It took 5 years...

#26
#26
majic73 said:
Its really not when you consider that at that time 2000-2004 they were higher ranked than us in recruiting after they came off of probation. I think we are currently at 11 they are at 18. They have no instate recruiting cause of their big sister , we have no instate recruiting for a number of reasons. There conference is typically dominated by two teams historically other than them ...same deal in the SEC. There roster was depleted due to probation..ours because of 3 different coaches and attrition..

A very similar landscape indeed.
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Tennessee has the biggest recruiting budget and some of the best facilities in the country, not to mention a huge and rabid fanbase. Michigan State has none of those things.
 
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#28
#28
NashVol11 said:
Spurrier was 7-3-1 at Duke in year 2 and then 10-2 at Florida--10 wins for the first time in school history--in year 2 as well. That's struggle?
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...then he was 9-4 . He didn't get fired. He was in another recruiting mecca . He lost just enough games despite this to stay out of the NC most years .

The TSSAA sucks and high school sports suffers here due to their cumbersome anti athletics philosophy. UT recruiting is tough and unreliable due to having to pull recruits from other peoples back yards . Our historical win loss record reflects the mood swings of our recruiting classes
 
#30
#30
NashVol11 said:
Weird how he caught lightning in a bottle over and over and over again, even at Duke. Must be really lucky
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I meant for the school doing the hiring. Florida took a chance on an up and comer, it worked out. After he failed in the NFL, USCe took a chance and they had their best run...After Saban bailed on the Dolphins and had a bad first season at Alabama were the Tide fans sure that it was going to turn out like this?

Besides comparing a Coach like Jones to HOF type guys...not sure that works out most of time, right?
 
#31
#31
NashVol11 said:
Tennessee has the biggest recruiting budget and some of the best facilities in the country, not to mention a huge and rabid fanbase. Michigan State has none of those things.
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and yet they are usually nearby by us in the recruiting polls. I am guessing they do a little better in state than we do . In any case MSU is a more comparable situation than Alabama or Louisiana recruiting. Alabama ( the state ) is currently the number one recruiting state in the country turning out more D1 athletes than any other state. TN is not even ranked
 
#33
#33
vol66 said:
I meant for the school doing the hiring. Florida took a chance on an up and comer, it worked out. After he failed in the NFL, USCe took a chance and they had their best run...After Saban bailed on the Dolphins and had a bad first season at Alabama were the Tide fans sure that it was going to turn out like this?

Besides comparing a Coach like Jones to HOF type guys...not sure that works out most of time, right?
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Thats the whole point of the discussion. Saban at MSU was not a HOF...he was swimming up river . He went to a recruiting Mecca and he is now a HOF. Spurrier went to a recruiting mecca and did well but have numerous short comings for the talent he had. He went to Scar and had great success ...but not a recruiting destination so the success was tempered

Butch is not by any stretch of the imagination at a recruiting mecca. He cannot instantly put together a team of 4 and 5 recruits with in-state talent. I think Kiffin had the right idea with NFL marketing ...and the reason he did that ?? Its tough to recruit in TN due to the lack of an in-state base.

The next coach ...if that happens is going to have the same struggles . It will take several years of top 5 recruiting ( not guaranteed ) to even have a chance to showcase his coaching skill
 
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#34
#34
majic73 said:
Thats the whole point of the discussion. Saban at MSU was not a HOF...he was swimming up river . He went to a recruiting Mecca and he is now a HOF. Spurrier went to a recruiting mecca and did well but have numerous short comings for the talent he had. He went to Scar and had great success ...but not a recruiting destination so the success was tempered

Butch is not by any stretch of the imagination at a recruiting mecca. He cannot instantly put together a team of 4 and 5 recruits with in-state talent. I think Kiffin had the right idea with NFL marketing ...and the reason he did that ?? Its tough to recruit in TN due to the lack of an in-state base.

The next coach ...if that happens is going to have the same struggles . It will take several years of top 5 recruiting ( not guaranteed ) to even have a chance to showcase his coaching skill
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I don't disagree. They have recruited well, they have some great recruiters on staff who may not be the best football coaches.
 
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#35
#35
vol66 said:
I don't disagree. They have recruited well, they have some great recruiters on staff who may not be the best football coaches.
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You may be correct . My only point for my posts is that all the greats had struggles of varying degree before their greatness. Joe PA would struggle , have runs of average , then really good , then perfect ...then to bad again. I honestly believe a coaches POTENTIAL success is dependent on recruiting. Joe Pa was in a venue that fluctuated in terms of recruiting and so did his success. I believe TN is a similar venue.

I never said Butch was a guaranteed future success because he's struggled ...bad coaching goes hand in hand with losing ...but the great ones lost too.
 
#36
#36
majic73 said:
You may be correct . My only point for my posts is that all the greats had struggles of varying degree before their greatness. Joe PA would struggle , have runs of average , then really good , then perfect ...then to bad again. I honestly believe a coaches POTENTIAL success is dependent on recruiting. Joe Pa was in a venue that fluctuated in terms of recruiting and so did his success. I believe TN is a similar venue.

I never said Butch was a guaranteed future success because he's struggled ...bad coaching goes hand in hand with losing ...but the great ones lost too.
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I have no issue with what you are saying. One time in the history of Tennessee football since I have been alive have the powers that be gone out and hired a proven football coach and Johnny Majors never duplicated the National Championship he won at Pittsburgh here in Knoxville.

We just got a new Chancellor, we are waiting on a new AD and the powers that be aren't going to fire a coach that went 8-4 at this time...it would be stupid and we can't afford it anyway.
 
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#37
#37
majic73 said:
You may be correct . My only point for my posts is that all the greats had struggles of varying degree before their greatness. Joe PA would struggle , have runs of average , then really good , then perfect ...then to bad again. I honestly believe a coaches POTENTIAL success is dependent on recruiting. Joe Pa was in a venue that fluctuated in terms of recruiting and so did his success. I believe TN is a similar venue.

I never said Butch was a guaranteed future success because he's struggled ...bad coaching goes hand in hand with losing ...but the great ones lost too.
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The lost by 1 point to florida because "his chart" didn't tell him to go for two after the TD already told us he is not a good game time coach. The fact that he keeps trying to hire his old buddies and telling everyone he is hiring the "best in the country" also tells us he is a control freak, who doesn't excel at all aspects of football. The fact that none of the players ever looked "coached up" also tells us that he and his staff are not that good. AND the records at all his previous coaching stops also do not indicate any type greatness. He is a good average coach. And the team will be that way. There is no sign of this greatness you're trying to talk yourself into believing.
 
#38
#38
Preface for clarity I'm not in the fahr Butch crowd but I am solidly in the worried about Butch crowd. What's being lost is it has nothing to do with records, has our record been consistently improving? Yes and I used that to defend him for the better majority of this season but that's blanketing the problems with a minor band-aid.

The things I am concerned about is under Butch I have yet to see progress in his teams. We struggled from Appy State this year on, there was only one game where I never felt like I was worried about how it would turn out, Tech. If what happened with Appy State was just us coming out flat why is it that we can't get the team to come out inspired against any opponent not just lesser teams? Why is this two years in a row Butch has had a head scratcher in game decision that seems like common sense to everyone else? (2 point convo florida last year, not kicking the field goal this year). Why do none of our players seem to take significant steps forward?

Butch has pulled impressive recruiting classes yet why is it that it seems like all those high ranked recruits are still just barely getting by on talent alone? Those are the concerns when you look past the record.
 
#39
#39
majic73 said:
You are correct ...riding Mannings success and a NC. LSU and Bama could field entire teams higher ranked than all but a few with instate recruits if they chose too. We are not in the ball park of that.

Manning , by all accounts , was a great recruiter
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Tennessee may not be as fertile as some states but when Tennessee is winning, we recruit the country. And honestly we don't even have to be winning to recruit well, we just need a competent coach and not some imposter.
 
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#40
#40
Hmm..

Saban's mentor: bill belichik, arguably greatest football coach of all time (behind GRN of course) and master of handling the media

Butch's mentor: Brian Kelly? about to get fired from ND.. rich Rodriguez? another major success when he got called up ito the big time..currently killing it at Arizona with a solid 1 conference win

I think it's really that simple, butch wasn't prepared for the big time, obviously one of the risks when hiring an "up and comer".

However he has met expectations recruiting and for the florida monkey off our back this year s I'm still hoping he proves me wrong next year and gets the monkey off his own back
 
#41
#41
majic73 said:
Butch is not by any stretch of the imagination at a recruiting mecca. He cannot instantly put together a team of 4 and 5 recruits with in-state talent. I think Kiffin had the right idea with NFL marketing ...and the reason he did that ?? Its tough to recruit in TN due to the lack of an in-state base.

The next coach ...if that happens is going to have the same struggles . It will take several years of top 5 recruiting ( not guaranteed ) to even have a chance to showcase his coaching skill
Click to expand...

Lack of in state base? Please. there is plenty of talent in state, the problem is that schools like Alabama come in and pluck our top tier players every year, studs like Hightower. I can think of at least 5 players off the top of my head currently playing on sundays from TN that did not got to UT. Grant it some of them were coming out during the Dooley era, but still

Certainly states like FL and GA have more volume but if we locked down 15 of the top 20 players in the state every year and snagged a few from elsewhere in the southeast we would be fine. In state talent only getting better too. Nashville and Murfreesboro blowing up.
 
#43
#43
vol66 said:
I have no issue with what you are saying. One time in the history of Tennessee football since I have been alive have the powers that be gone out and hired a proven football coach and Johnny Majors never duplicated the National Championship he won at Pittsburgh here in Knoxville.

We just got a new Chancellor, we are waiting on a new AD and the powers that be aren't going to fire a coach that went 8-4 at this time...it would be stupid and we can't afford it anyway.
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I'm still a little bitter about not winning the national title in 1989. Man, what a team. That whipping at hands of Bama the only blemish. I think that team could have beaten anyone at the end of the season.
 
#44
#44
bigroxtar said:
For Saban to succeed at Michigan State. Just sayin... chill out.
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UT's expectations and competition are significantly higher than Saban's was.

When Saban finally had his break out year, he was on a sizzling hot seat and escaped as quickly as he could to LSU.

Saban's TRUE breakout came at LSU... not MSU.

Regardless, Jones isn't getting the job done and has not demonstrated the skill necessary to compete in the SEC.
 
#45
#45
bigroxtar said:
For Saban to succeed at Michigan State. Just sayin... chill out.
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:lolabove:

All we heard on here back in '13 was that it took Saban 2 years to turn Bama around. Now we're going back further to his Mich. St. days?
 
#46
#46
majic73 said:
...then he was 9-4 . He didn't get fired. He was in another recruiting mecca . He lost just enough games despite this to stay out of the NC most years .

The TSSAA sucks and high school sports suffers here due to their cumbersome anti athletics philosophy. UT recruiting is tough and unreliable due to having to pull recruits from other peoples back yards . Our historical win loss record reflects the mood swings of our recruiting classes
Click to expand...

Spurrier won the ACC at Duke in year 3, their only conference title since 1962, and dominated his biggest rival there.

Then, in the SEC, he won the conference 5 times in his first 7 years--when UF had zero conference titles before he got there--with 10 or more wins in each of those seasons and 9 wins in the other two.

That is not struggling. This is ridiculous
 
#47
#47
vol66 said:
I meant for the school doing the hiring. Florida took a chance on an up and comer, it worked out. After he failed in the NFL, USCe took a chance and they had their best run...After Saban bailed on the Dolphins and had a bad first season at Alabama were the Tide fans sure that it was going to turn out like this?

Besides comparing a Coach like Jones to HOF type guys...not sure that works out most of time, right?
Click to expand...

People don't understand that not all "up and comers" are created equal. Spurrier was a much stronger candidate than Butch was.
 
#48
#48
majic73 said:
and yet they are usually nearby by us in the recruiting polls. I am guessing they do a little better in state than we do . In any case MSU is a more comparable situation than Alabama or Louisiana recruiting. Alabama ( the state ) is currently the number one recruiting state in the country turning out more D1 athletes than any other state. TN is not even ranked
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2001
Tennessee: 4
MSU: 44

2002
Tennessee: 3
MSU: 27

2003
Tennessee: 10
MSU: 68

2004
Tennessee: 11
MSU: 14

2005
Tennessee: 3
MSU: 34

2010
Tennessee: 9
MSU: 21

2011
Tennessee: 14
MSU: 32

2012
Tennessee: 20
MSU: 33

2013
Tennessee: 24
MSU: 35

2014
Tennessee: 7
MSU: 25

2015
Tennessee: 4
MSU: 22

2016
Tennessee: 14
MSU: 17

"Usually nearby?"
 
#49
#49
majic73 said:
and yet they are usually nearby by us in the recruiting polls. I am guessing they do a little better in state than we do . In any case MSU is a more comparable situation than Alabama or Louisiana recruiting. Alabama ( the state ) is currently the number one recruiting state in the country turning out more D1 athletes than any other state. TN is not even ranked
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Georgia and North Carolina are and always have been part of our recruiting base (to say nothing of Florida). It's crazy to limit to state boundaries and act like Memphis is part of our base but not Georgia, when northern GA is much much closer to campus.
 
#50
#50
majic73 said:
Thats the whole point of the discussion. Saban at MSU was not a HOF...he was swimming up river . He went to a recruiting Mecca and he is now a HOF. Spurrier went to a recruiting mecca and did well but have numerous short comings for the talent he had. He went to Scar and had great success ...but not a recruiting destination so the success was tempered
Click to expand...

Saban at MSU was under sanction and still beat #1 on the road, then gave them their best season in 35 years. His success was not exactly hard to see coming and Spurrier's was even more obvious.

Butch is not by any stretch of the imagination at a recruiting mecca. He cannot instantly put together a team of 4 and 5 recruits with in-state talent. I think Kiffin had the right idea with NFL marketing ...and the reason he did that ?? Its tough to recruit in TN due to the lack of an in-state base.

The next coach ...if that happens is going to have the same struggles . It will take several years of top 5 recruiting ( not guaranteed ) to even have a chance to showcase his coaching skill
Click to expand...

You don't have to be in a loaded state to be a recruiting mecca. Proximity matters much more than arbitrary state boundaries do.

The last sentence is completely ridiculous. Coaching skill, or lack thereof, is fairly self-evident even early on.
 
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