Is it time for revolution?

#333
#333
Vol8188 said:
Idk what QED stands for. But why would it not work today?
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QED, quod erat demonstratum, translates as, "That which was to be demonstrated" and implies it has been demonstrated. Usually, one finds QED at the bottom of rigid proofs.

As for my comment, I'll simply join the masses and pound the table with the unquestionable refrain of, "Because that was then and this is now".

Duh.
 
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#334
#334
therealUT said:
QED, quod erat demonstratum, translates as, "That which was to be demonstrated" and implies it has been demonstrated. Usually, one finds QED at the bottom of rigid proofs.

As for my comment, I'll simply join the masses and pound the table with the unquestionable refrain of, "Because that was then and this is now".

Duh.
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Thank you
 
#335
#335
Vol8188 said:
Thank you
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You're welcome. Unfortunately, "common sense" says that time is relevant to all arguments. But, time is merely a measure of change. Thus, in referring to time one ought to explain the relevant changes in the situation. Sure, there exists an indefinite amount of change from one moment to the next, but that does not entail that when I fired up the stove to warm my kettle yesterday morning, this morning when I do the same, my kettle won't warm.
 
#337
#337
Danl said:
Pick a time in history that you've speculated about. Now really think about how your day to day life would be there and then. What you would have to do just to survive and provide for a family? Think about the available science and medicine you would have access to. Think about the housing and public utilities available to you. Think about what dangers you and your family might face just living your life.

Now, think about the choices and opportunities you have today vs then.
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Is this relevant at all, seriously? Where did I say abandon science, public utilities, and modern medicine?
 
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#338
#338
I knew y'all would try to use age to write me off but my generation has a strong distrust for federal government, and really government in general. If change is gonna happen it's going to start with the younger generation, majority of the older guys are stubbornly stuck in their ways, with a majority of them that have the mentality of only voting a certain way regardless of the stance of their party of allegiance.
 
#339
#339
OrangeWayOfLife said:
I knew y'all would try to use age to write me off but my generation has a strong distrust for federal government, and really government in general. If change is gonna happen it's going to start with the younger generation, majority of the older guys are stubbornly stuck in their ways, with a majority of them that have the mentality of only voting a certain way regardless of the stance of their party of allegiance.
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"your generation" helped give Obama 8yrs in office. The last revolution in this country was started by older men because they had more to lose than the younger ones
 
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#340
#340
OrangeWayOfLife said:
I knew y'all would try to use age to write me off but my generation has a strong distrust for federal government, and really government in general. If change is gonna happen it's going to start with the younger generation, majority of the older guys are stubbornly stuck in their ways, with a majority of them that have the mentality of only voting a certain way regardless of the stance of their party of allegiance.
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I don't write off your ideas because of your age. I write off your assessment of the pussification of America because of your age.

Don't worry, I thought America was filled with ******* when I was 24, as well. Of course, it was quite easy for me to non-reflectively see others as *******, since I had been through Ranger School by that time and was training and preparing to go to war.

I'm sure you're in a similar situation, right? The future may hold for you, as it did for me, a new perspective in which to view your fellow citizens and fellow man.
 
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#341
#341
utvolpj said:
"your generation" helped give Obama 8yrs in office. The last revolution in this country was started by older men because they have more to lose than the younger ones
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The Obama election brought out lots of embiciles of all ages who usually don't vote and know nothing of what is going on in their country so they could vote for a black president. Not racist, only speaking the truth. Add that on top of the democrat only voters and the unions who are afraid they'll lose out with a republican president, you have the Obama disaster.
 
#342
#342
therealUT said:
I don't write off your ideas because of your age. I write off your assessment of the pussification of America because of your age.

Don't worry, I thought America was filled with ******* when I was 24, as well. Of course, it was quite easy for me to non-reflectively see others as *******, since I had been through Ranger School by that time and was training and preparing to go to war.

I'm sure you're in a similar situation, right? The future may hold for you, as it did for me, a new perspective in which to view your fellow citizens and fellow man.
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Might have been a broad assessment and I do tend to let irratation get to me. However, was the PC train running like it is today then, we're there just as many people who would rather take handouts over manual labor?
 
#343
#343
OrangeWayOfLife said:
Might have been a broad assessment and I do tend to let irratation get to me. However, was the PC train running like it is today then, we're there just as many people who would rather take handouts over manual labor?
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The political correctness train has always been running with regard to individuals that are seen as persons and not savages or beasts, across the span of written history.

There have always been persons that would willingly take benefits they have not worked for nor merited throughout written history.

One thing you will find when you read actual history, not merely historical works written today, but actual primary source documents, is that the lament of the current generation and the glorification of days of old is a consistent theme. A consistent theme throughout the history of the world is a view of the nostalgic past as a golden era; the present as corrupt and tending toward the absolute desecration of society and civilization.

However, when you actually take a deep look into the real, everyday freedoms and opportunities that individuals have, when you look at their spending power, when you look at how reasonable it is for them to fear for their safety, you find an increasing saw-tooth. That is, you find a line that, while it looks jagged from up close, consistently slopes upward in terms of real quality of life.

One might reasonably lament the current situation when compared to an ideal situation (I do this constantly); however, one may not be informed and reasonably lament the current situation when compared to the past.
 
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#344
#344
therealUT said:
The political correctness train has always been running with regard to individuals that are seen as persons and not savages or beasts, across the span of written history.

There have always been persons that would willingly take benefits they have not worked for nor merited throughout written history.

One thing you will find when you read actual history, not merely historical works written today, but actual primary source documents, is that the lament of the current generation and the glorification of days of old is a consistent theme. A consistent theme throughout the history of the world is a view of the nostalgic past as a golden era; the present as corrupt and tending toward the absolute desecration of society and civilization.

However, when you actually take a deep look into the real, everyday freedoms and opportunities that individuals have, when you look at their spending power, when you look at how reasonable it is for them to fear for their safety, you find an increasing saw-tooth. That is, you find a line that, while it looks jagged from up close, consistently slopes upward in terms of real quality of life.

One might reasonably lament the current situation when compared to an ideal situation (I do this constantly); however, one may not be informed and reasonably lament the current situation when compared to the past.
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Very well, not arguing with you at all but my viewpoints have developed from talking to an older generation. I don't know anybody my age that can carry on an informative political discussion. It's a constant theme with nearly everybody I've talked to agrees that things have gotten out of hand here. At no point through our history since the police state in Boston when England granted power to all soldiers to search for non taxed contraband without warrants, have we had such an intrusion in to our personal lives with growing big brother movement by all of these federal agencies.
 
#345
#345
therealUT said:
Moving to cash crops will reduce the price one can get from said cash crop and increase the price one can get from staples. The market takes care of itself.
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It was a joke. And for the market to "take care of itself", you have to remove ALL .gov meddling. Good luck with that.
 
#347
#347
Vol8188 said:
Not true. Only some will be taxed directly, but everyone will pay the taxes.
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No they don't, because renters cannot take credit for those taxes on their 1040s. And if you don't have a positive bottom line on your 1040, you shouldn't be allowed to vote either.
 
#348
#348
OrangeWayOfLife said:
Very well, not arguing with you at all but my viewpoints have developed from talking to an older generation. I don't know anybody my age that can carry on an informative political discussion.
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Do you think that in the past a majority of Americans, or even a relatively decent percentage of the population, could carry on an "informative political discussion"? I do not get this impression from my own historical studies.

OrangeWayOfLife said:
It's a constant theme with nearly everybody I've talked to agrees that things have gotten out of hand here. At no point through our history since the police state in Boston when England granted power to all soldiers to search for non taxed contraband without warrants, have we had such an intrusion in to our personal lives with growing big brother movement by all of these federal agencies.
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I think this must be qualified. Certainly, one cannot say that, "At no point in US history, since the police state in Boston..., have all individuals legally residing in the US had such an intrusion into their personal lives..."

That is obviously false. One might qualify it by asserting that this only applies to white males over the course of US history or, even more probable, land-owning white males. However, even then, I would question the accuracy of that statement since any rights to privacy were widely disregarded by the J. Edgar Hoover FBI, were widely disregarded under McCarthyism, were widely disregarded by Lincoln's administration, etc. Basically, you have to make a pretty strong argument and you do not get that "fact" for free.

Also, I would question the ubiquitousness of the unwarranted search and seizure today and in the 1770s in New England. Certainly, I won't argue against the fact that the government has explicit legislative power today to search through much more of our possessions without either our consent or a warrant. However, I would say that in terms of "seizing" any of this, it is extremely rare. The government data-mines almost everything, but nobody is reading even a fraction of what is mined. On top of that, the government conducts some warrantless searches, but these do not even affect 1% of the US population. That is not saying that we ought to agree with these practices and legislative pronouncements, but certainly the sky is not falling and we are not losing the vast majority of our everyday liberties (on balance, we might not have lost any).

Now, to question the ubiquitousness of the invasion of privacy and homes in the 1770s in New England. It was not ubiquitous. Very few homes were searched; very few homes were used to quarter soldiers. Further, most of the places that were searched, were places that we can look back on and declare, "Those individuals were active members of seditious groups". While the authorities did not have warrants, it's not hard to understand that the probable cause was there and that warrants would have been gotten to search those areas and houses at any point in US history. The reason the Brits did not go that route (one that was demanded by English Common Law), was because they did not trust the local colonial governments; i.e., they believed, and again, rightly so, that the individuals they would have had to appeal to for warrants were themselves, at the very least, sympathetic to the seditious individuals and groups.

Now, maybe your argument now is less legal and more moral: the seditious groups were on the morally justified side, while the Brits were on the morally unjustified side. That has never been clear to me. The rebels were upset with two major pieces of legislation that resulted in higher taxes for those living in the colonies than those living on the main British island, and those living in the colonies lacked representation. Yet, the taxes were still incredibly low, and, further, both of those taxes were repealed prior to the rebels firing the first shot. Basically, while they did not have formal representation (yet), their voices were still heard and taken into consideration.

A plausible narrative is as follows: Virginia and the southern colonies could not continue their way of life without slaves; Boston could not continue its way of life without the slave-trade; New York's economy and way of life barely relied on the slave-trade. The small taxes and the lack of representation re: these small tax issues was not the reason that individuals in Boston and the south risked their lives and took lives. Britain was in the midst of abolishing both slavery and the slave-trade. There were a great deal of influential abolitionists in Britain in the 1770s, and many could foresee that Britain would absolutely prohibit slave activity. Without representation, the folks living in Boston and the south risked seeing their entire way of life vanish; those in New York faced no such risk. Thus, those in Boston and the south take up the charge, fight, and separate from the mother country, while those in New York remain loyalists until the dying days of the revolution.

This is a narrative nobody will find in American history classes in America, because, if it is the correct narrative, then we might have to question the "greatness" of our Founding Fathers and of the glorious revolution. However, this is a narrative you will find in Great Britain.

One thing is for certain, I cannot even hope to understand why someone would fight and die in response to two pithy tax laws that were later repealed. I can understand why someone would fight and die to retain their way of life. Thus, the latter narrative is one I find much more plausible and compelling.
 
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#349
#349
SpaceCoastVol said:
It was a joke. And for the market to "take care of itself", you have to remove ALL .gov meddling. Good luck with that.
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Negative, you must retain a certain amount of government meddling, as even Smith, Ricardo, Von Mises, Hayek, and Milton Friedman would assert. The government must be involved to prevent and punish collusion and real monopoly.
 
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#350
#350
OrangeWayOfLife said:
Very well, not arguing with you at all but my viewpoints have developed from talking to an older generation. I don't know anybody my age that can carry on an informative political discussion. It's a constant theme with nearly everybody I've talked to agrees that things have gotten out of hand here. At no point through our history since the police state in Boston when England granted power to all soldiers to search for non taxed contraband without warrants, have we had such an intrusion in to our personal lives with growing big brother movement by all of these federal agencies.
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Ever heard of slavery? Suspension of habeas corpus? Japanese internment campus? Red scare?
 
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