Israel vs Palestinians

#33,976
#33,976
Smokey123 said:
Did the holocaust happen in Gaza?

I was being sarcastic on the 2nd part. I don’t base my moral compass off what other people’s concerns. If Israel lost this war and was ethnically cleansed it would be wrong. If Gaza gets ethnically cleansed it’s wrong. This shouldn’t be hard to agree to
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I’m aware you were. October 7th was also morally wrong. Once you start a war, a lot of morally wrong things tend to go down. If this prevents future bloodshed, I’m open
 
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#33,977
#33,977
Smokey123 said:
I stand by what I said.

Are there “justified” wars? Yes. I still believe you have a moral obligation to not recklessly kill innocent civilians, when you fail to do so it’s hard to stand on any moral ground

Further more the way Israel has handled Gaza doesn’t just hurt Palestinian it also hurts Jews
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I don’t think they’ve mishandled Gaza. Nor do I think they recklessly kill innocent civilians.

Once again, there’s no perfect answer in a war. If Hamas didn’t start a war, we wouldn’t be in this situation.
 
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#33,981
#33,981
Vol8188 said:
I don’t think they’ve mishandled Gaza. Nor do I think they recklessly kill innocent civilians.

Once again, there’s no perfect answer in a war. If Hamas didn’t start a war, we wouldn’t be in this situation.
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You’re free to think that, doesn’t change the fact you’re wrong. It’s not just about what has taken place between 10/7-present

If Israel doesn’t enable Hamas 10/7 doesn’t happen
 
#33,982
#33,982
volfanhill said:
If we were in WWII situation again we would ignore international law and bomb the **** out of whoever we needed to.

Morality was brought up earlier. Does a government have a moral obligation to insure the safety of its citizens before those they are at war with? If so what's the trade off on that? Looping @McDad in bc I'm curious his thoughts on that.
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If a government thought this way, they would simply talk themselves into every instance of killing civilians being "necessary to protect their own," just like the Israel supporters in this thread
 
#33,984
#33,984
Smokey123 said:
Nobody is suggesting 10/7 wasn’t morally reprehensible

There’s nothing to suggest this will prevent future bloodshed
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Why would it not prevent bloodshed? If there are no Palestinians in Gaza, events like October 7th do not happen.

I never claimed you were suggesting October 7th is morally acceptable. You are however failing to accept that poor moral choices are constant in wars. If you don’t want to put people in the situation of having to make those choices, avoiding war would be the obvious answer.

Instead Hamas openly tries to not only create war, but to create civilian casualties. And they’re overwhelmingly supported by the people of Gaza.

When you place another group in the situation of continuing to face random missile attacks and occasional greater attacks like October 7th; you force them into a bad situation. When you intentionally use your own people as shields, intentionally attack your own people in food lines, etc you create moral dilemmas.

It feels like you’re presenting a child like argument where you believe civilians and infrastructure can be left unharmed and all moral dilemmas can be perfectly avoided. That’s not reality. Wars are fought in reality.
 
#33,987
#33,987
OrangeTsar said:
What is the false part of analogy exactly?
Was it a) Muslims invaded Western Europe throughout history or b) Western Countries are currently openly encouraging Muslims to come in to their counties?
Please elaborate. You are making no sense whatsoever
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Do you know the difference between invasion by a state and arrival of civilians as immigrants? Your analogy is like saying Poland and Italy invaded the US in the early 1900's.
 
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#33,988
#33,988
volfanhill said:
If we were in WWII situation again we would ignore international law and bomb the **** out of whoever we needed to.

Morality was brought up earlier. Does a government have a moral obligation to insure the safety of its citizens before those they are at war with? If so what's the trade off on that? Looping @McDad in bc I'm curious his thoughts on that.
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I think the main job and a moral obligation of a government is to protect their citizens. I don’t think killing civilians helps ensures their safety
 
#33,989
#33,989
volfanhill said:
If we were in WWII situation again we would ignore international law and bomb the **** out of whoever we needed to.

Morality was brought up earlier. Does a government have a moral obligation to insure the safety of its citizens before those they are at war with? If so what's the trade off on that? Looping @McDad in bc I'm curious his thoughts on that.
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We didn't need to bomb a whole lot of what we bombed in WWII. Flattening residential blocks served no military purpose in Europe or SEA. Japan had a lot of home war production so there was some justification there.
 
#33,990
#33,990
Vol8188 said:
Why would it not prevent bloodshed? If there are no Palestinians in Gaza, events like October 7th do not happen.

I never claimed you were suggesting October 7th is morally acceptable. You are however failing to accept that poor moral choices are constant in wars. If you don’t want to put people in the situation of having to make those choices, avoiding war would be the obvious answer.

Instead Hamas openly tries to not only create war, but to create civilian casualties. And they’re overwhelmingly supported by the people of Gaza.

When you place another group in the situation of continuing to face random missile attacks and occasional greater attacks like October 7th; you force them into a bad situation. When you intentionally use your own people as shields, intentionally attack your own people in food lines, etc you create moral dilemmas.

It feels like you’re presenting a child like argument where you believe civilians and infrastructure can be left unharmed and all moral dilemmas can be perfectly avoided. That’s not reality. Wars are fought in reality.
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It’s not going to end a radical ideology if anything it spreads it. Hamas isn’t the only militia that wants to end Israel.

I’m fully aware poor moral choices happen during war. Some people excuse them, I don’t.

Hamas is evil and propping them up and funding them was a morally reprehensible disaster that resulted in the death of thousands of innocent Jewish and Palestinian civilians and the people that did that should have to answer for it

I never said they’ll be perfectly unharmed. Reading must be hard for you
 
#33,992
#33,992
Smokey123 said:
It’s not going to end a radical ideology if anything it spreads it. Hamas isn’t the only militia that wants to end Israel.

I’m fully aware poor moral choices happen during war. Some people excuse them, I don’t.

Hamas is evil and propping them up and funding them was a morally reprehensible disaster that resulted in the death of thousands of innocent Jewish and Palestinian civilians and the people that did that should have to answer for it

I never said they’ll be perfectly unharmed. Reading must be hard for you
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Your first sentence reeks of soft racism. The “you can’t fight terrorism! You’ll only create more”. The same disingenuous and racist argument isolationist have been making for decades now.

The question isn’t “do poor moral choices” happen in wars. It’s “are people forced into poor moral choices in war”. If so, it’s childish not to excuse them.

Sure, you never said they’d be perfectly unharmed, yet you continue to criticize the efforts of an army who is the literal only group attempting to limit civilian casualties on either side. It’s amazing
 
#33,993
#33,993
Smokey123 said:
I think the main job and a moral obligation of a government is to protect their citizens. I don’t think killing civilians helps ensures their safety
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Good. You should fully support removing Hamas. A government we agree intentionally murders their own citizens and uses them as human shields.
 
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#33,994
#33,994
Smokey123 said:
I do agree, but we both know it was never actually going to happen
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I can’t remember.
Have you been there?

I once read were Arafat said he would have been killed by his own people if he took the deal.
I looked but can’t locate it now.

But I do agree with you. There are people on both sides sowing the seeds of hate.

It does appear that most of the Middle East is over it now and wants to normalize relations…..who knows how that will turn out
 
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#33,995
#33,995
volfanhill said:
If we were in WWII situation again we would ignore international law and bomb the **** out of whoever we needed to.

Morality was brought up earlier. Does a government have a moral obligation to insure the safety of its citizens before those they are at war with? If so what's the trade off on that? Looping @McDad in bc I'm curious his thoughts on that.
Click to expand...
We’ve already been told in this thread that Israel has a greater responsibility to the people of Gaza than the elected leaders of Gaza do.
 
#33,997
#33,997
Vol8188 said:
Your first sentence reeks of soft racism. The “you can’t fight terrorism! You’ll only create more”. The same disingenuous and racist argument isolationist have been making for decades now.

The question isn’t “do poor moral choices” happen in wars. It’s “are people forced into poor moral choices in war”. If so, it’s childish not to excuse them.

Sure, you never said they’d be perfectly unharmed, yet you continue to criticize the efforts of an army who is the literal only group attempting to limit civilian casualties on either side. It’s amazing
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I’m starting to question if you read anything. I’ve never said don’t fight Hamas. I would be happy if Hamas was eradicated. Forcing Gaza into Jordan and Egypt doesn’t do that

That’s the dumbest **** I’ve heard in my life. People are forced to do immoral things every day just because you’re forced to do something doesn’t excuse it
 
#33,998
#33,998
NashVol11 said:
You have sassy comments toward everyone until 8188 says something racist to me, then it's crickets forever
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Gotta be honest. I don’t read most of your interactions with anyone beyond me. I enjoy play fighting with you so on occasion I read something and stir the flames.

I was unaware you needed my support.
I’ll try harder to make you feel more comfortable
 
#33,999
#33,999
Smokey123 said:
Good question. I’ve gone back and forth on it personally. That may have been the only way to limit further American casualties. A ground invasion would have resulted in hundreds of thousands more
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This feels contradictory to your own words.

Smokey123 said:
The best moral outcome will never be recklessly killing innocent civilians
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Once a country forces you into war, they force you to make tough decisions where the most moral outcome isn’t also clear. That’s why I find your last comment here to be childish.

Smokey123 said:
I’m fully aware poor moral choices happen during war. Some people excuse them, I don’t.
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