's no evidence to support that he ever will be.
 
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