Iran

[marcusluvsvols]

Thanks. I used the wrong one in a earlier post. It didn't look right, but I didn't bother to look it up.

Didnt see it. D4h only uses rational. Strangely several posters here struggle with homonyms. (I know rational and rationale aren't homonyms like you're and your) I dropped out of HS after football season in 11th grade and immediately got my GED at 17 and went to work in construction. I am mostly self educated because I enjoy reading ...not an English major trying to be a "word snob". Hope I didnt come across that way brother. There are many subjects in which I am ignorant...and most folks here have more formal education than I do.

 

[RavinDave]

Public service announcement on the difference between

Rational and Rationale

You're welcome.
*Not "your".

View attachment 752193

Gave you a like for being the grammar (not grammer) Nazi instead of me.

 

[Orange_Crush]

Gave you a like for being the grammar (not grammer) Nazi instead of me.

Marcus will forever now be known as 'the Grammar Hammer'.

 

[just bob]

Do you know anything about the “Islamic World” in SE Asia? I’m guessing “no”…

I know that the vast majority of Islamic countries are quite less than desirable. Do you want to know who else knows that? You.

You're really on team post Islamic Iranian Revolution, eh? lmao

 

[85SugarVol]

I know that the vast majority of Islamic countries are quite less than desirable. Do you want to know who else knows that? You.

You're really on team post Islamic Iranian Revolution, eh? lmao

You’re referring to the Middle East, which is why I asked about SouthEast Asia. It was rhetorical, don’t worry about it.

I’m not sure how you could come to that conclusion, but I have no idea how you come to most of your conclusions.

 

[Orangeburst]

This thing will fire back up..inevitable.

 

[Dobbs 4 Heisman]

Funding terror proxies across the region is something a fundamentalist Muslim would approve of.
- D4H

Yikes.

One could also say they're funding freedom fighters trying to free their people from oppression.

My point is there's two sides to every coin. The American/Israeli view of Iran is just one way to look at things. Others might view them as funding popular resistance movements in countries where the people are being oppressed by outsiders. Whose right? Well its matter of perspective. That's my only point. I'm not advocating for radical Islam. Just telling they have an equally valid perspective.

 

[85SugarVol]

One could also say they're funding freedom fighters trying to free their people from oppression.

My point is there's two sides to every coin. The American/Israeli view of Iran is just one way to look at things. Others might view them as funding popular resistance movements in countries where the people are being oppressed by outsiders. Whose right? Well its matter of perspective. That's my only point. I'm not advocating for radical Islam. Just telling they have an equally valid perspective.

They’re funding Terror.

Noted though that you believe radical Islam is an “equally valid perspective”.

 

[Dobbs 4 Heisman]

So you support evil as long as they have dogma to support evil. If I had religion that said I can enslave back people. Then we enslave you. Blacks can't be mad. Rest of the world has to be good with it too.

Let's go with your hypothetical. If there was a country where black people were still enslaved I might find that situation disheartening but I wouldn't advocate America get involved militarily to try and force a regime change or even attack them to force them to change their ways. There are non-military means of forcing a nation that isn't complying with global norms to eventually comply.

Look no further than how apartheid ended in South Africa. We didn't need to military attack South Africa to get the racist white regime to stop oppressing black South Africans. Apartheid ended due to international pressure and economic sanctions against the racist government in South Africa. Interestingly the United States and Israel supported the apartheid regime in South Africa. Just another example of how America and Israel aren't exactly beacons for morality on the global stage.

 

[volfanhill]

Let's go with your hypothetical. If there was a country where black people were still enslaved I might find that situation disheartening but I wouldn't advocate America get involved militarily to try and force a regime change or even attack them to force them to change their ways. There are non-military means of forcing a nation that isn't complying with global norms to eventually comply.

Look no further than how apartheid ended in South Africa. We didn't need to military attack South Africa to get the racist white regime to stop oppressing black South Africans. Apartheid ended due to international pressure and economic sanctions against the racist government in South Africa. Interestingly the United States and Israel supported the apartheid regime in South Africa. Just another example of how America and Israel aren't exactly beacons for morality on the global stage.

I never brought up military intervention. You are signing off on unacceptable beliefs and behavior under the guise of "well it's their beliefs." They can F off. I have zero sympathy for them. And we should do what we can within reason to prevent their belief system from spreading. On human rights issues alone.


Side note: I refuse to take you seriously until you admit you were FOS about attending Duke. Until then you are just a sad little man

 

[C-south]

Let's go with your hypothetical. If there was a country where black people were still enslaved I might find that situation disheartening but I wouldn't advocate America get involved militarily to try and force a regime change or even attack them to force them to change their ways. There are non-military means of forcing a nation that isn't complying with global norms to eventually comply.

Look no further than how apartheid ended in South Africa. We didn't need to military attack South Africa to get the racist white regime to stop oppressing black South Africans. Apartheid ended due to international pressure and economic sanctions against the racist government in South Africa. Interestingly the United States and Israel supported the apartheid regime in South Africa. Just another example of how America and Israel aren't exactly beacons for morality on the global stage.

Just look at how SA is thriving today. Almost on par with the rest of Africa.

 

[marcusluvsvols]

They’re funding Terror.

Noted though that you believe radical Islam is an “equally valid perspective”.

Somebody post the meme of the Leftist idiot watering the tree of radical Islam with the noose running from the tree branch directly around the guys neck. It sums up these foolish notions succinctly. Those radicals will happily blow D4H to bits, or run over him in a crowd like New Orleans regardless of his sympathetic ignorance.

 

[Dobbs 4 Heisman]

So you have no problem with the government doing what it does because it's sanctioned by their religion?

You would allow nothing of the sort from Christians though. And there was a time when this kind of behavior was demanded in the early church.

I find your defense of Islam strange given some of your criticisms of evangelical Christians. I'm struggling to place your frame of thought here. Not criticizing you necessarily, I just have a blind spot and don't seem to be able to view it the way you do.

Well we don't live in a Christian theocracy. Our founding fathers created a nation that was secular. We're governed by the Constitution not the Bible. Iran isn't a secular democracy. It's a Islamic theocracy. They're governed by the Quran.

And for the record I'm not defending them. I'm defending what they believe. I've never once said gays should be killed or women need to cover their hair (though dressing modestly is never a bad thing). All I'm saying is they aren't doing anything that isn't in full compliance with their religion. You guys are trying to make them seem as if they're irrational actors. I'm simply arguing what they're doing makes sense from an Islamic perspective.

I would never want to live in Iran. Nor would I want the Iranian way to life to come to America. But just because I don't like doesn't mean we need to attack them because of how they choose to live. To me it's their problem. If the Iranian people don't like their government then let them change it. It should be none of our business what Iran does inside it's own borders.

 

[C-south]

Well we don't live in a Christian theocracy. Our founding fathers created a nation that was secular. We're governed by the Constitution not the Bible. Iran isn't a secular democracy. It's a Islamic theocracy. They're governed by the Quran.

And for the record I'm not defending them. I'm defending what they believe. I've never once said gays should be killed or women need to cover their hair (though dressing modestly is never a bad thing). All I'm saying is they aren't doing anything that isn't in full compliance with their religion. You guys are trying to make them seem as if they're irrational actors. I'm simply arguing what they're doing makes sense from an Islamic perspective.

I would never want to live in Iran. Nor would I want the Iranian way to life to come to America. But just because I don't like doesn't mean we need to attack them because of how they choose to live. To me it's their problem. If the Iranian people don't like their government then let them change it. It should be none of our business what Iran does inside it's own borders.

If you don’t think we were founded as Christian theocracy I don’t know what to tell you. They wanted us to be tolerant of other religions, not invaded and destroyed from within.

 

[Dobbs 4 Heisman]

All agreed until the last few sentences. Some, today mainly KSA, stoke anti-Shia sentiment, and rabble fall for it. It's been that way for ages. Many or most Sunnis certainly appreciate that Iran's government does something to support the oppressed in Palestine and elsewhere while their own governments do nothing. But their support of Iran's government isn't total.

Obviously there are still differences between the two that creates separation but it's not significant enough that Sunnis would support Israel or America over Iran. That was my point. He was trying to make it seem as though the differences in Sunni and Shia was significant enough that the Sunni might want Israel or America to win in a war. And that would be a laughable take.

Fundamentalist Sunni might look at Fundamentalist Shias as heretics. But as they always the enemy of my enemy is my friend. So no matter how much Sunnis and Shias might hate each other they'll always hate America and Israel more. Which is why bringing up the Sunni/Shia divide in a conversation over Iran vs Israel and America is laughable. There's not a single Sunni Muslim in the world rooting for Israel over Iran. They can hate Iran all they want. I promise you they hate Israel more.

 

[Dobbs 4 Heisman]

Killing peaceful protesters by the score isn't Islamic law. Neither is framing people for captital crimes. Or supporting proxies that bomb bus stops. The list goes on.
They make what is preferable but not mandatory per the religion, like head scarves, mandatory per their whims. And if anyone objects they play the God card. KSA does similar.
They're tyrants as theocracies generally are.

Agreed. I just don't think it's our business to get involved. If the Iranian don't like it they can rise up and overthrow them like they did the Shah. Especially when the present Iranian government doesn't have the support of America like the Shah.

Obviously there's enough domestic support for the Iranian government for them to remain in power. We'll see if they overplayed their hand and the people depose them. My opinion is the attack by Israel and America only strengthened the Islamic Regime's popularity in the country. So if you were hoping for regime change militarily attacking Iran was probably the worst thing you could do.

 

[Dobbs 4 Heisman]

They keep funding Hamas so no, they aren’t supporting the oppressed Palestinians.

Isn't Hamas the ruling government in Gaza?

I know we demonize Hamas here in America but they were the democratically elected government of Gaza and so if Iran is supporting Hamas then they are supporting the Palestinians considering that's their elected government.

 

[Dobbs 4 Heisman]

you realize that split is still a pretty big deal to them right? We are in the political forum, one of the biggest fights we have here, and in the rest of the country, is exactly that "minor" disagreement the Muslims have: who leads them.

they have been fighting each other since the very start. Ali was assassinated by the Sunni, and there were wars between the multiple different wars between caliphates based purely on who was in charge of the religion. The Sunnis won early which is why they make up most of the population now.

there is little antagonism because the Shia make up such a small percentage of the total, and most of their population is either in Shia controlled territory or other secular nations. there is very little interaction between the two, and when there is it is typically dominated by one of the other and the locals just have to accept the rule. it is not a situation of "separate but equals" and more of "you stay over there and we will tolerate you"

But that's not the issue here. We were talking about who the Sunni Muslims around the world supported. The Shia government of Iran or America and Israel? And no matter how much Sunnis and Shias might hate each other, I promise you they hate Israel and America more. So in context Iran versus Israel and America, there ain't a Sunni alive that's siding with Israel and America over Iran.

 

[volfanhill]

My Dad was Duke grad. He was stubborn too. However, he was no fool. Maybe this non Duke grad will see the light

 

[85SugarVol]

Dude reads wiki one time watches one YouTube video and thinks he’s an expert. Sunni’s also face a lot of discrimination in Iran

Fyp

 

[Dobbs 4 Heisman]

They’re funding Terror.

Noted though that you believe radical Islam is an “equally valid perspective”.

They would call what we do terror. And in terms of kills they would be correct. We've killed more people in our wars in Iraq and Afghanistan than all terrorist groups combined have ever done.

 

[OHvol40]

They’re funding Terror.

Noted though that you believe radical Islam is an “equally valid perspective”.

I don’t know what qualifies a perspective as “equal”, but It’s certainly valid because it’s a real perspective of real people living on this earth.

 

[85SugarVol]

I don’t know what qualifies a perspective as “equal”, but It’s certainly valid because it’s a real perspective of real people living on this earth.

That’s why “equally” is included in the quotation.

 

[Dobbs 4 Heisman]

I never brought up military intervention. You are signing off on unacceptable beliefs and behavior under the guise of "well it's their beliefs." They can F off. I have zero sympathy for them. And we should do what we can within reason to prevent their belief system from spreading. On human rights issues alone.


Side note: I refuse to take you seriously until you admit you were FOS about attending Duke. Until then you are just a sad little man

Well last I checked this thread popped off after military conflict started between Iran and Israel/America. So that's the context of my discussion here. If you’re just talking in a vacuum about Iran and the issue of potential military conflict is off the table then sure screw Iran and their government. I would be happy if tomorrow the Iranian people overthrew the Ayatollahs and installed a secular democratic government that protected human rights for all Iranians.

I'm just not gonna join in the demonization of Iran while the drum beat for war rages. That's been my only argument in this thread. It hasn't been to defend the Iranian government. Just that it isn't our business what they do and that nothing they've done warrants us getting involved militarily.

 

[OHvol40]

That’s why “equally” is included in the quotation.

Maybe you can explain what that means, because as far as I’m concerned, perspectives can’t be greater-than or less-than, they just are. It’s a point of view, a situation one finds one-self in.