is it still acceptable to say "look what heupel inherited"

[Rickyvol77]

exactly. IMO success is not an end goal it's a process. you have to be noticably better every year. not winning a title but better than the previous year, which if you stick to that goal you will inevitably win a title.

heupel has done so much but he still has failed to do the things that make you go from good to elite. here are those things in exact order:

1. Win really big road games. And for clarification, at the University of Tennessee really big road games are as follows: Bama, Georgia, Florida
2. Appear in the SECCG
3. Make it to and win a CFP game
4. Overtake Bama and Georgia as the elite program of the SEC

Heupel has done everything else but he absolutely cannot stop there. he has to continue to get better and we can no longer use the excuse that he is at a disadvantage to other SEC programs.

There are other reasons besides just coaching mistakes (which also count) here.

1. He has won big road games, but surely not enough, I agree...however Bama and UGA have like 4 combined home losses in the last decade so it's not like rolling into Lexington and coming away with a loss...yes he needs to do better here
2. he would've been in the SEC title game in 2022 under current format...in the expanded format itll be interested to see what happens when we don't play UGA every year to have to get there
3. again this WOULDVE happened under current format last year, we wouldve beaten SMU at Neyland and then had a shot against banged up UGA at neutral site, but yes Ohio St was a buzzsaw to every team last season in playoffs...also in 2022 would've made the playoffs under current format and has a great shot to THIS season...
4. Easier said that done...yes it's the next step over all, but he has beaten Bama twice, so it's not like he's getting dominated every season by them

 

[Ned Ray McWorkher]

I seem to remember Saban walking into a mess in 2007 and he won a national title in year three.

The key for Saban and Kirby is that they both went to very top of the recruiting rankings after their first season, and more importantly, they both stayed there.

 

[IndianaVol]

If you were able to factor out the anamoly of year two (though some will point to guys like Cignetti and say you cant...Cig isn't playing big boy ball in a big boy league...let him have more than one top ten team on his schedule and ill show you multiple losses), then we are were I expected to be in Year 5.

Program is stable, trending in a positive direction, pulling in better talent at key positions, and in the right conversations.

All of that said, even with yet another new starting QB, year 6 needs to see a big step up in the product. The team must win the top 10 battles and not be in the talk of a borderline CFP squad....anything less and its time for Danny White to open the bank account.

 

[kckempf]

one of the favorite volnation excuses when evaluating the current coach is the ole "look what he inherited" and while it's true that heupel inherited a mess just like every coach in the country to comes into a situation where the previous coach was fired, but it is now the middle of year 5.

none of the players heupel inherited are still playing for this team.

he's had multiple recruiting cycles to bring in top rated players

he won 10 games in his second season so clearly it's not a real excuse for lack of success.

scholarship limits were increased by 20 so any limitations placed on UT due to sanctions (which were actually incredibly small limitations to begin with) are basically a non issue anymore.

so should this excuse be tolerated on this message board again? should people who use this excuse be reported and banned from this place?

Third largest scholarship penalty in history is "incredibly small limitations".

Just that phrase is enough to illustrate the bad faith framing of the question. There's nothing to be gained in this discussion.

 

[vavolfan6]

Yes, it is acceptable to acknowledge what Heupel inherited. He overcame the undwhelming level of talent and had to deal with recruiting sanctions for multiple years after arriving here. Every year he has exceeded or met raised expectations. It's important to remember this in moments where we lose to teams with more talented rosters.

 

[JMSqb11]

Third largest scholarship penalty in history is "incredibly small limitations".

Just that phrase is enough to illustrate the bad faith framing of the question. There's nothing to be gained in this discussion.

Yet Heupel did all the 2022 season with those penalties at a nuclear pace. Using the scholarship penalties as a crutch to cover up the current state of plateauing is idiotic.

Once Heupel showed he could coach and build a team around those penalties and restrictions, they became irrelevant.

 

[deatojl]

exactly. IMO success is not an end goal it's a process. you have to be noticably better every year. not winning a title but better than the previous year, which if you stick to that goal you will inevitably win a title.

heupel has done so much but he still has failed to do the things that make you go from good to elite. here are those things in exact order:

1. Win really big road games. And for clarification, at the University of Tennessee really big road games are as follows: Bama, Georgia, Florida
2. Appear in the SECCG
3. Make it to and win a CFP game
4. Overtake Bama and Georgia as the elite program of the SEC. it's disgusting that sh!tty programs like Ole Miss and TAMU are putting more pressure on Georgia and Bama that UT is, it's just gross and a very bad look.

Heupel has done everything else but he absolutely cannot stop there. he has to continue to get better and we can no longer use the excuse that he is at a disadvantage to other SEC programs.

Well, no coach in the history of college football has been noticeably better every year they coached.
Road wins over historically top 10 or so programs apparently aren't considered big at Tennessee.
We made the playoffs, so we are halfway there.
Ole Miss is 0-4 against Bama and 1-2 against Georgia under Lane Kiffin and has not made a playoff appearance. TAMU has even played either Georgia or Bama under Elko, hasn't played Georgia at all in the five years Heupel has been here and is 1-2 against Bama since Heupel has been here. Heupel is also 1-0 against A&M and A&M has also not made a playoff appearance.

 

[UTFranklinVol]

Third largest scholarship penalty in history is "incredibly small limitations".

Just that phrase is enough to illustrate the bad faith framing of the question. There's nothing to be gained in this discussion.

that's your opinion of course. I stand by my words . tennessee got off incredibly light losing only a couple scholarships per year. had this happed in a previous era it would have been the death penalty. our scholarship reduction could have been easily handled by any good coach. and heupel actually did handle it. that's why it should never be accepted when a fan uses this to excuse.

 

[GBOx2]

Heupel is definitely still dealing with the penalties from the Pruitt era (NCAA) which go through the 2027 season. Here's where it was laid out in a previous thread.

Guys they still have a lot of restrictions to deal with even this year. It started in 2021 when Danny and Heupel got here. Read the small details "per year"

- penalty of $8M, meant to represent the financial equivalent of missing two postseasons.
-A legislated fine of $5,000 plus 3% of the entire football budget
-Five years of probation.
-Reduction of 28 football scholarships throughout the probationary period, with a minimum of two scholarships per year.
-Reduction of 36 football official visits during the probationary period, including at least four visits per year. Tennessee will prohibit official visits for a total of 10 regular-season home games, four of which must involve SEC opponents.
-Reduction of 40 weeks for football unofficial visits during the probationary period, with a minimum of six weeks per year. Tennessee will prohibit unofficial visits for 10 regular-season home games, including four against SEC opponents.
-A 28-week ban on recruiting communications during the probationary period, including at least three weeks per year. This includes one week each in December and January, and one week between March and June.
-reduction of 120 evaluation days throughout the probationary period.

It is honestly insane that we even sniff a top 10 class with the disadvantage they face

We're good friends with a DC for another P4 school and we have talked to him about how this would impact Tennessee. He's said that the reductions on the recruiting & evaluations for Tennessee are definitely tough. He said it would definitely change your recruiting strategy until the probation period was over. His main point was that reduction in visits, evaluations, and communication can't be saved with NIL if you don't get to make the relationship with that kid in the first place.

 

[kckempf]

that's your opinion of course. I stand by my words . tennessee got off incredibly light losing only a couple scholarships per year. had this happed in a previous era it would have been the death penalty. our scholarship reduction could have been easily handled by any good coach. and heupel actually did handle it. that's why it should never be accepted when a fan uses this to excuse.

It's not an opinion, the 3rd worst scholarship reduction in history is not some little blip you can ignore because it doesn't support your argument. You have to grapple with the scholarship reduction, the recruiting days reduction, the official visits reduction, the SEC total and yearly scholarship limit (which is why we couldn't both sign a big class and replace transfer departures this off-season). You could choose not to, at the risk of having no meaningful opinion, which might have been beyond your reach to begin with.

 

[Vol865]

The same people who said no praised Heupel for letting Nico walk. We knew this year would be a step back within reason. We've lost 2 games to more talented teams. Not saying some criticism isn't deserved, but it takes a while to build a roster, especially from what we had and how long we were bad. Let me know when we've lost 4 and I might take your disdain a little more serious.

 

[Heupel's Offseason Beard]

Heupel is definitely still dealing with the penalties from the Pruitt era (NCAA) which go through the 2027 season. Here's where it was laid out in a previous thread.

We're good friends with a DC for another P4 school and we have talked to him about how this would impact Tennessee. He's said that the reductions on the recruiting & evaluations for Tennessee are definitely tough. He said it would definitely change your recruiting strategy until the probation period was over. His main point was that reduction in visits, evaluations, and communication can't be saved with NIL if you don't get to make the relationship with that kid in the first place.

Thank you for bringing this to people's attention. It's about the relationships. People just want to believe that our coaches aren't trying for some reason. They act like it's not impressive to take a 3 win team who loses 38 players to the portal and turning them into an 11 win team in two years. Somehow they've convinced themselves that it just can't be Heupel. There MUST be something else happening to justify their hatred

 

[Hairy Vols]

All one has to do is question other programs and coaches in similar situations.

CLK at USC.

Shula at Bama.

Tubberville at Ole Miss. (kinda not the best example)

The guy at Ole Miss before CLK

I’m sure there are more examples. How would those programs fared had those coaches been kept.

Mike Shula was 10-23 at Bama
Kiffin went 7-6 then 3-2 the year he was fired. The team was getting worse under him.

All the coaches you named were losers. Heupel has a better record than them here. So these situations are not similar in the slightest.

The fact you said Shula shows bias. It shows? In your mind only, we are worse than we actually are.

 

[UTFranklinVol]

It's not an opinion, the 3rd worst scholarship reduction in history is not some little blip you can ignore because it doesn't support your argument. You have to grapple with the scholarship reduction, the recruiting days reduction, the official visits reduction, the SEC total and yearly scholarship limit (which is why we couldn't both sign a big class and replace transfer departures this off-season). You could choose not to, at the risk of having no meaningful opinion, which might have been beyond your reach to begin with.

it's an opinion that those things have a meaningful impact on the on field results with NIL and the portal. heupel has already achieved good recruiting results and I refute the notion that having 2 more scholarships and a couple more visits per year would have significantly altered the trajectory of this program. to think otherwise is to be willfully ignorant. are those things headwinds? sure. are they an excuse for our results, absolutely not. we won 10 games in heupel's 2nd season. that's all the proof you need to see that it's not a real issue just an annoyance.

 

[bpalmer28]

Heupel has proven that he can rebuild a program. That’s all the argument on what he inherited is good for. Now he has to prove he can win a national championship. I think he can but adjustments need to be made. Specifically, we need to simplify the offense when playing on the road. Too many procedural penalties.

 

[Rickyvol77]

All one has to do is question other programs and coaches in similar situations.

CLK at USC.

Shula at Bama.

Tubberville at Ole Miss. (kinda not the best example)

The guy at Ole Miss before CLK

I’m sure there are more examples. How would those programs fared had those coaches been kept.

None of these guys could hold Heupel's jock....none were even close to his record

 

[illvol]

Just curious for those saying we are mediocre, or that we have hit our ceiling, or whatever, and I mean this in all seriousness...who is your model coach? If you had all the resources in the world right now who would you go get right now and replace Heupel with?

 

[GBOx2]

it's an opinion that those things have a meaningful impact on the on field results with NIL and the portal. heupel has already achieved good recruiting results and I refute the notion that having 2 more scholarships and a couple more visits per year would have significantly altered the trajectory of this program. to think otherwise is to be willfully ignorant. are those things headwinds? sure. are they an excuse for our results, absolutely not. we won 10 games in heupel's 2nd season. that's all the proof you need to see that it's not a real issue just an annoyance.

We're good friends with a DC for another P4 school and we have talked to him about how this would impact Tennessee. He's said that the reductions on the recruiting & evaluations for Tennessee are definitely tough. He said it would definitely change your recruiting strategy until the probation period was over. His main point was that reduction in visits, evaluations, and communication can't be saved with NIL if you don't get to make the relationship with that kid in the first place.

I mentioned this earlier in the thread but here it is again. Our friend is still a DC & has played against TN during the probation. Yes...the penalties & reductions matter. That is not opinion. It's fact from someone who is in the arena and coaching for a living. He said it's just a cumulative issue of not being able to go after a few kids each class and not being able to build that depth.

TN has literally spent this entire decade (and will continue to do so until 2027!) dealing with the Pruitt debacle.

 

[UTFranklinVol]

Just curious for those saying we are mediocre, or that we have hit our ceiling, or whatever, and I mean this in all seriousness...who is your model coach? If you had all the resources in the world right now who would you go get right now and replace Heupel with?

my ideal coach is Josh Heupel with better coaching staff and better decision making, vision casting and killer instinct.

but if we are really going to play the game of "unlimited resources and suspend reality the I would put these coaches on the list:

Kirby Smart - wild success at a football program that is beneath the university of tennessee
Ryan Day - inherited a good program but has made his own name in not dropping off even one little bit.
Nick Saban (yes that's right Nick Saban)
Curt Cignetti (yes old but that guy did more good with less talent than Tennessee on its worst day ever) if he can win like that at Indiana he could win multiple titles with the resources Tennessee has.

I also think Lane Kiffin is just now entering his peak years of his career

we can't have any of those coaches but you specifically said "who is your model coach" and "unlimited resources" so I am suspending reality here.

 

[Hairy Vols]

None of these guys could hold Heupel's jock....none were even close to his record

It might be the worst set of comparisons I’ve ever seen on this board.

 

[UTFranklinVol]

I mentioned this earlier in the thread but here it is again. Our friend is still a DC & has played against TN during the probation. Yes...the penalties & reductions matter. That is not opinion. It's fact from someone who is in the arena and coaching for a living. He said it's just a cumulative issue of not being able to go after a few kids each class and not being able to build that depth.

TN has literally spent this entire decade (and will continue to do so until 2027!) dealing with the Pruitt debacle.

the recruiting restrictions are a headwind but never an excuse. if Curt Cignetti can win 11 games at Indiana when Indiana has never sniffed a recruiting class as good as Tennessee during these years of probation (or ever) then this argument that in year 5 these restrictions are an excuse is just a bad look. if you can coach, you can coach.

 

[MiramarVol]

Are we not short on scholarships? Didn't we take a major hit when he took over? Those have been a hinderance and not a help to the football program since he took the job.

 

[jbr82]

Nope. It’s yr 5 all his coaches and players. And the SEC will get tougher

 

[kckempf]

it's an opinion that those things have a meaningful impact on the on field results with NIL and the portal. heupel has already achieved good recruiting results and I refute the notion that having 2 more scholarships and a couple more visits per year would have significantly altered the trajectory of this program. to think otherwise is to be willfully ignorant. are those things headwinds? sure. are they an excuse for our results, absolutely not. we won 10 games in heupel's 2nd season. that's all the proof you need to see that it's not a real issue just an annoyance.

That response is just saying "look over there!". It doesn't at all address the scholarship restrictions and recruiting restrictions, it's an attempt to ignore them.

 

[njvols]

As long as the team stays engaged and bought in for JH, then you can have one “meh” season. I don’t think it would happen, but let’s say worst case happens and we lose to OK, UF and Vandy, ending in 7-5 season. He wouldn’t be fired. However, you string together another 7-5 with incoming new qb and there’s a chance he’s gone. I think with NIL/transfer portal era, and you think you’ve got the right coach, most teams are going to have to be comfortable with an under achieving season every now and then, especially when you’ve got key injuries which impacts the season. I think we all recognize if we don’t have our best DB’s which has impacted our worst in class pass D…but this was also known going into portal season. We did pull in one good one, but needed more.