Iran

[volfanhill]

 

[W.TN.Orange Blood]

 

[EasternVol]

I never said we're the good guys. I just said we're not the villains.

25 years of relative stability. We've definitely had worse ROI playing this stupid game.

A lot of people, especially in Iran, would say that those who play God with other countries’ forms of government are indeed the villains. Let’s not forget the downside that relative stability for us brought to the Iranian people, directly and indirectly.
We can probably find those who tout the current regime’s 47 years of relative stability fwiw.

 

[EasternVol]

I don’t think that’s accurate. Supposedly we went to them trying to negotiate terms for them to give up their nukes and they said “F you. We’re not giving them up”

If that’s their attitude then there’s not much to negotiate.

That’s Witkoff’s story but others who were there say progress was being made.

 

[Smokey123]

In 1953, every single strategy, tactic, plan, thought, and idea with our foreign policy centered around communism and the threat of its expansion in the world. Oil was important, especially for the British, but addressing any potential of Iran being a Soviet satellite country was the focus. Here is the money sentence for our policy with Iran in 1953:

View attachment 825810

 

[MemphisVol77]

I've read that the behavior of the Japanese military before and during the war was an anomalous deviation from what their society had been that happened virtually overnight

Interesting.

They cut their teeth a couple of millennia ago defending against early Tang dynasties from China. Another millennia later, the Mongols made them level up. Even by medieval standards, the Samarai wars that unified Japan, were absolute ruthless bloodbath.

They didn't wage any wars of conquest until about 20 years after we kicked the doors down and made them open their borders for trade.

Maybe it had been laying dormant the entire time.

 

[EasternVol]

Ballsy. Can't blame them at this point in the game.

Yeah, we definitely can. And it would be cowardly, very cowardly.

 

[W.TN.Orange Blood]

 

[85SugarVol]

No way, "I don’t give a damn what random liberals think. Let that sink in" is how you know that someone is definitely not triggered

I’m the top most un-triggered, stone-cold mf’r on this site. Call me triggered again and your’e gonna have a problem. Butch.

 

[MemphisVol77]

A lot of people, especially in Iran, would say that those who play God with other countries’ forms of government are indeed the villains. Let’s not forget the downside that relative stability for us brought to the Iranian people, directly and indirectly.
We can probably find those who tout the current regime’s 47 years of relative stability fwiw.

I'm not gonna try and whitewash our involvement in the coup. Just plain wrong........

All I can do is ask what else could we have done? And would it have left Iran any better off? All unproven hypotheticals at this point.

Do we completely disengage after negotiations with Mossadegh fall apart, or have not gotten engaged from the get go? I believe that ends with Britain occupying Iran provided the USSR stays out. The USSR involved or not, I don't see how Iran ends up any better off.

Mossadegh certainly seemed the real deal to effect liberal reform. He still came from the same opulent aristocracy as Reza, though. History is full of those types getting swallowed by institutional bureaucracy and corruption or becoming corrupt themselves. How much responsibility do we truly bear for the Islamic regime because of re-empowering the Shah 25 years prior?

 

[Smokey123]

I didn't mean to imply the USSR was a causative agent in the crisis, but insulating Iran from 'Soviet" influence was a primary concern in resolving the crisis.

The dollar had recently surpassed the pound as the dominant global currency and we wanted to keep it that way. We needed a stable mid-east for that.

Britain had already taken proxy military action, mobilized, and threatened direct action against Iran. They weren't bluffing.
The Soviets, thankfully, had taken a hands off approach to the crisis That doesn't mean the Soviets didn't still want oil concessions from Iran. Although not very probable (particularly in hindsight), Mossadegh reaching out to Stalin for a trade deal was a real concern that could have taken us and Britain off the table. Iran then becomes a bear England doesn't dare poke. With the centralized USSR bank & western banking currency being veritably incompatible, the petro-dollar doesn't develop........

I should have better clarified the difference in what I meant between 'communist' & 'Soviet' influence. We didn't particularly care about communist idealogy without Soviet backing. We'd certainly use the fear as propaganda whenever it was to our benefit. though.

I wasn't aware we'd lied about Mossadegh's involvement with Tudeh, btw. Good and twisted

Trying to stop the soviets was the reason for a lot of foreign policies.
In this case it was more propaganda garbage to manipulate people. The Tudeh and the Soviets even called him an American puppet

 

[Franklin Pierce]

New: Peace Talks With Iranian Regime Have Failed, Vance Gives Details From Islamabad​

After 21 hours of negotiation with whatever is left of the Iranian regime, Vice President JD Vance emerged from the meeting in Islamabad, Pakistan, with a somber update: The talks have failed.

While speaking to the press, Vance explained that the Iranians were not willing to make the necessary commitments not to pursue nuclear weapons in the future, even as he noted their current capacity to do so had been destroyed during Operation Epic Fury. He and the rest of the American delegation will now leave Pakistan, having given the regime a final offer they show no signs of accepting.

New: Peace Talks With Iranian Regime Have Failed, Vance Gives Details From Islamabad

VP JD Vance reports failed Iran talks in Islamabad after 21 hours of negotiations with no agreement.

redstate.com

 

[BernardKingGOAT]

This may be true for you and some others but is not true for others out there, some who make videos wanting him taken out and “gutted” and a few on here who are mental and do not care about anything else than Trumps failure and/or impeachment and/or death. Undeniable fact.

Pard, Trump is a low brow joke. You're speaking of an extreme fringe. Yeah, they want him gone but the middle 50 are just tired of his incompetent ass. It's ridiculous to make a point of a fringe element. You seemed suckered in like an uninformed, low info citizen and I know you not that gullible

 

[Redleg68]

Pard, Trump is a low brow joke. You're speaking of an extreme fringe. Yeah, they want him gone but the middle 50 are just tired of his incompetent ass. It's ridiculous to make a point of a fringe element. You seemed suckered in like an uninformed, low info citizen and I know you not that gullible

Whelp. I would rather have a low brow joke, than the complete joke that just left office.

 

[Redleg68]

MSN

What in the H#$% has happened to England? Argentina would whip their butt now. No way that they can be any help on the water anywhere. Is their entire military in that sad shape?

 

[Skooter]

Pard, Trump is a low brow joke. You're speaking of an extreme fringe. Yeah, they want him gone but the middle 50 are just tired of his incompetent ass. It's ridiculous to make a point of a fringe element. You seemed suckered in like an uninformed, low info citizen and I know you not that gullible

No it’s not when we have a few of the fringe element in threads. That’s a fact. Being naive to it doesn’t make it untrue. They show it time and time again and would be smiling and dancing should something happen to trump, just like other nutjobs did when Kirk was killed.
Hate mixed with mental is a bad mix.

 

[MemphisVol77]

Trying to stop the soviets was the reason for a lot of foreign policies.
In this case it was more propaganda garbage to manipulate people. The Tudeh and the Soviets even called him an American puppet

Removing our engagement and reason for engaging from the crisis doesn't answer my question though.

Britain's military is mobilized and ready to act. Does the USSR sit back and watch or get involved? How is Iran left any better off when the dust settles?

Just because we clearly acted in our own self interest doesn't mean we didn't try to help. That's why I say we're not the good guys, but we're not the villains either.

 

[volfanhill]

No it’s not when we have a few of the fringe element in threads. That’s a fact. Being naive to it doesn’t make it untrue. They show it time and time again and would be smiling and dancing should something happen to trump, just like other nutjobs did when Kirk was killed.
Hate mixed with mental is a bad mix.

Name them. Be specific

 

[NashVol11]

Whelp. I would rather have a low brow joke, than the complete joke that just left office.

No one even brought up Biden

 

[Skooter]

Name them. Be specific

Not you. And the posts will be deleted the minute I do so no.
I imagine the Charlie Kirk thread would give some good hints, as well as others insisting Iran regime has never been a terrorist regime with 50+ years of proof and killed 1M of their own people.

 

[volfanhill]

Not you. And the posts will be deleted the minute I do so no.
I imagine the Charlie Kirk thread would give some good hints, as well as others insisting Iran regime has never been a terrorist regime with 50+ years of proof and killed 1M of their own people.

I don't think a single poster is guilty of what you claim or would celebrate that. Difference of opinion I suppose.

And no you wouldn't have posts deleted for making a theory

 

[Skooter]

I don't think a single poster is guilty of what you claim or would celebrate that. Difference of opinion I suppose.

And no you wouldn't have posts deleted for making a theory

Difference of opinion is fine. Some can’t handle it.
When seeing red with hate and consumed by it 24/7, decency is out the door so yes I do think we have a couple/few looneys who probably wouldn’t post about it but would be happy.

 

[NashVol11]

 

[NashVol11]

I don't think a single poster is guilty of what you claim or would celebrate that. Difference of opinion I suppose.

And no you wouldn't have posts deleted for making a theory

People like Marcus also kept saying within the Kirk thread that there were people here who celebrated his death, and then when called out there were never any examples

 

[EasternVol]

I'm not gonna try and whitewash our involvement in the coup. Just plain wrong........

All I can do is ask what else could we have done? And would it have left Iran any better off? All unproven hypotheticals at this point.

Do we completely disengage after negotiations with Mossadegh fall apart, or have not gotten engaged from the get go? I believe that ends with Britain occupying Iran provided the USSR stays out. The USSR involved or not, I don't see how Iran ends up any better off.

We could have told the UK to cool and let Mossadegh do his thing. If things later jumped the rails it wouldn't be on us.
I doubt the UK could have occupied Iran even if they really wanted to. They were spent and withdrawing from imperialism after WWII.

Mossadegh certainly seemed the real deal to effect liberal reform. He still came from the same opulent aristocracy as Reza, though. History is full of those types getting swallowed by institutional bureaucracy and corruption or becoming corrupt themselves.

Good points. He may well have failed. Or he may have led a model government. Too bad we'll never know.

How much responsibility do we truly bear for the Islamic regime because of re-empowering the Shah 25 years prior?

Well, here we are, so...
.