Is the 3 permanent teams argument overblown?

#26
#26
You're only looking a recent history.
I don't think he's even doing that . . . if he was looking at recent history, he'd know that Kentucky and Florida have won the exact same number of games the past 5 years. He keeps telling people they're scared of competition when it's him who wants to be threatened by a program that has basically just been a logo the past 15 years.
 
#27
#27
Have not thought it all the way thru, but maybe for 3 games you create a stratified 3 tier grouping based on POWER based on final national ranking for the last 20 or 30 years and each teams 3 need to end up 1 from each group AFTER starting with a no- brainer, AL AU. GA FL UM MSU. TX TAM. LSU ARK. other NAMED GAMES ETC. 16 not being divisible by 3 is problematic but not impassable. Maybe 6 team middle group make sense.

Would Van and Ky both being in same group eliminate them both on our schedule? For sure cannot have 2 1’s or 3’s. Maybe added ranking points 1-16 for 3 teams have to fit in a range.

First team in your grouping has to be mutually agreeable then math takes over, geography and history be damned. For us if we accept Vandy as our natural, we are at risk for other group selections and have to have higher group 1 and 2 teams to offset that. GA and FL would get lower 2’s and 3’s if both in group 1.

Imperfect but most equitable the goal. But the schedulers have limitations. Set the first games and then let AI take the lead. Would at least limit back room questions.
 
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#28
#28
Have not thought it all the way thru, but maybe for 3 games you create a stratified 3 tier grouping based on POWER based on final national ranking for the last 20 or 30 years and each teams 3 need to end up 1 from each group AFTER starting with a no- brainer, AL AU. GA FL UM MSU. TX TAM. LSU ARK. other NAMED GAMES ETC. 16 not being divisible by 3 is problematic but not impassable. Maybe 6 team middle group make sense.

Would Van and Ky both being in same group eliminate them both on our schedule? For sure cannot have 2 1’s or 3’s. Maybe added ranking points 1-16 for 3 teams have to fit in a range.

First team in your grouping has to be mutually agreeable then math takes over, geography and history be damned. For us if we accept Vandy as our natural, we are at risk for other group selections and have to have higher group 1 and 2 teams to offset that. GA and FL would get lower 2’s and 3’s if both in group 1.

Imperfect but most equitable the goal. But the schedulers have limitations. Set the first games and then let AI take the lead. Would at least limit back room questions.
Equitable. 12 or 13 will be happy. At least one will be incensed.
 
#29
#29
Only folks with loser mentalities are scared of competition. I think the top programs should play the other top programs they've historically had rivalries with. So this is how the 3 permanent opponents should go:

Tennessee - Alabama, Florida, Georgia
Florida - Georgia, Tennessee, LSU
Georgia - Florida, Auburn, Tennessee
Alabama - Auburn, Tennessee, LSU
Auburn - Alabama, Georgia, LSU
LSU - Florida, Alabama, Auburn

Next up the old southwest conference foes should be playing each other:

Texas - Oklahoma, A&M, Arkansas
Oklahoma - Texas, A&M, Arkansas
A&M - Texas, Oklahoma, Arkansas
Arkansas - Texas, Oklahoma, A&M

And finally the historic scrubs can go at it.
If Tennessee doesn’t get Alabama and Florida for permanent games I will be extremely disappointed. I want Georgia as well, but will understand if they go with Vandy.
 
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#32
#32
You guys are so scared of competition. How can a team that almost never has a chance to beat us a rival?
My understanding is that we are supposed to consider proximity as well as 3 different tiers of programs. Rivalries are supposed to stay. So that’s the Georgia, Bama and FL games. Georgia and Bama are both tier 1, so one has to go. The Bama game has more tradition and meaning to both programs, so it gets the nod. FL the most meaningful tier 2 game to both programs. It stays. Vandy annd KY are bottom tier,. There’s also a lot of history behind both games. While AI says we have played KY more than any other program at 120 games since 1983 it also thinks that game is the third Saturday in October (AI is on my bad side right now as it crashed my environment last night), Vandy is a close second, also in-state and a little closer. I think one could argue KY or Vandy, but you have to pick one and who is Vandy going to play as their Tier 1 if it’s not Tennessee?

 
#33
#33
My understanding is that we are supposed to consider proximity as well as 3 different tiers of programs. Rivalries are supposed to stay. So that’s the Georgia, Bama and FL games. Georgia and Bama are both tier 1, so one has to go. The Bama game has more tradition and meaning to both programs, so it gets the nod. FL the most meaningful tier 2 game to both programs. It stays. Vandy annd KY are bottom tier,. There’s also a lot of history behind both games. While AI says we have played KY more than any other program at 120 games since 1983 it also thinks that game is the third Saturday in October (AI is on my bad side right now as it crashed my environment last night), Vandy is a close second, also in-state and a little closer. I think one could argue KY or Vandy, but you have to pick one and who is Vandy going to play as their Tier 1 if it’s not Tennessee?


I don't care what silly metrics the clowns at the SEC office are gonna use. My argument is about who we should want to be our 3 permanent rivals. And my choice is Alabama, Georgia, and Florida. I could care less about a tier system.
 
#34
#34
I don't care what silly metrics the clowns at the SEC office are gonna use. My argument is about who we should want to be our 3 permanent rivals. And my choice is Alabama, Georgia, and Florida. I could care less about a tier system.

Every SEC East should WANT Georgia and Alabama based on your standard, but the math isn’t there. So, Tennessee should get what it wans, but not the other teams?

 
#35
#35
After spending several hours on this, I have found not only is it difficult to come up with such a thing for 16 teams, it is extremely difficult to maintain proximity, rivalries and fairness. This is what I have thus far, and pretty sure SC, Arkansas, Kentucky and Texas win on this one. Check the other options. There's always going to be someone with a more difficult or easier schedule than others. I vote that goes to the lesser teams.

With TN keeping FL and Bama getting LSU which is being debated apparently:
  • Texas — A&M, Missouri, Oklahoma
  • A&M — Missouri, Oklahoma, Texas
  • Oklahoma — A&M, Arkansas, Texas
  • Missouri — A&M, Kentucky, Texas
  • Kentucky — Missouri, SC, Vandy
  • Vandy — Kentucky, SC, Tennessee
  • Tennessee — Bama, Florida, Vandy
  • Bama — Auburn, LSU, Tennessee
  • LSU — Arkansas, Bama, Ole Miss
  • Arkansas — LSU, Miss St., Oklhoma
  • Ole Miss — Georgia, LSU, SC
  • Florida — Auburn, Georgia, Tennessee
  • Auburn — Bama, Florida, Miss St.
  • Miss St. — Arkansas, Auburn, Georgia
  • SC — Kentucky, Ole Miss, Vandy
  • Georgia — Florida, Miss St., Ole Miss
Without those games:
  • Texas — A&M, Missouri, Oklahoma
  • A&M — Missouri, Oklahoma, Texas
  • Oklahoma — A&M, Arkansas, Texas
  • Missouri — A&M, Kentucky, Texas
  • Kentucky — Missouri, SC, Vandy
  • Vandy — Kentucky, SC, Tennessee
  • Tennessee — Bama, Vandy, Georgia
  • Bama — Auburn, Tennessee, Ole Miss
  • LSU — Arkansas, Ole Miss, Florida
  • Arkansas — LSU, Miss St., Oklahoma
  • Ole Miss — LSU, SC, Bama
  • Florida — Auburn, Georgia, LSU
  • Auburn — Bama, Florida, Miss St.
  • Miss St. — Arkansas, Auburn, Georgia
  • SC — Kentucky, Ole Miss, Vandy
  • Georgia — Florida, Miss St., Tennessee
Option 3

  • Texas — A&M, Missouri, Oklahoma
  • A&M — Missouri, Oklahoma, Texas
  • Oklahoma — A&M, Arkansas, Texas
  • Missouri — A&M, Kentucky, Texas
  • Kentucky — Missouri, SC, Tennessee
  • Vandy — SC, Tennessee, Bama
  • TennesseeBama, Vandy, Kentucky
  • Bama — Auburn, Tennessee, Vandy
  • LSU — Arkansas, Ole Miss, Florida
  • Arkansas — LSU, Miss St., Oklahoma
  • Ole Miss — LSU, SC, Georgia
  • Florida — Auburn, Georgia, LSU
  • Auburn — Bama, Florida, Miss St.
  • Miss St. — Arkansas, Auburn, Georgia
  • SC — Kentucky, Ole Miss, Vandy
  • Georgia — Florida, Miss St., Ole Miss

Georgia/Auburn have to be rivals. It's the oldest in the south.
 
#36
#36
There's concern some teams will get shafted with their permanent 3 teams in the 9 game schedule. I dont see it being a big deal. Am I wrong?
So for example, the biggest discussion, Bama could get Tenn/Auburn/LSU. "Should we give Bama LSU?"
I think you set permanents how you want/makes sense and just start with those toughest draws. All you have to do is make sure the rest of the schedule is balanced. If Bama is playing 3 of the better teams, that means the remaining 6 games are going to be against more likely lesser opponents. Simply dont stack them and make one of the 2 years lopsided. I know scheduling isn't that easy, but I dont see the big deal.
What if Tenn gets the easier Bama/Vandy/UK, then they also draw Texas/ Georgia/Florida/Oklahoma/LSU/Auburn the same year? Just showing an extreme example to show that turns out to be a brutal, lopsided schedule.
Am I wrong and the concerns are real?
Overblown, yes, agreed. Absolutely. The difference is actually pretty slight, even at the extreme ends of the possibilities.

Here, gotta use some math to explain.

Assume all 15 other teams in the league are spread evenly in difficulty, from #1 at the top to #15 (Vandy, lol) at the bottom. Relative difficulty across the conference is really not linear like that, it's actually more clumpy into tiers, but this works well enough as an approximation.

Now compare Team A, with the easiest possible draw of permanent foes, to Team B with the hardest combination.

Team A plays 13, 14, and 15 every year. They also play 1, 3, 5, 8, 10, 12 in even years,* and 2, 4, 6, 7, 9, 11 in odd years. If you add all those strengths up and divide by the 18 league games over the two years, you get an average difficulty of 9.

Team B plays 1, 2, and 3 every year, and then 4, 6, 8, 11, 13, 15 in even years, followed by 1, 2, 3, and then 5, 7, 9, 10, 12, 14 in odd years. Add and divide by 18, and their average opponent difficulty turns out to be a 7.

So it's a bit like playing the 7th hardest team versus the 9th hardest, but for the entire year.

There's no great shakes between #7 and #9. Right now, that would be Oklahoma (SEC #7) and Ole Miss (SEC #9), according to the AP rankings. Or the difference between Florida (SEC #7) and A&M (SEC #9), per the Coaches poll.

I doubt we could even get the majority of folks on this board to agree which of those is the tougher draw. They're pretty close to equal.

And on top of all that, in reality no one will get 1, 2, 3 -or- 13, 14, 15. It will all be more muddled up than that.

So yah, you're right. Who a team gets as permanent opponents isn't going to yield much of a competitive advantage or disadvantage, at all. It's a bit of a tempest in a teapot.

Go Vols!



* that part is simpler than it may initially appear. I just spread the opponents out so that the even and odd years are roughly equally hard, while ensuring Teams A and B each play all 15 other teams at least once every 2 years.
 
#37
#37
Georgia/Auburn have to be rivals. It's the oldest in the south.
They too would have to pick between Bama and Georgia. No way they get both. My belief is the Iron Bowl sticks. That also allows for Bama to pick up a quality team.
 
#40
#40
Why couldn't they have both? I mean Auburn having both Bama and UGa as permanent rivals. Why not?
Because of parity. The whole of the 3 permanent teams is to be somewhat equal to that of the others’. One tier 1, one tier 2, one tier 3.

Differentiating tier 1 between tier 2 is tough, but Bama and Georgia are fairly easy to say they belong in tier 1.

I would put Texas, Georgia, Bama, Tennessee, Ole Miss in tier 1 most likely.

Tier 2 is Missouri, A&M, SC, LSU, FL, OK

Tier 3 is Arkansas, Miss St, KY, Vanderbilt, Auburn

Thing I don’t like about it is the permanent aspect to this entire thing. The tier structure is relative and based on recency.

Ole Miss and TN were both tier 3 based on recency just 5-6 years ago, whereas LSU was tier 1.

I really think the SEC screwed up when they got rid of conferences. All they had to do was slide Texas, OK and Missouri into the West while moving Bama and Auburn to the East.

First of all, all you have to do is look at a map and see how that makes sense. Plus you maintain the 3rd Sat, the Iron Bowl, and the GA vs Auburn rivals you mentioned. The move of Missouri to the West not just makes sense geographically, they apparently have grown a bit of a spat with Arkansas. The Egg bowl stays, Oklahoma vs Texas and Texas A&M rival is renewed. Those boys continue what they all once were in the Big 12.

This would mean big programs and heavy hitters like GA, Bama, TN, FL with an occasionally successful SC are on one side with big programs and heavy hitters like TX, LSU, Ole Miss, OK and an occasionally successful Missouri or A&M would be nicely divided.

Obviously I am including TN because of their program significance and their most recent 10+ win seasons.

I am thinking the bottom tier might be a little better in the West.

A&M and Missouri are better than most of the teams in the would be East once you get past SC.

Auburn, KY, and even Vandy are similar to Arkansas as of late.

I think Mississippi St is the worst of the bunch however.

Did I leave anyone out?

It seems the SEC has a way of complicating things sometimes and their divisions were the one thing that made sense over other conferences, but we tried to do what the Big 10 is doing, we lost something that was special when we lost divisions, and now we are facing more challenges to make sense of all these changes.

And since we are facing no some changes that don’t make sense, I think it’s more than plausible to consider returning to the way things were. Otherwise, the SEC will continue to lose its personality, get caught up in the succubus and lose its influence.

Holding true to what we were is how we became so strong, and the best conference in all of College Football.
 
#42
#42
Because of parity. The whole of the 3 permanent teams is to be somewhat equal to that of the others’. One tier 1, one tier 2, one tier 3.

Differentiating tier 1 between tier 2 is tough, but Bama and Georgia are fairly easy to say they belong in tier 1.

I would put Texas, Georgia, Bama, Tennessee, Ole Miss in tier 1 most likely.

Tier 2 is Missouri, A&M, SC, LSU, FL, OK

Tier 3 is Arkansas, Miss St, KY, Vanderbilt, Auburn

Thing I don’t like about it is the permanent aspect to this entire thing. The tier structure is relative and based on recency.

Ole Miss and TN were both tier 3 based on recency just 5-6 years ago, whereas LSU was tier 1.

I really think the SEC screwed up when they got rid of conferences. All they had to do was slide Texas, OK and Missouri into the West while moving Bama and Auburn to the East.

First of all, all you have to do is look at a map and see how that makes sense. Plus you maintain the 3rd Sat, the Iron Bowl, and the GA vs Auburn rivals you mentioned. The move of Missouri to the West not just makes sense geographically, they apparently have grown a bit of a spat with Arkansas. The Egg bowl stays, Oklahoma vs Texas and Texas A&M rival is renewed. Those boys continue what they all once were in the Big 12.

This would mean big programs and heavy hitters like GA, Bama, TN, FL with an occasionally successful SC are on one side with big programs and heavy hitters like TX, LSU, Ole Miss, OK and an occasionally successful Missouri or A&M would be nicely divided.

Obviously I am including TN because of their program significance and their most recent 10+ win seasons.

I am thinking the bottom tier might be a little better in the West.

A&M and Missouri are better than most of the teams in the would be East once you get past SC.

Auburn, KY, and even Vandy are similar to Arkansas as of late.

I think Mississippi St is the worst of the bunch however.

Did I leave anyone out?

It seems the SEC has a way of complicating things sometimes and their divisions were the one thing that made sense over other conferences, but we tried to do what the Big 10 is doing, we lost something that was special when we lost divisions, and now we are facing more challenges to make sense of all these changes.

And since we are facing no some changes that don’t make sense, I think it’s more than plausible to consider returning to the way things were. Otherwise, the SEC will continue to lose its personality, get caught up in the succubus and lose its influence.

Holding true to what we were is how we became so strong, and the best conference in all of College Football.
Okay, I getcha.

But who's to say Bama isn't Tier 2 over most of the next 10 years? I mean, they've already fallen a notch or two. They're no longer the top team in the SEC. Not even one of the top 2, according to every poll I've seen both last year and this upcoming season.

So what if they also fall behind LSU, and Tennessee, and even one or two others, maybe a resurgent Florida or A&M? Are they not then a tier 2 team?

This is why it's so difficult for the SEC front office to "ensure equality of schedule difficulty." Things constantly change.

Maybe in the next three years, the two toughest teams in the conference turn out to be Tennessee and Oklahoma. That'd be cool, and isn't beyond the realm of reasonable possibility What does that do to any carefully-orchestrated tiering of schedules?

And even beyond that, it just doesn't make that much difference. I showed that earlier today mathematically here somewhere in one of these threads on the topic.

*shrug* Let Auburn have Bama and Georgia. Tradition is a big part of college football, and should remain so.

Go Vols!
 
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#43
#43
I don't care what silly metrics the clowns at the SEC office are gonna use. My argument is about who we should want to be our 3 permanent rivals. And my choice is Alabama, Georgia, and Florida. I could care less about a tier system.

If you want us to play the best every year, why is Florida one of the options? Shouldn't it be Texas or LSU, more successful programs the last few years over Florida? Or Oklahoma?
 
#45
#45
I don't care what silly metrics the clowns at the SEC office are gonna use. My argument is about who we should want to be our 3 permanent rivals. And my choice is Alabama, Georgia, and Florida. I could care less about a tier system.
Show me the 15 comparable schedules for the rest of the conference. This should be good!
 
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#48
#48
If you want us to play the best every year, why is Florida one of the options? Shouldn't it be Texas or LSU, more successful programs the last few years over Florida? Or Oklahoma?

I want us to play our best RIVALS. We owe Florida a yearly butt whopping after what has happened the last 20 years.
 
#49
#49
He clearly has a loser mentality and wants to hide behind history.

No. I prefer revenge. If we had a 17-3 record against Florida the last 20 games I wouldn't care if we had them on the schedule or not. However, we don't. Which means we owe them.

You guys want to run away from the teams that have owned us the last 20 years. I want us to repay that favor. The loser mentality is to run away from the bully rather than hitting them back.
 
#50
#50
Show me the 15 comparable schedules for the rest of the conference. This should be good!

Already posted it earlier in this thread:

Only folks with loser mentalities are scared of competition. I think the top programs should play the other top programs they've historically had rivalries with. So this is how the 3 permanent opponents should go:

Tennessee - Alabama, Florida, Georgia
Florida - Georgia, Tennessee, LSU
Georgia - Florida, Auburn, Tennessee
Alabama - Auburn, Tennessee, LSU
Auburn - Alabama, Georgia, LSU
LSU - Florida, Alabama, Auburn

Next up the old southwest conference foes should be playing each other:

Texas - Oklahoma, A&M, Arkansas
Oklahoma - Texas, A&M, Arkansas
A&M - Texas, Oklahoma, Arkansas
Arkansas - Texas, Oklahoma, A&M

And finally the historic scrubs can go at it.
 
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