Is this the most depressing time in UT history?

#151
#151
Shakinthefat said:
I’m thinking the 1943 season was the worst ever. We had no team!
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Yeah, you gotta love that while most of the SEC didn't have football teams due to WW2, that Army, Navy, Mich, and ND rolled right along - so much for northern patriotism.
 
#152
#152
jasonvol18 said:
There's no evidence that he won't, just like there was zero evidence when we hired Fulmer and Ga hired Smart. JaP will have no problem handling pressure, fans and the media. He has not shown anything to make us think otherwise. Yes I know it's Saban but he blows up at the media every week and has called the Ala fanbase out numerous handfuls during his time at Ala. Pruitt has dealt with Pressure all the way back to his HC coaching days so that's will be no concern. Just because a HC has previous HC experience it doesn't make him the better or safer hire. Being a HC at Colo St or someplace similar doesn't prepare a Coach for the pressure of being at an elite college football school. Every successful HC had to start somewhere and were better hires than some HC's with prior experience. Hiring a guy like Mike BoBo would be just as risky as hiring a first time HC. I would take Pruitt's resume and reputation over Mike BoBo or a similar type HC anyday.. BoBo has three 7-6 season's at Colo St and that was him following McElwain who went 8-5 and 10-3 prior to BoBo getting hired.
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Experience would say that Dickey, Fulmer, and Neyland were better HCs (first timers) than Majors, Kiffin, Dooley, and Jones. Battle was a bust, but a lot better AD (at Bama) than Hamilton, Hart, and Currie (professional ADs).
 
#154
#154
AM64 said:
Yeah, you gotta love that while most of the SEC didn't have football teams due to WW2, that Army, Navy, Mich, and ND rolled right along - so much for northern patriotism.
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Umm, AM64...did you just accuse Army and Navy of a lack of patriotism during WW II?

As if every single one of those cadets and midshipmen weren't already committed to joining the war effort as soon as they graduated?

Heh. Blue font?


p.s. I've never thought of Army or Navy as "northern schools." They're too much a part of the lifeblood of the entire nation to fit any regional cubbyhole. Plus, Navy's not even in the North--Maryland is usually classified a border state, like Kentucky or Missouri.
 
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#155
#155
Nope, no doom & gloom here. I refuse to acknowledge any possible scenario where the VOLS are not destined for the NC game....each & every season. Some call it delusional, I call it unwarranted eternal optimism, give it a shot it'll help....Also noteworthy: In my March Madness Bracket I always have UT taking it all. Do I really have that much confidence? Nope not a chance but we are adults cheering for kids, no need to keep it real. Fans of rival teams know exactly where I stand!
 
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#158
#158
VFL-82-JP said:
Thanks, Jon, that's awesome. You absolutely backed up your assertion.

Well...sort of. Fulmer did say that 8 is good, not great, but good. He said you decide as a Vol fan whether you're going to be an optimist or a pessimist about how that season turned out. And he was showing his optimistic approach.

Got it.

Now, the thing that's missing is him saying it's "enough."

As in, you don't ever have to win more, "eight is enough at Tennessee."

See, I don't think he said that. Well, it's not what I think, it's just a fact. He did not say that. But I also don't think he MEANT that. In context, what it seems he meant is that, we have good years and bad years, and given where we've been recently (he was discussing the 2016 season, so the recently he was looking at was a 5-7, then 7-6, then 9-4 previous record, with another 9-4 possibly to come), given where we've been recently, 8 is good, not great, but good.

In other words, that he saw us as continuing to climb out of the pit of misery in 2016.

Of course, he couldn't know--just like we couldn't--how badly the wheels would fall off in 2017. He, like many of us, may have had concerns about Butch, but he was doing a lot like I do, not talking ill of the sitting head coach, being supportive as long as the guy wore orange.

[keep in mind, Phil wasn't AD in December 2016 -- today, he'd have a very different set of responsibilities for assessing the head coach's performance].

So it's really all about context, and you kind of totally missed the context of his comment about 8 wins.

...

At the end of the day, though, JGA, you brought it. You had facts to back up (more or less) your assertion. My hat's off to you, and I appreciate you bringing it to the conversation.

Go Vols!
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I just got my daily affirmation from reading this and seeing your approval ( sort of).

Thanks buddy !!!
 
#160
#160
jasonvol18 said:
We are not behind the 8ball with Fla or S.Carolina. We will always out recruit SCe and have much better players, resources and facilities. We have higher rated classes on a 5 yr average than Fla and SCe. Even Butch beat Ga a few times with much lesser talent. Ala is Ala and will be till Saban leaves. On the field Auburn shouldn't even be a thought. Yea we have to recruit against them but they will get players no matter what their record is. Not sure you've watched Fla last yr but they looked just as bad as we did.
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Why do you keep mentioning 5 year average? Most players are gone between years 3 and 4. Seems arbitrary.

We’ll compare 2 deeps in August. See how we stack up against the competition in star ratings and upperclassmen.
 
#161
#161
99gator said:
First, I will say that for every program....the program is the right head coach away from (insert whatever hopes and dreams one has for a program).

But, to say the program had some "bad years" or "all programs go through cycles" or the "program has been down" is understating what has happened.
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Would a good example of the opposite of this be replacing Urban Meyer with Will Muschamp? Misery loves company aye?
 
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#162
#162
VFL-82-JP said:
Umm, AM64...did you just accuse Army and Navy of a lack of patriotism during WW II?

As if every single one of those cadets and midshipmen weren't already committed to joining the war effort as soon as they graduated?

Heh. Blue font?


p.s. I've never thought of Army or Navy as "northern schools." They're too much a part of the lifeblood of the entire nation to fit any regional cubbyhole. Plus, Navy's not even in the North--Maryland is usually classified a border state, like Kentucky or Missouri.
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Would I judge a school like ND for lack of patriotism - yeah. Army and Navy - no, but Army and Navy did some real rule bending during WW2, and dominated college football. I guess maybe it's sour grapes that when many schools find it difficult to field a team due to the war effort, that others seemed to have no such problem or respect that others did - padding win records against rivals who couldn't participate seems shameful.

I agree that Army and Navy aren't northern schools in the respect that MI and ND are. And by the way I am very much from a military family - almost every generation back to the Revolutionary War, so I definitely do not have an anti military biased bone in my body.
 
#164
#164
VFL-82-JP said:
Umm, AM64...did you just accuse Army and Navy of a lack of patriotism during WW II?

As if every single one of those cadets and midshipmen weren't already committed to joining the war effort as soon as they graduated?

Heh. Blue font?


p.s. I've never thought of Army or Navy as "northern schools." They're too much a part of the lifeblood of the entire nation to fit any regional cubbyhole. Plus, Navy's not even in the North--Maryland is usually classified a border state, like Kentucky or Missouri.
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Dude . . . Maryland is IN THE NORTH.
 
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#165
#165
AM64 said:
Would I judge a school like ND for lack of patriotism - yeah. Army and Navy - no, but Army and Navy did some real rule bending during WW2, and dominated college football. I guess maybe it's sour grapes that when many schools find it difficult to field a team due to the war effort, that others seemed to have no such problem or respect that others did - padding win records against rivals who couldn't participate seems shameful.
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Brother, you misinterpret the 1943 college football season somewhat.

The SEC was unique in most of its schools cancelling the '43 season. No other conference shut it down anywhere near that extent.

In fact, of the 65 programs that make up the current Power 5, only about 15 or so didn't play in '43. Most did play.

What rules do you believe the academies "bent" that year?


EDIT: adding a bit of data. Here are some of the schools who played the '43 season. This isn't all of them, just the ones I found in an article that listed some of the results, plus another place where I found the Top 20 rankings:

Arkansas, Cal, Colorado, Duke, Georgia, Georgia Tech, Indiana, Kansas, LSU, Maryland, Michigan, Minnesota, North Carolina, North Carolina State, Northwestern, Notre Dame, Ohio State, Oklahoma, Oklahoma State, Penn State, Purdue, South Carolina, TCU, Texas, Texas A&M, USC, Virginia, Washington, Wisconsin

Army and Navy weren't good back in those years because "no one else was playing football, and they were padding their stats." They were good because a lot of patriotic young men who happened to be good football players went to the academies. Period.


p.p.s. In case you still think Army was "padding stats" in '43. That wasn't anywhere near the school's best year. The Black Knights only went 7-2-1 in '43. Much better were '44 (9-0, national champs), '45 (9-0, national champs), '46 (9-0-1, national champs), '48 (8-0-1, #2 in the nation), '49 (9-0, #4 in the country), '50 (8-1, #4), and '58 (8-0-1, #3 in the nation).

And every single one of those years, the SEC played football.

The academies may not be very good these days, on a national level, but don't take away from them what they did earn. They were top tier teams in the middle of last century.

OrangeSoddyDaisy said:
Dude . . . Maryland is IN THE NORTH.
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Dude...no, it's not.

It was a border state in the Civil War, and today is often grouped with the southern states because it shares the milder winter climate of the South. And if you've ever lived in that area, you will recognize that Maryland certainly feels more like Virginia than New Jersey.

When Washington, D.C. was created (on the Virginia-Maryland border), the northerners complained that the nation was putting its new capital "down in the South." Which, we were. :)
 
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#166
#166
VFL-82-JP said:
Brother, you misinterpret the 1943 college football season somewhat.

The SEC was unique in most of its schools cancelling the '43 season. No other conference shut it down anywhere near that extent.

In fact, of the 65 programs that make up the current Power 5, only about 15 or so didn't play in '43. Most did play.

What rules do you believe the academies "bent" that year?


EDIT: adding a bit of data. Here are some of the schools who played the '43 season. This isn't all of them, just the ones I found in an article that listed some of the results, plus another place where I found the Top 20 rankings:

Arkansas, Cal, Colorado, Duke, Georgia, Georgia Tech, Indiana, Kansas, LSU, Maryland, Michigan, Minnesota, North Carolina, North Carolina State, Northwestern, Notre Dame, Ohio State, Oklahoma, Oklahoma State, Penn State, Purdue, South Carolina, TCU, Texas, Texas A&M, USC, Virginia, Washington, Wisconsin

Army and Navy weren't good back in those years because "no one else was playing football, and they were padding their stats." They were good because a lot of patriotic young men who happened to be good football players went to the academies. Period.



Dude...no, it's not.

It was a border state in the Civil War, and today is often grouped with the southern states because it shares the milder winter climate of the South. And if you've ever lived in that area, you will recognize that Maryland certainly feels more like Virginia than New Jersey.

When Washington, D.C. was created (on the Virginia-Maryland border), the northerners complained that the nation was putting its new capital "down in the South." Which, we were. :)
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There are many articles about how the military academies were so dominant in football during WW2. This one is pretty good

What made 1945 Army the greatest college football team of all time - SBNation.com

Since there were no draft deferments, the only safe place to play college sport was at the military academies, and the transfer rules were basically non existent. "Play for us" or go to war kind of thing.

What made this team so ridiculous, however, was depth.

Because of loose wartime transfer rules — the service academies were basically able to recruit all-star teams — and because Blaik was relentless in milking every advantage, this team featured plenty of stars from other schools.

Halfback Shorty McWilliams was an All-American for Mississippi State in 1944 and returned to Starkville in 1946; in 1945, he was a backup good enough to finish eighth in the Heisman voting. Fullback Bobby Dobbs helped Tulsa to the Sun Bowl in 1942 and backed up Blanchard in 1945. Guard Joe Steffy played for Tennessee in 1944, when the Volunteers when unbeaten in the regular season again.

End Barney Poole played for Ole Miss and would return to Oxford to lead the Rebels to the 1947 SEC title. End Hank Foldberg played for Texas A&M, halfback Dean Sensanbaugher played for Ohio State, fullback Bob Summerhays would thrive at Utah, etc.
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Another story

But it was chiefly in the area of recruiting high school talent that the services had all the best of it. There was no such thing as a college deferment from the service, unless it was enrollment in a military program at a university—one of the V-12 or preflight plans. And so the stories of midnight visitations by recruiters—military recruiters—were legend. One example of this used to be offered by the late Hooks Mylin in the form of an afterdinner talk. Mylin was the coach at Lafayette, in Easton, Pa., in the peacetime season of 1940 and he had his eye on a hot prospect, a senior at the local high school. "Naturally, everybody wanted him to go to Lafayette," Mylin recounted, "but every time a train stopped in town a different coach got off. Frank Thomas of Alabama would arrive on one train, Elmer Layden of Notre Dame on the next. Notre Dame had the inside track because the boy was Catholic."

Undaunted, Mylin called a meeting with the parish priest and the university administration, and it was agreed that to keep the prospect Lafayette would put in a special course of Catholic instruction. The season ended, and Mylin, confident and content, left for a vacation. Shortly afterward he received a frantic call from Easton. Princeton had been to town, had painted the church and taken the boy. They enrolled him in the Peddie School at Hightstown, N.J. for additional finishing, and he was there when the bombs fell on Pearl Harbor. The night afterward there was a rap on the lad's dormitory door. There stood two uniformed emissaries. "Do you want to be drafted or do you want to play for Army?" they inquired. The boy decided to go to West Point.
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When Football Went to War

If that's not bending rules, then I'd say that kidnapping and "protective custody" have a lot in common - just depends on how "authority" is applied.
 
#167
#167
AM64 said:
There are many articles about how the military academies were so dominant in football during WW2. This one is pretty good

What made 1945 Army the greatest college football team of all time - SBNation.com

Since there were no draft deferments, the only safe place to play college sport was at the military academies, and the transfer rules were basically non existent. "Play for us" or go to war kind of thing.




Another story



When Football Went to War

If that's not bending rules, then I'd say that kidnapping and "protective custody" have a lot in common - just depends on how "authority" is applied.
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1. That's not "bending rules," it's living within the rules.

2. If it were so hard to get college age males into school, how did 40-50 different major colleges, like Ohio State, USC, Michigan, Oklahoma, Texas, North Carolina, Georgia, LSU, and on and on, field teams?

3. If those wartime rules were the Big Army Advantage, how did Army start having really good teams two decades BEFORE World War II, and then continue to have one of the very best teams in the country for another decade and a half AFTER the war ended?

Fact is, a whole lot of schools fielded football teams. All those teams had males aged 18-25 on them. Army and Navy had no monopoly on talent. It's more like this: the best lads signed up for Army and Navy because they were patriotic as well as talented.

That--and a coach as good in his time as, Urban Meyer or Dabo Swinney are today--are how Army remained dominant from the 1920s to the 1950s.
 
#169
#169
AM64 said:
Experience would say that Dickey, Fulmer, and Neyland were better HCs (first timers) than Majors, Kiffin, Dooley, and Jones. Battle was a bust, but a lot better AD (at Bama) than Hamilton, Hart, and Currie (professional ADs).
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Majors walked into a completely different situation than Fulmer so I'm not sure how you can make that assertion. Everyone except Battle and Fulmer stepped into a less than ideal situation as to talent and depth so it's hard to make an accurate assessment
 
#170
#170
99gator said:
Ok, we’ll if everyone gets it, I’m sure I won’t be seeing season prediction threads with people chalking up wins against teams like Missouri because Missouri sucks.

I’m sure people will have learned to not take a game for granted and ignore daj’s recruiting ranking statistical analysis that says Tennessee should win 9 games
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Get lost Gator, you are a real drag and VN is not digging you in the least.
 
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#173
#173
114VOL said:
Majors walked into a completely different situation than Fulmer so I'm not sure how you can make that assertion. Everyone except Battle and Fulmer stepped into a less than ideal situation as to talent and depth so it's hard to make an accurate assessment
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No question that Fulmer inherited a sound team and Majors didn't, but today (and without the connection) Majors would have been fired before he got to success. The thing that infuriated me about Majors was the good year followed by the off year thing. If you are good then the record shouldn't look like a yo-yo. If you were around, you should be able to remember the even year odd year expectations.
 
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#174
#174
Majors won a Natty. They would have fired him then, too, but when you fire a coach in his prime who's won a natty, who do you replace him with? Knute Rockne is dead.

Majors was not a top-tier coach, but if he wasn't, then it showed that nobody knew how to identify one.
 
#175
#175
AM64 said:
No question that Fulmer inherited a sound team and Majors didn't, but today (and without the connection) Majors would have been fired before he got to success. The thing that infuriated me about Majors was the good year followed by the off year thing. If you are good then the record shouldn't look like a yo-yo. If you were around, you should be able to remember the even year odd year expectations.
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I remember those days. UT would lose a game they had no business losing then follow it up with a great win.
 
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