Israel vs Palestinians II



Joint Declaration of the Ministers of Foreign Affairs of Greece and Italy on the Global Sumud Flotilla​



Greece and Italy are closely monitoring developments in the Global Sumud Flotilla and call on the Israeli authorities to ensure the safety and security of the participants and to allow for all consular protection measures.

We, the Ministers of Foreign Affairs of the Hellenic Republic and the Italian Republic, appeal to the women and men of the Flotilla to accept the Latin Patriarchate of Jerusalem's offer to safely deliver aid intended in solidarity with the children, women, and men of Gaza.

Thanks to the diplomatic initiative of US President Donald J. Trump, for the first time there is a concrete possibility of ending this brutal conflict and the suffering of the Palestinian population, including through full humanitarian access.

Greece and Italy reaffirm the need to guarantee humanitarian access to Gaza and reach a ceasefire as soon as possible.

At this delicate juncture, everyone must refrain from initiatives that could be exploited by those who still reject peace.

October 1, 2025
 
In the article I've been referencing, the one where you agreed i gave an accurate summary, it stated Iran is supplying weapons.

You're approaching a precarious place for your thoughts. Palestinians need to arm themselves, they're building inaccurate rockets (for defense), and you're not sure how much in resources that took away from infrastructure. All the while, Iran is helping them "defend" themselves.

You may want to explore those things. Could be an important development in how you form opinions about Hamas.
You may want to read my post again. Your summary is a bit slanted, no?
I agreed that the bullet points you listed were in the article. I didn't do a thorough comparison though.
What's precarious about it?
 
I agreed that the bullet points you listed were in the article. I didn't do a thorough comparison though.
What's precarious about it?
It seems to me, the article is only favorable to Palestinians (Hamas controlled Palestinians) when one approaches every negative point against Palestine with, "that's Israel's fault".

But there are many things happening inside of Gaza that are under the direct control of Hamas.
* getting weapons from another country, but using infrastructure supplies to make inaccurate weapons.
* Hamas is not allowing elections for almost 20 years.
* Hamas is murdering Palestinians who "collaborate" with Israel.

My position, Gazans have shown no ability to self govern, seems supported by the article. Had the opportunity. Lasted about a year. Terrorists took over and have never relinquished. I would think that puts your thoughts in a precarious position (as in unsupported and in danger of falling apart).
 
  • Like
Reactions: Rickyvol77
Listening to this story it's far past time we started taking The Muslim Brotherhood seriously........ When their counterparts in the region want nothing to do with them you have to consider why that might be.
Agreed 100%



Speaking the truth not acceptable at the UN as it is a majority Muslim body that must be Sharia compliant. Get the MEMO fellow leftists. The 'Free Palestine' cause is the overthrow of the West plan of the Muslim brotherhood as outlined in their document called "The Project".


 
It seems to me, the article is only favorable to Palestinians (Hamas controlled Palestinians) when one approaches every negative point against Palestine with, "that's Israel's fault".

But there are many things happening inside of Gaza that are under the direct control of Hamas.
* getting weapons from another country, but using infrastructure supplies to make inaccurate weapons.
* Hamas is not allowing elections for almost 20 years.
* Hamas is murdering Palestinians who "collaborate" with Israel.

My position, Gazans have shown no ability to self govern, seems supported by the article. Had the opportunity. Lasted about a year. Terrorists took over and have never relinquished. I would think that puts your thoughts in a precarious position (as in unsupported and in danger of falling apart).
I linked that article to show examples of Israeli restrictions on Gaza which stunted economic and political progress. That was in reply to some ninny who said that Gaza had had years to become Switzerland but didn't want to or some such tripe. We can add Israel's support of Gaza to what's listed in the article.
Hamas has shown little to no propensity to govern well. That doesn't disqualify other Palestinians though, because hamas is not every Palestinian. If I remember correctly they didn't get a majority of the votes in the one election they won. Israel later helped them usurp absolute power. To me that shows that Israel's too incompetent to be trusted with control of the territory.
p.s. you may want to read my edit on the previous post
 
  • Like
Reactions: McDad
I linked that article to show examples of Israeli restrictions on Gaza which stunted economic and political progress. That was in reply to some ninny who said that Gaza had had years to become Switzerland but didn't want to or some such tripe. We can add Israel's support of Gaza to what's listed in the article.
Hamas has shown little to no propensity to govern well. That doesn't disqualify other Palestinians though, because hamas is not every Palestinian. If I remember correctly they didn't get a majority of the votes in the one election they won. Israel later helped them usurp absolute power. To me that shows that Israel's too incompetent to be trusted with control of the territory.
p.s. you may want to read my edit on the previous post
Which one did you edit?...both the reply to me and the most recent look unedited. I'll read it if you point it out.

This is the crux of our conversation:
Hamas has shown little to no propensity to govern well. That doesn't disqualify other Palestinians though, because hamas is not every Palestinian.
My posts saying Palestinians have shown no ability to govern successfully is wholly compatible with what you posted, here. There is no doubt there are capable, sincere, and people willing to learn how to govern effectively. Where there is tremendous doubt is they are able or allowed to do so. When presented with the opportunity to self govern, the terrorists took over and then rule by force. I feel like I have been consistent with that point. Since the history of palestinian self governance is so damning, I pivoted to what is a viable alternative. Either A) Israel should be given control (because they are the most effective government in the area, or B) A panel of advisors and oversight should be installed to help get a functional government on its feet. I referenced the condition of Arab-Israeli citizens to illustrate that governance by Israel is viable.

I like to exchange ideas and learn how other think. None of this conversation will ever come to fruition. The conflict in the ME will continue until Jesus returns.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Orangeslice13
Which one did you edit?...both the reply to me and the most recent look unedited. I'll read it if you point it out.

This is the crux of our conversation:

My posts saying Palestinians have shown no ability to govern successfully is wholly compatible with what you posted, here. There is no doubt there are capable, sincere, and people willing to learn how to govern effectively. Where there is tremendous doubt is they are able or allowed to do so. When presented with the opportunity to self govern, the terrorists took over and then rule by force. I feel like I have been consistent with that point. Since the history of palestinian self governance is so damning, I pivoted to what is a viable alternative. Either A) Israel should be given control (because they are the most effective government in the area, or B) A panel of advisors and oversight should be installed to help get a functional government on its feet. I referenced the condition of Arab-Israeli citizens to illustrate that governance by Israel is viable.

I like to exchange ideas and learn how other think. None of this conversation will ever come to fruition. The conflict in the ME will continue until Jesus returns.
In your synopsis there aren't you overlooking Israel's role in Gaza's poor leadership to date? They sure haven't been effective for the good there.
 
In your synopsis there aren't you overlooking Israel's role in Gaza's poor leadership to date? They sure haven't been effective for the good there.
Possibly.

That becomes largely moot for me once I compare the dynamics of Arabs in Gaza and Arab-Israelis. That illustrates to me that Israel isn't against all Palestinians. They are against dangerous Palestinians. In that fight, innocent (non dangerous) Pales are harmed. Just as non dangerous Jews are harmed by dangerous Pales.

Both want the other completely out of the region.
 
Possibly.

That becomes largely moot for me once I compare the dynamics of Arabs in Gaza and Arab-Israelis. That illustrates to me that Israel isn't against all Palestinians. They are against dangerous Palestinians. In that fight, innocent (non dangerous) Pales are harmed. Just as non dangerous Jews are harmed by dangerous Pales.

Both want the other completely out of the region.
Yet they've taken land from, bombed the life out of, and generally oppressed Palestinians regardless. I think that gives lie to that second sentence.
 
  • Like
Reactions: NashVol11
Yet they've taken land from, bombed the life out of, and generally oppressed Palestinians regardless. I think that gives lie to that second sentence.
If that is your opinion, I feel like you have to account for the difference of the Arab experience in Gaza compared to the experience of the Arab-Israeli. I feel like I have done that on my opinion.
 
I may be the only one who feels this way, and I have expressed this view a few times before.
But it seems to me that if Israel wanted to completely eradicate Arabs in Gaza, they could do so easily. Perhaps it is international "pressure" which keeps them in their lane. Or, maybe they don't want to fight multiple Arab countries who may come to Gaza's defense. I look at it like I look at me fighting Mike Tyson. If I last 6 rounds, it has absolutely nothing to do with me and everything to do with Tyson allowing me to remain upright.
 
If that is your opinion, I feel like you have to account for the difference of the Arab experience in Gaza compared to the experience of the Arab-Israeli. I feel like I have done that on my opinion.
There are just as many Arabs living in peace in Israel as there are Arabs in Gaza. Just over 2 million in each case so you’re making a valid comparison
 
  • Like
Reactions: McDad
There are just as many Arabs living in peace in Israel as there are Arabs in Gaza. Just over 2 million in each case so you’re making a valid comparison
Thanks. That agrees with the last population survey I looked at online. I think slightly less in Israel (under 2M) and 2.1M in Gaza.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Orangeslice13
Netanyahu already telling people he won't withdraw troops. This guy can't be trusted at all. This is an Intercept article that makes some points that illustrate some of my concerns (I scraped the source code to get past the paywall):

<p>Similar to previous ceasefire proposals throughout Israel’s genocidal war on Gaza, the recent plan calls for the immediate cessation of fighting, an exchange of Israeli and Palestinian prisoners, the disarmament of Hamas, and the gradual withdrawal of the Israeli military from Gaza.</p>

<p>Where this plan differs is that U.S. officials are attempting to spell out what a post-war Gaza would look like.</p>

<p>The plan states that “Israel will not occupy or annex Gaza” and that “no one will be forced to leave Gaza.” Palestinians would have the ability to leave or return, a reversal from Trump’s previous calls to <a href="Trump: “The U.S. Will Take Over the Gaza Strip”">expel all Palestinians</a> from the territory. Yet experts cautioned that these assurances do not indicate a reversal of policy for the Israeli government, which has been consistent in its goals toward the <a href="Israel Gives Evacuation Orders Before a Bombing. Many Gazan Families Can’t Afford to Leave.">displacement</a> of Palestinians from Gaza and total control over the territory.</p>
<p>Trump’s plan allows for Israel to have veto power during the military withdrawal phases, with terms largely set by the U.S. and Israel. Internal security of Gaza would then be managed by a so-called International Stabilization Force, led by the U.S. and other Arab states. Even after withdrawal from Gaza, the plan calls for “a security perimeter” around Gaza maintained by the Israeli military until the territory is “secure from any resurgent terror threat.”&nbsp;</p>
<p>Allowing Israel to maintain such a security perimeter around Gaza all but guarantees Israel the opportunity to indefinitely occupy the territory in a similar manner to the decadeslong blockade that rendered Gaza an open-air prison preceding Hamas’s October 7, 2023, attacks. In 2005, Israel withdrew its military from and dismantled its settlements within Gaza, but the Israeli military remained in control of its borders. Experts said the new proposal promises a similar chokehold on the territory, along with the possible resumption of Israel’s military campaign.</p>
<p>“This is a continuation of the occupation, if not a continuation of the war by other means,” said Amjad Iraqi, a senior analyst on Israel/Palestine with the International Crisis Group. “Palestinians might be able to stay in Gaza, but they will not be able to really govern its affairs.”&nbsp;</p>
<p>At Monday’s conference, Netanyahu thanked Trump, “the greatest friend that Israel ever had in the White House,” for the plan, which he said allows his government the chance to “achieve all of our war objectives without any further bloodshed.”</p>
<p>But the Israeli leader reserved the right to “finish the job … the hard way” and resume its military campaign in Gaza if Hamas were to reject the deal or fail to meet its conditions. Immediately after the conference, in which the leaders declined to take questions from the press, Netanyahu posted a<a href=""> video</a> in Hebrew meant to address his coalition, promising that he does not intend to withdraw Israeli troops from Gaza.</p>
<p>As Hamas weighs how to respond to the plan, Trump on Tuesday threatened the Palestinian militant political group with “<a href="https://www.politico.com/news/2025/...ite-house-proposal-or-face-a-sad-end-00586421">a very sad end</a>” if it declines the deal. Trump said he would give Hamas “three to four days” to decide.</p>
<p>The plan already has buy-in from a number of Western nations, including the United Kingdom, France, and Australia, which all were new to recognize <a href="These Countries Recognized Palestine, but Still Send Arms to Israel">Palestinian statehood</a> last week. Other nations that welcome the plan include Spain, Italy, the Netherlands, China, and Russia. Also supporting the plan are a host of Arab and Muslim-majority nations, such as Egypt, Jordan, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, the United Arab Emirates, Pakistan, and Indonesia, which had received a draft of the plan one week earlier from the Trump administration at the United Nations headquarters. The West Bank-based <a href="For Palestinians, U.S. Talk of a “Revitalized” PA in Gaza Is Code for Outsourced Oppression">Palestinian Authority</a> also said it welcomed Trump’s plan.</p>
<h2 class="wp-block-heading" id="h-indefinite-occupation-of-gaza">Indefinite Occupation of Gaza</h2>
<p>Experts worry that Israel’s veto power in the new Gaza plan gives it freedom to resume its military campaign at any moment.</p>
<p>Netanyahu’s government has hardly been a trustworthy partner in peace agreements in recent years: Israel has <a href="Are Trump’s Middle East Envoys Pushing Lebanon Into Another Civil War?">repeatedly bombed Lebanon</a> even after signing a <a href="Israel Agrees to Stop Bombing Lebanon — So It Can Keep Bombing Gaza">deal with Hezbollah</a> last November, and in March, it broke the U.S.-brokered peace deal with Hamas by <a href="“A Purely Manmade Famine”: How Israel Is Starving Gaza">blocking all humanitarian aid</a> into Gaza and <a href="The Week the World Woke Up to the Genocide in Gaza">resuming its bombing campaign</a>, blaming Hamas for not releasing enough hostages, and falsely accusing the group of preparing new attacks on Israel.</p>

<h3 class="promote-related-post__title">Israel Violated the Gaza Ceasefire From the Start. Why Won’t the Media Tell You That?</h3>

<p>Regardless of whether Hamas rejects or accepts the plan, Israel is sure to continue its policy of mass removal of Palestinians from the territory, said Tariq Kenney-Shawa, a U.S. policy fellow at Al-Shabaka.</p>
<p>“If Hamas rejects the ceasefire proposal, that’ll give Israel the pretext to just steamroll Gaza City and do it in the way that Smotrich and Ben-Gvir want, which is all at once in one fell swoop,” Kenney-Shawa said. But even if Hamas were to follow all of Israel’s demands of disarmament and return of hostages, he said, there is little guarantee that Israel would not <a href="Israel Violated the Gaza Ceasefire From the Start. Why Won’t the Media Tell You That?">renege on the deal as it has in the past</a>.</p>
<p>For Ahmed Moor, a fellow with the Foundation for Middle East Peace, who was born in the Rafah refugee camp in Gaza, the Trump–Netanyahu meeting and the language in the deal echoes the <a href="How the Oslo Accords Betrayed the Palestinian Women Behind the First Intifada">Oslo Accords of 1993</a>, which had been intended as a two-state solution, only for Israel’s government to illegally expand its settlements on Palestinian land in the West Bank in the 30 years since.</p>
<p>“This is back to the future, right?” Moor said, recalling the 1993 scene on the White House’s South Lawn where Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin shook hands with Palestine Liberation Organization Chair Yasser Arafat. The Oslo deal, he said, is an example of Israel “front-loading” its demands while committing to the needs of Palestinians “at some indeterminate point in the future.”</p>

<p>In the hours since Monday’s announcement, the Israeli military has killed more than 50 Palestinians in Gaza, including five people who were attempting to receive aid, according to Gaza health officials. Meanwhile, settler violence against Palestinians in the West Bank, often sanctioned by the Israeli military, <a href="Israeli settlement activity accelerates in the West Bank, Security Council told">continued unabated</a> with Israeli settlers setting <a href="https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveb...uilding-in-a-west-bank-village-no-casualties/">fire to a building</a> outside a Palestinian village near Nablus on Tuesday evening.</p>
<p>“The Palestinians today need relief from genocide,” Moor said. “This document is not going to provide that.”</p>
<h2 class="wp-block-heading" id="h-paul-bremer-2-0">“Paul Bremer 2.0”</h2>
<p>The plan itself also envisions the installment of a transitional government called “a Board of Peace,” overseen by Trump and a panel that includes former U.K. Prime Minister Tony Blair, who since leaving office in 2007 has attempted to establish himself as a power broker between European and Middle East nations. In its purview would be the funding and redevelopment of Gaza, where wide swaths have been rendered <a href="Israel Just Bombed the Building Next Door. Will We Be Next?">uninhabitable </a>by Israel’s brutal military offensives.</p>

<p>Adding to the vagueness around the plans’ security details, it also calls for economic redevelopment led by those behind “some of the thriving modern miracle cities in the Middle East,” a vision that falls in line with Trump’s own musings for a Gaza Riviera. The plan looks to create a framework that would attract investment, as well as the creation of a “special economic zone” and tariff scheme for nations that agree to participate.&nbsp;</p>
<p>Moor called such aspects of the deal “a neocolonial plan designed to enrich Tony Blair and a few other people.” He further coined the plan “Paul Bremer 2.0,” a reference to the former U.S. State Department diplomat who served as the <a href="From the Rubble of the U.S. War in Iraq, Iran Built a New Order">head of the U.S. puppet government of occupied Iraq</a>. In other words, Gaza would be rendered “a fiefdom for other overlords to manage,” Iraqi added.</p>
 
  • Like
Reactions: EasternVol
Advertisement

Back
Top