ISIS Takes Control of Mosul

#328
#328
therealUT said:
Any US Navy pilot can capably fly a Hawk, seeing as the Hawk is used as a training machine for carrier landings in the US. Not every RAF pilot can fly a Hornet. Moreover, while it is fun to watch the Red Arrows, they are basically doing their intricate maneuvers in go-carts, while the Blue Angels are doing theirs in F-1 racers.

There are good reasons why the air support provided throughout Iraq and Afghanistan was predominantly provided by the US, even to British ground troops. They are just ****ing better.
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War in Afghanistan

5 December 2006: British Marine Private Jonathan Wigley's death was caused by gunfire from a U.S. F-18 aircraft.

July 2007: British Guardsman Matthew Lyne-Pirkis, of the Grenadier Guards, was wounded along with three other allied soldiers of the Afghan National Army after being hit by gunfire from a U.S. Apache helicopter gunship.

23 August 2007: A bomb dropped by an F-15 killed three soldiers of the Royal Anglian Regiment and wounded a further two.

21 December 2009: A British soldier was fatally shot by a US helicopter crew in Afghanistan who thought they were attacking an enemy base. Gunfire from the helicopters left 11 injured on the ground.

Iraq War

23 March 2003: A British Tornado jet was shot down by a U.S. Patriot missile, killing two crewmen.

28 March 2003: British Lance-Corporal of Horse Matty Hull was killed by U.S. A-10 jets as well as five others wounded in the 190th Fighter Squadron, Blues and Royals friendly fire incident.

6 April 2003: BBC World Affairs Editor John Simpson and members of his crew were injured when a bomb dropped from a U.S. F-15 aircraft hit a friendly Kurdish and U.S. Special Forces convoy, killing 15 people, including BBC translator Kamaran Abdurazaq Muhamed


The reason wasn't that your are just ****ing better, it was that you are just ****ing richer.
 
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#330
#330
alexmanu said:
War in Afghanistan

5 December 2006: British Marine Private Jonathan Wigley's death was caused by gunfire from a U.S. F-18 aircraft.

July 2007: British Guardsman Matthew Lyne-Pirkis, of the Grenadier Guards, was wounded along with three other allied soldiers of the Afghan National Army after being hit by gunfire from a U.S. Apache helicopter gunship.

23 August 2007: A bomb dropped by an F-15 killed three soldiers of the Royal Anglian Regiment and wounded a further two.

21 December 2009: A British soldier was fatally shot by a US helicopter crew in Afghanistan who thought they were attacking an enemy base. Gunfire from the helicopters left 11 injured on the ground.

Iraq War

23 March 2003: A British Tornado jet was shot down by a U.S. Patriot missile, killing two crewmen.

28 March 2003: British Lance-Corporal of Horse Matty Hull was killed by U.S. A-10 jets as well as five others wounded in the 190th Fighter Squadron, Blues and Royals friendly fire incident.

6 April 2003: BBC World Affairs Editor John Simpson and members of his crew were injured when a bomb dropped from a U.S. F-15 aircraft hit a friendly Kurdish and U.S. Special Forces convoy, killing 15 people, including BBC translator Kamaran Abdurazaq Muhamed


The reason wasn't that your are just ****ing better, it was that you are just ****ing richer.
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That's war mate
 
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#332
#332
Obsessed said:
That's war mate
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Yes it is but it counters TRUT's point. He's blinded by nationalism believing that US pilots are generally better than all others. This is patently false there are elite pilots in many many nations, including the USAF and RAF, and the idea that the USAF controlled most aerial operations in recent wars because they were "better" is an absurd assertion. It was because the US military forces had the most invested in each war and control of most operations hence they would obviously have the majority of aerial roles. It had nothing to do with air force quality. The USAF is one of the best in the world but there are many other air forces (especially allied ones) that can do a damn good job too.
 
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#334
#334
therealUT said:
Any US Navy pilot can capably fly a Hawk, seeing as the Hawk is used as a training machine for carrier landings in the US. Not every RAF pilot can fly a Hornet. Moreover, while it is fun to watch the Red Arrows, they are basically doing their intricate maneuvers in go-carts, while the Blue Angels are doing theirs in F-1 racers.

There are good reasons why the air support provided throughout Iraq and Afghanistan was predominantly provided by the US, even to British ground troops. They are just ****ing better.
Click to expand...

TRUT, you've kind of been more "in your face" here lately. You've finally dropped all that philosophy bull**** and become a true American. I welcome you!
 
#335
#335
alexmanu said:
War in Afghanistan

5 December 2006: British Marine Private Jonathan Wigley's death was caused by gunfire from a U.S. F-18 aircraft.

July 2007: British Guardsman Matthew Lyne-Pirkis, of the Grenadier Guards, was wounded along with three other allied soldiers of the Afghan National Army after being hit by gunfire from a U.S. Apache helicopter gunship.

23 August 2007: A bomb dropped by an F-15 killed three soldiers of the Royal Anglian Regiment and wounded a further two.

21 December 2009: A British soldier was fatally shot by a US helicopter crew in Afghanistan who thought they were attacking an enemy base. Gunfire from the helicopters left 11 injured on the ground.

Iraq War

23 March 2003: A British Tornado jet was shot down by a U.S. Patriot missile, killing two crewmen.

28 March 2003: British Lance-Corporal of Horse Matty Hull was killed by U.S. A-10 jets as well as five others wounded in the 190th Fighter Squadron, Blues and Royals friendly fire incident.

6 April 2003: BBC World Affairs Editor John Simpson and members of his crew were injured when a bomb dropped from a U.S. F-15 aircraft hit a friendly Kurdish and U.S. Special Forces convoy, killing 15 people, including BBC translator Kamaran Abdurazaq Muhamed


The reason wasn't that your are just ****ing better, it was that you are just ****ing richer.
Click to expand...

This is one hell of a red herring. Kudos on that.

Better does not mean perfect, and, well, war is pretty ****ing foggy (something you would not know, of course).

And, yes, there are friendly-fire events concerning British pilots as well.

As for the 'richer not better' line of reasoning, that is asinine. As much as the higher-ups like to play politics, they are still going to send in the very best men to do the job, especially when that job concerns supporting troops on the ground. The fact is that the US was repeatedly chosen to do that job. If two air support units were available, one US and one UK, the US was going to support the TIC first every damn time, whether the troops in contact were American or British.

This isn't a patriotic, mine is bigger than yours thing. It's a ****ing truth: the pilots in the USAF are the very best in the world. Now, if you want to argue which infantry is better, that of the US or that of the Brits, I'll gladly listen. The responsiveness of the US Army Infantry to unexpected conditions is incredibly slow; TTPs are slowly developed and slowly implemented. On the other hand, the British are not as encumbered by concrete tactical doctrine, they respond quickly, and implement more creative solutions on the ground.

But, when it comes to airpower and the individual prowess of the pilots, the argument that the Brits are even in the same league is absolutely inane.
 
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#337
#337
alexmanu said:
War in Afghanistan

5 December 2006: British Marine Private Jonathan Wigley's death was caused by gunfire from a U.S. F-18 aircraft.

July 2007: British Guardsman Matthew Lyne-Pirkis, of the Grenadier Guards, was wounded along with three other allied soldiers of the Afghan National Army after being hit by gunfire from a U.S. Apache helicopter gunship.

23 August 2007: A bomb dropped by an F-15 killed three soldiers of the Royal Anglian Regiment and wounded a further two.

21 December 2009: A British soldier was fatally shot by a US helicopter crew in Afghanistan who thought they were attacking an enemy base. Gunfire from the helicopters left 11 injured on the ground.

Iraq War

23 March 2003: A British Tornado jet was shot down by a U.S. Patriot missile, killing two crewmen.

28 March 2003: British Lance-Corporal of Horse Matty Hull was killed by U.S. A-10 jets as well as five others wounded in the 190th Fighter Squadron, Blues and Royals friendly fire incident.

6 April 2003: BBC World Affairs Editor John Simpson and members of his crew were injured when a bomb dropped from a U.S. F-15 aircraft hit a friendly Kurdish and U.S. Special Forces convoy, killing 15 people, including BBC translator Kamaran Abdurazaq Muhamed


The reason wasn't that your are just ****ing better, it was that you are just ****ing richer.
Click to expand...

There is probably some truth to this.
 
#339
#339
therealUT said:
This is one hell of a red herring. Kudos on that.

Better does not mean perfect, and, well, war is pretty ****ing foggy (something you would not know, of course).

And, yes, there are friendly-fire events concerning British pilots as well.

As for the 'richer not better' line of reasoning, that is asinine. As much as the higher-ups like to play politics, they are still going to send in the very best men to do the job, especially when that job concerns supporting troops on the ground. The fact is that the US was repeatedly chosen to do that job. If two air support units were available, one US and one UK, the US was going to support the TIC first every damn time, whether the troops in contact were American or British.

This isn't a patriotic, mine is bigger than yours thing. It's a ****ing truth: the pilots in the USAF are the very best in the world. Now, if you want to argue which infantry is better, that of the US or that of the Brits, I'll gladly listen. The responsiveness of the US Army Infantry to unexpected conditions is incredibly slow; TTPs are slowly developed and slowly implemented. On the other hand, the British are not as encumbered by concrete tactical doctrine, they respond quickly, and implement more creative solutions on the ground.

But, when it comes to airpower and the individual prowess of the pilots, the argument that the Brits are even in the same league is absolutely inane.
Click to expand...

You still have failed to prove that the individual prowess of pilots in the USAF is better. Your argument hinged on the fact that some USAF can fly Hornets, well some RAF pilots can fly Typhoons, it's a non-point.
 
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#341
#341
alexmanu said:
The USAF is one of the best in the world but there are many other air forces (especially allied ones) that can do a damn good job too.
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I can make some damn good BBQ, but I am not in the same league as Jack Fiorella.

Yes, the Brits can do a damn good job; but, that damn good job still falls well short of the job US pilots can do.

This is not blind nationalism, as I think there are a bevy of things that the US by and large is **** at. However, operating aircraft is not one of those things. It is, on the contrary, one of the things they are absolutely the best at.

You pick out less than 10 incidents over 12 years and tens of thousands of sorties and operations to make a point? It does not make a point, it shows that there are exceptions to the rule. I'd argue that the SAS is the most elite ground unit in the world; yet, I would not use the argument that they were dropped into trees to show they are not (nor even to show that the RAF is ****ty). I also would not refer to events in Iraq that inspired the book Bravo Two Zero to make an argument against the SAS, even though they ****ed themselves due to their own mistakes.
 
#342
#342
alexmanu said:
You still have failed to prove that the individual prowess of pilots in the USAF is better. Your argument hinged on the fact that some USAF can fly Hornets, well some RAF pilots can fly Typhoons, it's a non-point.
Click to expand...

The USAF doesn't fly Hornets at all, the F/A-18 is a navy bird.
 
#343
#343
alexmanu said:
You still have failed to prove that the individual prowess of pilots in the USAF is better. Your argument hinged on the fact that some USAF can fly Hornets, well some RAF pilots can fly Typhoons, it's a non-point.
Click to expand...

Wait, have your proved your point that the RAF pilots are just as good?

Nope.

It is an assertion I am making on my own observations and experiences. And, it is one that I think it quite clear to anyone who has ever witnessed these two institutions working side-by-side.
 
#347
#347
therealUT said:
Wait, have your proved your point that the RAF pilots are just as good?

Nope.

It is an assertion I am making on my own observations and experiences. And, it is one that I think it quite clear to anyone who has ever witnessed these two institutions working side-by-side.
Click to expand...

Well I guess we're gonna have to agree to disagree.
 
#348
#348
alexmanu said:
Well I guess we're gonna have to agree to disagree.
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That's fine. But, if you are ever in the ****, requesting air support, and you hear over the radio that they are sending British birds, your heart will drop just a bit. It drops the same way when you find out the only assets available for you are Kiowas and not Apaches. Yeah, the job will get done, but there is still a troubling feeling in your gut.
 
#349
#349
volprof said:
There is probably some truth to this.
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Unfortunately flying CAS, even with modern munitions, is still a dangerous arena. Especially in a place like Afghanistan where missions are often flown danger close.

Great strides in recent years have been able to help with the Blue on Blue casualties, but things like this will still happen.
 
#350
#350
therealUT said:
Iraq.
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Would you stop being so damn reserved and tentative and give me the info I need? :)

So what branch were you in? And in what capacity did you serve? What years did you serve?

I'm intrigued by these things. And I would love to know.

I'll hang up and listen.
 
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