John Adams article on settlement

What probably happened, based on the evidence?

(1) bowles helped a girl who claimed to have been assaulted and whose story he found credible and encouraged her to report it to police

(2) bowles was assaulted by teammates

(3) jones tells bowles he is a traitor to the team, and later realizes this is a mistake and aologizes to bowles

(4) jones ends any further retaliation against bowles without punishing those involved in the assault

(6) a cover story is concocted for bowles absence from the team

There is a lot of credible evidence for each of 1-6 imo.

...there are holes all over this including the fact that Bowles told Dopirak of the KNS that he was unaware that Jane Doe IV had been assaulted at the time he gave her a ride. It is a shame we will never know what was in the correspondence between Jane Doe IV and AJ Johnson on the night in question. It would probably shed a lot of light on this. It is also a shame that Bowles will never be cross examined over the inconsistencies in his stories.
 
one thing I find utterly absurd is for universities to be in any way involved in rape investigations in the first place...happens all the time..these are police matters
 
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...there are holes all over this including the fact that Bowles told Dopirak of the KNS that he was unaware that Jane Doe IV had been assaulted at the time he gave her a ride. It is a shame we will never know what was in the correspondence between Jane Doe IV and AJ Johnson on the night in question. It would probably shed a lot of light on this. It is also a shame that Bowles will never be cross examined over the inconsistencies in his stories.

ok...which ones have holes...let's start with whichever one you want..you think #1 is called into question in what way? You really think he never asked her..ya know..why are you crying?
 
ok...which ones have holes...let's start with whichever one you want..you think #1 is called into question in what way? You really think he never asked her..ya know..why are you crying?

According to Drae Bowles own words? No. They didn't discuss any alleged rape at all. He also denied having ever been assaulted.
 
According to Drae Bowles own words? No. They didn't discuss any alleged rape at all. He also denied having ever been assaulted.

He probably just advises all girls he sees crying to report an assault.That makes sense..she never told him him and yet he encouraged her to report exactly what she didn't tell him
 
He probably just advises all girls he sees crying to report an assault.That makes sense..she never told him him and yet he encouraged her to report exactly what she didn't tell him

You can't get around his words in the KNS in Feb. 2015. The Dopirak report makes no mention of Jane Doe IV crying. Under oath or not, his story changed a lot.
 
And if all we had were his words regarding being assaulted it would be up in the air..however there are multiple other witnesses that corroborate an assault taking place. Are you aware of this?
 
..and if you find it possible that a man encouraged a girl to report an assault when she had never told him that she was, ya know, assaulted, then you are beyond logical argument.
 
What probably happened, based on the evidence?

(1) bowles helped a girl who claimed to have been assaulted and whose story he found credible and encouraged her to report it to police

(2) bowles was assaulted by teammates in retaliation

(3) jones tells bowles he is a traitor to the team, and later realizes this is a mistake and aologizes to bowles

(4) jones ends any further retaliation against bowles without punishing those involved in the assault

(6) a cover story is concocted for bowles absence from the team

There is a lot of credible evidence for each of 1-6 imo.

Or just as much for none of that. :dunno:

Boils down to who you believe...already stated. :)
 
And if all we had were his words regarding being assaulted it would be up in the air..however there are multiple other witnesses that corroborate an assault taking place. Are you aware of this?

Once again who are the "other multiple witnesses". You keep citing them...but they get more and more fictional. :)
 
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..and if you find it possible that a man encouraged a girl to report an assault when she had never told him that she was, ya know, assaulted, then you are beyond logical argument.

Sorry...went to sleep last night and you were doing this whole other thing...edited.
 
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Does anyone but me find it interesting that when one pot stirrer (e.g. poster who is desperately trying to twist the facts to find blame at UT) says they are leaving for awhile, another pot stirrer magically appears?

Unless you all are someone who was involved, you know no more than any of us know. You know only what the media and lawyers wanted you to know and if you trust them to be completely factual, I have some ocean front property in Kansas that I will sell you.

And only two folks know what was said in the discussion between CBJ and the player and all we have is the direct quote from CBJ on the matter and the paraphrase the lawyer used in the filing. And the paraphrase without context gives no clarification whatsoever.

Both UT and the plaintiffs are satisfied with this - just let it go.
 
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Once again who are the "other multiple witnesses". You keep citing them...but they get more and more fictional. :)

And unless the witness actually saw it happening they are not a witness but are just repeating what they were told which is heresay and would be rejected in court.
 
one thing I find utterly absurd is for universities to be in any way involved in rape investigations in the first place...happens all the time..these are police matters

Agree - but the current administration (Obama) has forced them to be involved - otherwise they lose funding.

One could make the argument that in these cases, unless the incident took place on campus, both parties should be allowed to continue their normal activities at the university until the matter is solved. But that is not the PC thing to do.
 
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Once again who are the "other multiple witnesses". You keep citing them...but they get more and more fictional. :)

curt magitt

the victim's roommate

--Do you believe, based on the evidence, that ut lied in concocting a cover story explaining bowles' absence from the team in the time when the events occurred? If so, why do you think they did this?
 
curt magitt

the victim's roommate

--Do you believe, based on the evidence, that ut lied in concocting a cover story explaining bowles' absence from the team in the time when the events occurred? If so, why do you think they did this?

The victim's roommate witnessed the assault ON BOWLES? New info there.

You keep circling but not alighting on the subject at hand. Tension on the team and Bowles being isolated from upset teammates does not substantiate the coach calling him a traitor and apologizing. A+Z does not equal 14. :blink:
 
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curt magitt

the victim's roommate

--Do you believe, based on the evidence, that ut lied in concocting a cover story explaining bowles' absence from the team in the time when the events occurred? If so, why do you think they did this?

What cover story? What I remember is that it was stated that he was absence due to personal reasons of some sort, which makes sense. These athletes are private individuals. They nor the coaches OWE the public explanation with explicit details on what is or isn't going on. Just because someone did not come out and explain the details that are out there now, doesn't mean it was covered up.

I'm really surprised that universities give any information on the athletes to the public. They really don't have too.
 
Now that a settlement has been reached, VolNation's resident detectives are still debating events none of them witnessed. As if what actually happened matters anymore.

This nonsense is now in the past. They are hiring people at Tennessee to oversee these types of situations going forward, which any intelligent observers must agree should be a positive step. Debating what he said, she said, you think, I think ect ect is now an act of futility. 2.48 million dollars is being paid out to put it to bed. I say let's get our money's worth.
 
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Now that a settlement has been reached, VolNation's resident detectives are still debating events none of them witnessed. As if what actually happened matters anymore.

This nonsense is now in the past. They are hiring people at Tennessee to oversee these types of situations going forward, which any intelligent observers must agree should be a positive step. Debating what he said, she said, you think, I think ect ect is now an act of futility. 2.48 million dollars is being paid out to put it to bed. I say let's get our money's worth.

That is the unfortunate mindset that many take in these situations. UT (or any other school or entity in a similar situation) pays a large sum of money and what actually happened no longer matters anymore. It still matters to me. But that is of no consequence bc the documents needed to have a more informed opinion are as unavailable for me as they for those who choose to dismiss it now that the matter is "settled".

I wish it weren't possible to have legal documents sealed by agreeing to settle for any amount of money, large or small, but that is the reality in our society. It is less about justice and accountability and more a matter of money and "compensatory damages". While one might argue it's justice for the alleged "victims", it's not justice for anyone outside the suit, and these types of cases have an impact on society IMO. Since this is a public university as defendant, its especially problematic for me when you consider that these are state employees who may have made decisions that could impact their employment. Therefore, in my eyes, they should be held accountable if they allowed for an environment of clemency and impenetrable bureaucracy for alleged victims. A payment to a Jane Doe still does not hold public employees accountable if their actions remain covered up and continue employment. JMO.

As stated before by just about everyone who has voiced concern with how this case has turned out, there is no certainty in any of the accusations or claims, and now much of the damning evidence has been sealed. What little we have to go on in the public forum is not incriminating on its own but does leave open a possibility that several of the accusations have merit. It is noteworthy that UT chose not take allow the case to go to trial and instead paid out a settlement in exchange for NDAs and sealed documents. Whether you believe the settlement is large or small does not change the fact that it was settled, which often is associated as implied guilt of some degree by the most casual of observers.

But what everyone chooses to accept as fact or fiction for themselves likely has more to do with their own predisposed prejudices (are they a diehard fan or a "feminist" or a lawyer or a victim or a rival fan, etc.) and open-mindedness as it does anything else.

Just don't tell me your belief is more justified than mine. There's plenty of circumstantial evidence that indicates UT as an institution has some guilt here. And they paid to keep any more evidence from going public. That much is indisputable and I don't see how recognizing that is "stirring the pot". I haven't even really "bashed" UT or called anyone out. I just stated that I changed my opinion on the matter when new information was made known to me (originally I thought the lawsuit was frivolous and a "money grab" like most have voiced).
 
Now that a settlement has been reached, VolNation's resident detectives are still debating events none of them witnessed. As if what actually happened matters anymore.

This nonsense is now in the past. They are hiring people at Tennessee to oversee these types of situations going forward, which any intelligent observers must agree should be a positive step. Debating what he said, she said, you think, I think ect ect is now an act of futility. 2.48 million dollars is being paid out to put it to bed. I say let's get our money's worth.

And VolNation's resident sycophants did not witness the events either. Those that are key witnesses have signed NDAs or their testimony has been sealed.

I don't care to debate this any further either but let's not make it seem that a case settlement requires all debate to end. If the facts were laid bare for all to see and the people in the wrong were punished to the degree warranted than perhaps it could be justifiably put to rest. But we don't really know if justice was served here. We know money was. But that is not true justice. The money didn't come from the individuals who may be responsible anyway. It came from hat and t-shirt sells (basically).
 
One of the major misconceptions in current society is that a civil trial is the place for "justice" or to find the "truth." Edison Haines once said that "Law is not justice and a trial is not a scientific inquiry into truth. A trial is the resolution of a dispute." A lot of that has to do with the other legal maxim: "When you go into court you are putting your fate into the hands of twelve people who weren't smart enough to get out of jury duty."

Any experienced civil litigator will tell you that there is considerable risk to any trial and litigation in general. And that any case has good facts and bad facts. A jury might believe Bowles, they might not. They might believe Jones, they might not. They might believe Manning, they might not. I've been a lawyer for 25 years and was quite taken aback by Adam's naivete that UT's settlement constitutes either an admission of guilt or a fear of the truth.

One other thing that needs to be remembered about civil rights lawsuits--they have an exception to the normal American rule that everyone pays for their own lawyer's fees. Thus, UT could win on 90% of the case and lose 10% and still owe enormous sums in attorneys fees for a case it "won."

So when you evaluate a case, you have to take into account how much you might lose, the chances of losing that, and a settlement is based on both sides acceptance of the risk in their case. If the plaintiffs thought they had an airtight case they wouldn't be settling for $2.48 million. And if UT thought it had a 100% chance of winning, it would have settled for less. But this appears that both parties saw uncertainty in trial and a chance to resolve the matter for a less than ideal amount but one that eliminates a greater risk. To pretend it is otherwise betrays a lack of understanding of the current legal environment. Reading into the settlement anything more than UT and the plaintiffs found a number that represented their risks of going to trial is fruitless.

It should also be remembered that about 99% of cases settle. And an equal number of criminal cases are so resolved. If it was otherwise, the citizens of this nation would be spending billions more on judges and courts and jurors to resolve cases.
 
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But we don't really know if justice was served here. We know money was. But that is not true justice. The money didn't come from the individuals who may be responsible anyway. It came from hat and t-shirt sells (basically).

Not true - we do know that justice was served in this case. Justice was defined by those involved in the lawsuit. All the plaintiffs had to agree. The lawyers had to agree. UT had to agree.

This was not a criminal trial. This was a civil lawsuit where justice was always going to be defined by the amount of money that traded hands. Obtaining money was the sole purpose of the law suit.

The plaintiffs did NOT sue those they accused of the actual criminal activity - they choose to sue UT for $$$s.

A civil court cannot award anything but $$$. It sounds like you expect a civil court to put folks in jail - that is what a criminal court does and most of these plaintiffs chose not to pursue that angle.
 
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It is noteworthy that UT chose not take allow the case to go to trial and instead paid out a settlement in exchange for NDAs and sealed documents.

Has it occurred to you that the plaintiffs may have also wanted the documentation sealed? Sealed documents work both ways protecting all parties from public scrutiny and evaluation.

Why does this matter to you? The parties involved are apparently satisfied - that is all that should matter.
 
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One of the major misconceptions in current society is that a civil trial is the place for "justice" or to find the "truth." Edison Haines once said that "Law is not justice and a trial is not a scientific inquiry into truth. A trial is the resolution of a dispute." A lot of that has to do with the other legal maxim: "When you go into court you are putting your fate into the hands of twelve people who weren't smart enough to get out of jury duty."

Any experienced civil litigator will tell you that there is considerable risk to any trial and litigation in general. And that any case has good facts and bad facts. A jury might believe Bowles, they might not. They might believe Jones, they might not. They might believe Manning, they might not. I've been a lawyer for 25 years and was quite taken aback by Adam's naivete that UT's settlement constitutes either an admission of guilt or a fear of the truth.

One other thing that needs to be remembered about civil rights lawsuits--they have an exception to the normal American rule that everyone pays for their own lawyer's fees. Thus, UT could win on 90% of the case and lose 10% and still owe enormous sums in attorneys fees for a case it "won."

So when you evaluate a case, you have to take into account how much you might lose, the chances of losing that, and a settlement is based on both sides acceptance of the risk in their case. If the plaintiffs thought they had an airtight case they wouldn't be settling for $2.48 million. And if UT thought it had a 100% chance of winning, it would have settled for less. But this appears that both parties saw uncertainty in trial and a chance to resolve the matter for a less than ideal amount but one that eliminates a greater risk. To pretend it is otherwise betrays a lack of understanding of the current legal environment. Reading into the settlement anything more than UT and the plaintiffs found a number that represented their risks of going to trial is fruitless.

It should also be remembered that about 99% of cases settle. And an equal number of criminal cases are so resolved. If it was otherwise, the citizens of this nation would be spending billions more on judges and courts and jurors to resolve cases.

I laughed at the jury quote. Criminal court has a major flaw in relying on juries. I've read up just a tid bit on other approaches in other countries that view juries as unreliable. I wish our country would consider alternatives as well.

As it relates to civil cases...I don't know why they don't go more in the direction of arbitration so that the costs are more reasonable for both parties. When both sides aim to settle simply to avoid paying an unknown but higher amount that is not a desirable account to "resolve a dispute". Imagine having two bickering kids both having to give up their milk money to the homeroom teacher every time one kid got upset with another in grade school (terrible analogy, I know).

Anyway, thanks for the informative post. :hi:
 
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Not true - we do know that justice was served in this case. Justice was defined by those involved in the lawsuit. All the plaintiffs had to agree. The lawyers had to agree. UT had to agree.

This was not a criminal trial. This was a civil lawsuit where justice was always going to be defined by the amount of money that traded hands. Obtaining money was the sole purpose of the law suit.

The plaintiffs did NOT sue those they accused of the actual criminal activity - they choose to sue UT for $$$s.

A civil court cannot award anything but $$$. It sounds like you expect a civil court to put folks in jail - that is what a criminal court does and most of these plaintiffs chose not to pursue that angle.

Justice, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder. It's certainly not a concrete concept.

As I've said, this lawsuit was intended to force UT's hand in making changes with how they deal with sexual assault accusations on campus (the eight Jane Does were merely incidents that allowed the lawsuit to come into existence -- it wasn't really about their cases individually).

Look, I don't like the direction that society is going with its definition of sexual assault, especially on college campuses around the country (regret the morning after intercourse is certainly not anywhere in the same ballpark as a man forcing himself on a woman...but that seems to be the direction things are going -- and that's scary). But I also wouldn't want a university to have insufficient procedures at handling each case, since they would have no idea the merit of each individual case until they are looked into each with diligence and a sense of urgency. I also would not want any segment of the student population treated differently (athletes, non-athletes, majority, minority, rich, poor, etc.) or shown clemency. I doubt you would want this either. This is basic stuff.

According to the lawsuit's accusations, UT had some lapses here (clemency, procedural failures, slow response times, undue bureaucracy in getting judicial reviews). Maybe they did, maybe they didn't. The documents that might shed light on that are now sealed. But UT is now saying they have made changes to address any lapses that may have existed (while not admitting guilt at the same time lol). Like I said a few pages back, in that regard it appears the lawsuit served it's purpose.

To address another question in your follow up post, I am not sure I care enough to discuss it further. I've only been responding to posters that have questioned my intended last post in this thread, or a post answer those posts. I don't know enough to feel that justice or injustice has occurred here. But I also do see merit in the lawsuit now. It's that simple. It's also just an opinion, so if someone's opinion differs, I'm not sure why mine would bother them. This isn't an attack on UT, nor a criticism really. The documents that might have led to that outcome for me if they had damning evidence have been sealed. So I choose not to speculate. I did say (and will continue to believe) that what information is public does not paint a flattering picture (Tim Rogers' stated reason for retirement, for one).
 
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