Japan will be dealing "for decades" from Fukushima

#1

utgibbs

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 30, 2009
Messages
7,394
Likes
0
#1
The Japanese, according to the French, will have to "deal with the consequences of this accident for decades."

Long after all of the devastation of the tsunami has been rebuilt, and after the wounds healed, there will be a lasting and lingering legacy for the grandchildren of Japan not yet born.

Moreover, more radioactive smoke billowing out of reactors, and the workmen are training to spray concrete on the reactors. In other words, the world's second Zone of Alienation in just under 25 years.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-03-21/japan-radiation-release-long-term-problem-france-s-asn-says-1-.html

Capital has no time-horizon to effectively deal with or plan for nuclear energy. In our lust to grow Capital, we have forgotten the very things we need to grow human beings.
 
#2
#2
How did communist government planning work out for the Chernobyl plant? Feel free to just post a picture of Ali vs Frasier and just declare victory, or reference some African megafauna in my backyard. It's what I've come to expect.
 
#4
#4
I just think it is ironically small-minded to think the issue is anything less than the brief nature of an individual human life and consciousness and even human generations and cultural evolutions, vs the time scale of this kind of science. This isn't a political philosophy problem (as I'm sure you agree). Government's ability to plan beyond a couple of decades is pretty limited for the same reason Capital's is: we aren't psychic.
 
#6
#6
I'd love some apples and peanut butter right now. Locally grown and shipped on high speed rails if you please.
 
#9
#9
How did communist government planning work out for the Chernobyl plant? Feel free to just post a picture of Ali vs Frasier and just declare victory, or reference some African megafauna in my backyard. It's what I've come to expect.

It didn't. But the "communism" you refer to was simply a different type of economic rationality made supreme over the needs of people. And it was even less rational than our own (which is nearly totally irrational).

I no longer expect you to bring your A-game to the discussion either, IP. But, please, regale us with your jpgs of a guy fishin' in Colorado when you're out of words.

It was Ali vs Liston btw, and I only declare victory when it is won. :hi:
 
#10
#10
remember, gibbs also criticized capital for not being able to adequately plan for events that might happen in 1.7 million years.
 
#11
#11
It didn't. But the "communism" you refer to was simply a different type of economic rationality made supreme over the needs of people. And it was even less rational than our own (which is nearly totally irrational).

I no longer expect you to bring your A-game to the discussion either, IP. But, please, regale us with your jpgs of a guy fishin' in Colorado when you're out of words.

It was Ali vs Liston btw, and I only declare victory when it is won. :hi:

You are the self-declared undefeated champion of the world, aren't you?

You so quickly dismiss the fact that the worst nuclear accident in the history of the world (that we know of) occurred under the very political school of thought you espouse as being the answer to these sorts of concerns.


My original point was that the failure is not with the brand of government, but with the limits of our own existence. Please show me the error in that thought. Show me how government can plan hundreds and thousands of years into the future effectively. Give me an illustration as to what that would look like.
 
#12
#12
I just think it is ironically small-minded to think the issue is anything less than the brief nature of an individual human life and consciousness and even human generations and cultural evolutions, vs the time scale of this kind of science. This isn't a political philosophy problem (as I'm sure you agree). Government's ability to plan beyond a couple of decades is pretty limited for the same reason Capital's is: we aren't psychic.

I disagree.

Thanks to human ingenuity, for instace, we can look back into the past 13.5 billion years with amazing precision and detail.

Although the future is less certain (damn Dark Energy!), we can still plot the destiny of the universe, although, admittedly, along three different trajectories.

The decision to put nuclear reactors around the Ring of Fire, when we have high efficiency transmission lines, is a decision, I'm afraid to say, that could only be made by Capital. I find it incredulous anyone would argue this point, especially now in hindsight.

And I can pull up and cite now several very prescient studies (as I'm sure we all can now) which suggested strongly this was a bad, bad idea.

Planning works. But planning within the instantaneous time horizon of Capital is unthinkable.
 
#13
#13
I disagree.

Thanks to human ingenuity, for instace, we can look back into the past 13.5 billion years with amazing precision and detail.

Although the future is less certain (damn Dark Energy!), we can still plot the destiny of the universe, although, admittedly, along three different trajectories.

The decision to put nuclear reactors around the Ring of Fire, when we have high efficiency transmission lines, is a decision, I'm afraid to say, that could only be made by Capital. I find it incredulous anyone would argue this point, especially now in hindsight.

And I can pull up and cite now several very prescient studies (as I'm sure we all can now) which suggested strongly this was a bad, bad idea.

Planning works. But planning within the instantaneous time horizon of Capital is unthinkable.

The entire Japanese archipelago rests on the ring of fire. I'm not sure where you are advocating them putting their reactors.

And I'm virtually certain the placement of those reactors had more to do with government regulation and planning on every level than "pure capital." Since you think it's incredulous anyone could think that it wasn't only capital that was involved in placing those plants, perhaps you could explain how nuclear plants are laid out and apparently not regulated in Japan.

Also, please explain how hindsight and the occurrence of a disaster would affect how a reactor had been planned and laid out decades prior. Seems like an unintentional confession of extreme bias.

As far as the "precision and detail" (highly relative terms) at which we can see the past, I'm not sure how that enters into the planning equation for the time scale we are speaking of. That is the same as saying due to the "precision and detail" in which we know American history, we can predict who the next two presidents will be. Of course we can't.

I'm one of those paleoclimatologists you squeal about. We aren't fortune tellers. I can tell you a lot about the sort of natural environment that will likely naturally occur in a given area based on looking at the past, current species assemblages, and projected future geologic landscape. That doesn't mean I can tell you anything to do with the future activities of the biggest and most dynamic force currently on the planet: humans. Humans change everything.
 
#14
#14
Also, please explain how hindsight and the occurrence of a disaster would affect how a reactor had been planned and laid out decades prior. Seems like an unintentional confession of extreme bias.

Humans change everything.

Only those soaked in the dominant culture could, without incredulity, claim that putting a nuclear reactor on the Ring of Fire is a good idea, an example of "good planning." That hindsight now confirms this perfectly sound and plain common sense seems to prove your "unintentional confession of extreme bias." We actually know exactly and precisely how long and how dangerous the products and by-products of a nuclear reactor are. To date, I know of no plan to deal with said wastes. GSM, I'm afraid.

I don't know the figures on Japan nuclear MW off the top of my head, but it is a PERFECT example of decisions made by Capital and not common sense. Those MW could have been produced, for instance, by tidal renewables, by relentless efficiency measures, by abundant wind resources... in other words, by a host of other deployments besides nuclear.

In fact, I believe this is exactly what you propose, no? :hi:

Your high horse only prepares you for a longer fall....
 
#15
#15
Only those soaked in the dominant culture could, without incredulity, claim that putting a nuclear reactor on the Ring of Fire is a good idea, an example of "good planning."


When did anyone say it was a good plan? You're the one who have apparently blindly asserted that the plants were placed their by "capital" alone, despite the obvious heavy involvement of the Japanese government in it's regulation and construction. You can be incredulous about something once you in any way even remotely back that claim up. Don't go making up claims that other people haven't even made as straw man.


That hindsight now confirms this perfectly sound and plain common sense seems to prove your "unintentional confession of extreme bias." We actually know exactly and precisely how long and how dangerous the products and by-products of a nuclear reactor are. To date, I know of no plan to deal with said wastes. GSM, I'm afraid.
Up until two weeks ago, you advocated the use of nuclear energy. The only thing that changed was a somewhat inevitable disaster-- not the underlying facts. You have demonstrated the inability to foresee all possible outcomes (something you claim can be done via government planning) or were holding an opinion that was extremely uninformed. Which was it?

I don't know the figures on Japan nuclear MW off the top of my head, but it is a PERFECT example of decisions made by Capital and not common sense.
This statement is so devoid of logic, it's actually fascinating. You don't know, but you find it a perfect example of there being better alternatives that weren't followed. Yes. That's brilliant. And I'm on the high horse.

Those MW could have been produced, for instance, by tidal renewables, by relentless efficiency measures, by abundant wind resources... in other words, by a host of other deployments besides nuclear.
You don't know the figures, but you know they can be produced through famously inefficient wind turbines and tidal power. That's some brilliant scheming right there. How many wind turbines does it take to meet the capacity of a single nuclear reactor? about 2800 over 60,000 acres. Japan doesn't have that kind of space, not to mention what that would do to migratory birds. This isn't just a "capital" decision. This is a "reality gorilla" decision.

There are 55 nuclear power plants in Japan. 60,000 acres = about 93 square miles. 93 x 55 = 5115 square miles of wind turbines. To replace those plants, you'd have to cover 1 sixth of Hokkaido with wind turbines. Does that sound practical? Shall we discuss the environmental damage of fragmenting that much environment and putting lethal bird-chewing machines for thousands of square miles? Or the expense of maintaining that many separate constructions? Wonder how much fuel it would take to run maintenance vehicles between each one.

You think like a policy wonk, from the top looking down.



In fact, I believe this is exactly what you propose, no? :hi:

Your high horse only prepares you for a longer fall....

I'm a realist. It's going to take an "all of the above" approach to meet our energy needs. My opinions are fairly well researched and unlike you, don't change overnight because of one tragic event.

I'd still like to hear your expose on Japan's lack of nuclear regulation, which you apparently believe since "capital" alone decided on the placement and existence of those plants.
 
#16
#16
That's one thing people fail to understand. Japan is a country with low land area, a high population density, high energy consumption, lots of water, and little natural resources. Nuclear might be their only option unless they want poor air quality. Of course the nuclear accident is unfortunate, but at the time it was a low risk decision. The largest tsunami, earthquake combination in their history is what made it a bad decision.
 
#17
#17
When did anyone say it was a good plan? You're the one who have apparently blindly asserted that the plants were placed their by "capital" alone, despite the obvious heavy involvement of the Japanese government in it's regulation and construction. You can be incredulous about something once you in any way even remotely back that claim up. Don't go making up claims that other people haven't even made as straw man.


Up until two weeks ago, you advocated the use of nuclear energy. The only thing that changed was a somewhat inevitable disaster-- not the underlying facts. You have demonstrated the inability to foresee all possible outcomes (something you claim can be done via government planning) or were holding an opinion that was extremely uninformed. Which was it?

This statement is so devoid of logic, it's actually fascinating. You don't know, but you find it a perfect example of there being better alternatives that weren't followed. Yes. That's brilliant. And I'm on the high horse.

You don't know the figures, but you know they can be produced through famously inefficient wind turbines and tidal power. That's some brilliant scheming right there. How many wind turbines does it take to meet the capacity of a single nuclear reactor? about 2800 over 60,000 acres. Japan doesn't have that kind of space, not to mention what that would do to migratory birds. This isn't just a "capital" decision. This is a "reality gorilla" decision.

There are 55 nuclear power plants in Japan. 60,000 acres = about 93 square miles. 93 x 55 = 5115 square miles of wind turbines. To replace those plants, you'd have to cover 1 sixth of Hokkaido with wind turbines. Does that sound practical? Shall we discuss the environmental damage of fragmenting that much environment and putting lethal bird-chewing machines for thousands of square miles? Or the expense of maintaining that many separate constructions? Wonder how much fuel it would take to run maintenance vehicles between each one.

You think like a policy wonk, from the top looking down.





I'm a realist. It's going to take an "all of the above" approach to meet our energy needs. My opinions are fairly well researched and unlike you, don't change overnight because of one tragic event.

I'd still like to hear your expose on Japan's lack of nuclear regulation, which you apparently believe since "capital" alone decided on the placement and existence of those plants.

The notion that "government" planning and regulation during the time of Capital is, well, cute, naive, but in the end, absurd. I refer you to the Supreme Court decision of Jan 21, 2010, if you need a primer on the absurdity.

I have yet to even detail the mendacity of TEPCO regarding nuclear safety either. But, as I maintain, if the Japanese can be mendacious about nuclear safety, then to whom can we trust it?

There are very credible (credible in that governments definitely have it on the table) of putting 16 London sized PV arrays in the Sahara. Covering 1/6th of Hokkaido with wind turbines - a low population density island - is absolutely feasible. But I noted an "all but one of the above" approach as well. I didn't know the specific numbers to quote, but I knew them well enough that an "all of the above" could, fairly easily actually, cover the missing MW as you have graciously demonstrated.

Changing my mind after one "tragic" accident which has exposed numerous fallacies, irregularities, and will leave a lasting legacy on Japan for its unborn grandchildren, is not the sign of a fickle mind, but the mark of sober reflection and adult thinking.

I would like to think one day the human race can be mature enough to handle the responsibilities of the atom. Unfortunately, events in Japan have proven beyond a shadow of a doubt we aren't there yet. There is no doubt nuclear is the most bang for the least carbon. Absolutely no doubt. But we don't let tweeners drive on the highway. We have already assigned the problem of spent fuel to future generations - quite simply not adult thinking.

Unfortunately, the "all of the above approach" to a problem I applaud your commitment to solving also involves looking deeply at our society, looking deeply at the supremacy of Capital, its antagonisms and its contradictions so exposed in our historic time, and examining its role and future as the supreme rationality governing our social order.
 
Last edited:
#18
#18
The notion that "government" planning and regulation during the time of Capital is, well, cute, naive, but in the end, absurd. I refer you to the Supreme Court decision of Jan 21, 2010, if you need a primer on the absurdity.

I have yet to even detail the mendacity of TEPCO regarding nuclear safety either. But, as I maintain, if the Japanese can be mendacious about nuclear safety, then to whom can we trust it?

There are very credible (credible in that governments definitely have it on the table) of putting 16 London sized PV arrays in the Sahara. Covering 1/6th of Hokkaido with wind turbines - a low population density island - is absolutely feasible. But I noted an "all but one of the above" approach as well. I didn't know the specific numbers to quote, but I knew them well enough that an "all of the above" could, fairly easily actually, cover the missing MW.

Changing my mind after one "tragic" accident which has exposed numerous fallacies, irregularities, and will leave a lasting legacy on Japan for its unborn grandchildren, is not the sign of a fickle mind, but the mark of sober reflection and adult thinking.

I would like to think one day the human race can be mature enough to handle the responsibilities of the atom. Unfortunately, events in Japan have proven beyond a shadow of a doubt we aren't there yet.

Not really hear to debate, just curious what is your ideal political philosophy?

What would be your utopia?
 
#20
#20
Not really hear to debate, just curious what is your ideal political philosophy?

What would be your utopia?

I don't think in terms of utopia. The human enterprise will be replete with hardships, historic challenges (like global heating today / neoliberalism), and antagonisms. It will always be thus.

I like to think in terms of orientation. What are our key values? Where are we striving to go? Where does our compass, our sextant, point?

To put it simply, I would like a world where social needs are supreme over the economic rationality of Capital. I believe this is real freedom, in the fullest classical sense of liberalism, and far, far greater than the "consumer sovereignty" regaled as the "End of History" in our own time. We are on a collision course with a bankrupt world (not just in the banks, mind you), not even the most uncritical apologist of the current order denies this. The solution, however, is not more of the same.
 
Last edited:
#21
#21
That's one thing people fail to understand. Japan is a country with low land area, a high population density, high energy consumption, lots of water, and little natural resources. Nuclear might be their only option unless they want poor air quality. Of course the nuclear accident is unfortunate, but at the time it was a low risk decision. The largest tsunami, earthquake combination in their history is what made it a bad decision.

But one that has been anticipated for quite some time....

The next time will be the most egregious lax standards.... or the unluckiest unforeseen mishap... or the most heinous act of terrorism....
 
#23
#23
Gibbs, I'm asking an honest question.

What the hell happened to you?

Were you always like this or was there some life altering moment?

Your reference of Capital like it's an entity is beginning to creep me out.
 
#24
#24
Gibbs, I'm asking an honest question.

What the hell happened to you?

Were you always like this or was there some life altering moment?

Your reference of Capital like it's an entity is beginning to creep me out.

I've been wondering the same thing. I'll be the first to admit that some of my ideas (ones in which I won't even get into on this site) are way out in left field, but geez... not sure how you can be like that all of the time.
 
#25
#25
The IAEA was saying in 2008 that Japan’s nuclear safety guidelines were dangerously out of date. A government whistleblower in that country was quoted in a cable to Washington the same year that a Japanese ministry was “covering up nuclear accidents, and obscuring the true costs and problems associated with the nuclear industry.”

That's very vague and could refer to a wide range of issues. The fact of the matter is, Japan was struck with a combination of an earthquake and tsunami that was outside of their safety margins. This, in combination with loss of other external power sources, resulted in the loss on cooling in a functional, but still 40 year old plant.

I have a hard time believing that their nuclear accidents and dangerous safety guidelines had anything to do with this. If so, I commend the IAEA on foreseeing the worst natural disaster in Japan's history.
 
Advertisement

Back
Top