Iran

[MemphisVol77]

I guess you don't understand what I meant by they tried to be western like us and we still attacked them so they reverted back to Islamic fundamentalism. Regardless of the rosy picture you have tried to put on the oppressive dictatorship of the Shah the Iranian people revolted against him

No matter how disingenuously you pick your replies and try and parse the picture, they have agency and are responsible.

Are you suggesting they didn't have a constitution from 1906 to 1978 that only got amended 4 times? When did British Petroleum get involved? Did they not sign a 60 year lease or contract?

Did they not have a Shah before and after we intervened? Did they not welcome our involvement multiple times before 1978? They wanted to remain occupied by the Soviet Union under Stalin's yoke before we intervened?

How did the format and function of their government change from the years immediately preceding our involvement to the years immediately after our involvement? Did they do away with Parliament? By immediate I mean 1-5 years, not 25 years later.

You post so disingenuously it's ridiculous.

I realize your pseudo academic/intellectual shtick relies on rote memorization and you're not prepared to answer some of these questions you keep avoiding. Normally you inundate the board with statistics, links, and images to try and prove your rehearsed talking points. On this thread you're just verbosely moralizing 'aMeRIca BaD!'.

Maybe quit trying to redact 100+ years of their history to American causation. My point has been consistent, that Iran has embraced American/western involvement (embraced both morally good and morally bad aspects of our involvement), at different times depending on how it benefits their leadership.

If you really think the Shah we deposed was any less or more corrupt than the Shah we propped up, you're hopelessly naive. I don't blame the Iranians for rebelling. I blame Islamic fundamentalists for seizing the zeitgeist and installing an even more oppressive regime than the Iranians endured from approximately 1906-1978 under the Shahs.

MENA states as a whole never seen to have a problem accepting western aid and influence over the past 100 odd years when they're getting what they want. For some reason when something goes wrong, casual racists like you blame the West and the only democratic state in the region.

 

[EasternVol]

Well I don't think any people or governments are evil. I think all humans are the same. We can all be pushed to good or evil. The Iranian regime is a response to our actions. As I stated many times already before we installed the Shah Iran was a secular democracy where women wore miniskirts. We created the current fundamentalist regime through our meddling.

So if you think the current Iranian government is evil then it's because of our actions not because the Iranian people have this inherent desire to support Islamic fundamentalism or hate America. They hate us because of what we've done to them. And that isn't owning Iranian flags but simply knowing history.

People who are pushed to good or evil are called good or evil though. And some don't seem to need pushing . Pol Pot and his cohort were evil, no debate. Nobody forced them to set up the system they did.
Governments, especially autocracies, reflect the good or evil of their leaders. What I'd call Iran's government evil for doesn't come from us but from their desire to hold power at all costs.

 

[EasternVol]

What exactly have we 'done to them'? They have less ****s to give about that than the average Gen Z does about the Vietnam war.

Some people still hate yankees because of Lincoln.

 

[EasternVol]

The present Iranian government is a response to something we did. Iran used to be secular like us with women wearing miniskirts and western values and we toppled that secular government in 1953 and installed a dictatorship that oppressed the Iranian people.

When people get desperate they turn to religion. So the Iranian people thought the only way they could defend themselves from western aggression is to turn back to their faith. They tried to be good western secular folk and we said nope here's a dictator. It's natural they would turn to something else in a defensive posture against more American aggression.

I'm not so sure Iran had a secular society with western values. What do you base that on?
Just to clarify, if they didn't it's no knock on them.

 

[EasternVol]

Reassuring...

He has a future in comedy.

 

[EasternVol]

Why would Iran want the "Death of America" if we stopped our aggression toward them and support for Israel? Once again yall act like Iran was born hating us. Our actions are why the relationship is hostile. If we weren't trying to constantly topple their government like Russia and China we would have a good relationship with them like those other non-Islamic countries.

The idea that the Iranian are just out to kill us for no reason other than the fact we exist is just not true. Our actions in aggression toward them are why they hate us. If we weren't aggressive toward them they would be friendly with us just like they are with non-Islamic Russia and China.

They've based a whole lot of their foreign policy on opposing Israel. They're not likely to be very cordial as long as our special relationship there continues.

 

[EasternVol]

You really need to read some history books. The potential casualty numbers and the fact the war might last another 3 to 5 years is the reason we dropped those bombs.

Didn't Eisenhower say we didn't need to drop the bombs?

 

[rekinhavoc]

"Israel is killing ordinary people as well. At some point, people will start to take the side of the Islamic Republic," he added.

Darya, 26, said: "I think the fact that people are not coming out to protest is already a clear response" to Netanyahu's call.

"I wouldn't go even if Israel bombed my house. Netanyahu is hiding behind Iranian nationalist slogans and pretends he's helping Iranians reach freedom while he's targeted residential areas. It's going to take years just to rebuild the country."

Arezou, 22, said she did not know what to think.

"I hate the regime, and I hate what it's done to us. But when I see bombs falling, I think of my grandmother, my little cousin. And I've seen what Netanyahu did to Gaza - do you really think he cares about Iranians? This isn't about us, it's about [Israeli] politics," she said.

"I feel like I have to choose between two evils, and I can't. I just want my people safe. I want to breathe without fear."

Mina, 27, said: "I want this regime gone more than anything - but not like this. Not through more bombs, more death."

"Israel is not our saviour. When innocent people die, it's not a step toward freedom, it's another form of injustice. I don't want to trade one kind of terror for another. I'm against this regime and also against this war. We deserve a better way out than this."

I read that as well. Bottom line the regime cares about retaining power and not their people. Of course these people have no love for Israel.

 

[PEPPERJAX]

Nice to see D4H acts the same here as he does in the recruiting forum

I prefer his posts in the FF when he predicts UT is going to win it all every season.

 

[rekinhavoc]

Iranian Resistance Leader: 'Khamenei Must Go’ After U.S. Strikes Regime Nuclear Sites

Following airstrikes targeting Iran’s key nuclear facilities, Maryam Rajavi, president-elect of the NCRI, declared, “Now Khamenei must go."

www.breitbart.com

 

[Orangeslice13]

Wow anecdotally two churches that aren't listed or verified anywhere, I guess that means they can kill whoever they want and still be the good guys. Someone should have told that to other murderous regimes

Your complaints fall on deaf ears because the people you support are always 10 times worse. I attended a wedding in one of those churches via zoom meeting. Your inability to locate it is irrelevant. And what kind of logical jump is that?
Israel has shown great restraint in their approach and the death totals have been minimized by it. It’s not lost on me that the crowd crying about this has no answers as to how they could handle it differently to achieve better results.

there are no good guys in war.
The responsibility for all these deaths still falls on Hamas.
There is no war without 10/07
The death totals would be far less if Hamas didn’t hide behind the people they were elected to protect
We don’t know the actual totals as the side you support, who makes the claims are proven liars


And in any senecio the Israelis are morally superior to the people of Hamas.

 

[Majors]

Probably been mentioned but how is this different than what Obama did as President when he dropped bombs on other countries. Is this tweet not accurate

It’s liberal privilege. People truly aren’t upset we destroyed Irans facilities, they are just mad it was Trump who made the call.

 

[Vol8188]

I'm talking about this guy: Mohammad Mosaddegh - Wikipedia

He was democratically elected by the Iranian parliament. He wasn't chosen by the Shah. And people naturally turn to religion in hard times. There's a reason the most religious countries tend to be in Africa where poverty and violence is prevalent. While the least religious countries are the rich and safe Scandinavian countries.

Whether you like it or not before we installed a dictator Iran had a secular government and women wore miniskirts in Tehran. We pushed the Iranian people into a corner and they went to the only thing they could. Religion.

Some real history for you. Mosaddegh is the man who actually dissolved their parliament because parliament opposed nationalization of oil. Per the Iranian constitution only the Shah had the power to appoint PM. And Mosaddegh admits as much when he says openly that he demanded to be voted on by parliament prior to taking.

Meaning he admits he was first offered by The Shah

So when you accuse the US of overthrowing him and putting The Shah in power, he already had the power. Similar to the way they still have a parliament today.

If your king is picking your prime minister, you don’t have a democracy. You have a limited monarchy

Loading…

www.tabletmag.com

 

[Vol8188]

Nice to see D4H acts the same here as he does in the recruiting forum

90% of his political forum posts are him telling us the ethnicity of people throughout history based on their hair style in order to defend his Afrocentric historical view.

It’s amazing. He will take South American skeletons and tell you based on the way they braided their hair, they’re obviously African

 

[Vol8188]

He was elected by their parliament. The Shah confirmed the results.

The Shah first selected him. As he had every single prime minister before him.

The only difference is he demanded to first be approved by parliament and then by The Shah.

Which is funny for a man who later dissolved parliament

 

[NashVol11]

So we should just keep assuming it's going to stay that way? Then what happens if three months from now and we wake up one morning and Tel Aviv no longer exists on a map or Bahrain home of the USN 5th fleet or Al Udeid our massive USAF base in Qatar?

Then what?

Then you wake up from your fever dream and rejoin reality

 

[NashVol11]

Your complaints fall on deaf ears because the people you support are always 10 times worse. I attended a wedding in one of those churches via zoom meeting. Your inability to locate it is irrelevant. And what kind of logical jump is that?

My question every time someone responds to objections to the killing of tens of thousands of innocents by saying "gay rights"

Israel has shown great restraint in their approach and the death totals have been minimized by it. It’s not lost on me that the crowd crying about this has no answers as to how they could handle it differently to achieve better results.

there are no good guys in war.
The responsibility for all these deaths still falls on Hamas.
There is no war without 10/07
The death totals would be far less if Hamas didn’t hide behind the people they were elected to protect
We don’t know the actual totals as the side you support, who makes the claims are proven liars


And in any senecio the Israelis are morally superior to the people of Hamas.

Tell me more about this "moral superiority"

Poll: 82% of Israelis want to expel Palestinians from Gaza; 47% want to kill every man, woman, child - Geopolitical Economy Report

Poll found 82% of full citizens of Israel want expel Palestinians from Gaza. 47% support killing every single man, woman, and child in Gaza. Ex PM Ehud Olmert admitted Israel is waging a "war of extermination: the indiscriminate, unrestrained, cruel, and criminal killing of civilians".

geopoliticaleconomy.com

 

[GroverCleveland]

Didn't Eisenhower say we didn't need to drop the bombs?

He did express reservations about the moral aspect of using such a destructive weapon. He also felt that Japan was militarily defeated (he was correct) and expected them to surrender (no one will really know, but I believe he was incorrect).

If we had not because of his recommendation and it turned out to double our military deaths for WW2 by invading Japan, Eisenhower would be a nasty name in American history. I'm not 100% on this, but seems the estimated American casualties to invade Japan ranged as high as one million or more, with the Japanese suffering literally millions of deaths, military and civilian.

I believe Truman made the correct decision for both sides.

 

[NashVol11]

Had we not dropped the bombs on Japan to end the war. There has been estimates that it would have cost 500,000 to 1 million American casualties to invade the Japanese islands.

We didn't lose 500K soldiers in the entirety of WWII and Japan had no real allies left, so that doesn't sound true

 

[Weezy]

Japan fought bitterly on every island. Who knows how it would have gone but imagine sending your 18 year old son over to die in a war you could end with a weapon, frankly against a country that earned no mercy.

 

[EasternVol]

The Shah first selected him. As he had every single prime minister before him.

The only difference is he demanded to first be approved by parliament and then by The Shah.

Which is funny for a man who later dissolved parliament

I wasn't involved in the election but what I've read says first parliament elected him and then the Shah confirmed the results. I believe that's the usual democratic process for selecting a prime minister when there's a monarch.
Dissolving parliament was an autocratic move but wasn't there a referendum on that which passed? And consider also what was going on at the time.
Bottom line is Mossedegh was removed from power for working for his country rather than for BP.

 

[GroverCleveland]

We didn't lose 500K soldiers in the entirety of WWII and Japan had no real allies left, so that doesn't sound true

There is a significant difference between casualties and battle deaths. The poster specifically said casualties. Most historical sources I have read support @CagleMtnVol 's assertion.

 

[Vol8188]

I wasn't involved in the election but what I've read says first parliament elected him and then the Shah confirmed the results. I believe that's the usual democratic process for selecting a prime minister when there's a monarch.
Dissolving parliament was an autocratic move but wasn't there a referendum on that which passed? And consider also what was going on at the time.
Bottom line is Mossedegh was removed from power for working for his country rather than for BP.

That’s the “democratic process”, sure. But it wasn’t the process in Iran. The constitution specified the power to select and remove a PM was given to The Shah.

It’s fair to say Mosaddegh’s confirmation was different. Parliament still didn’t select him. The Shah selected him, but prior to agreeing to formally accept the appointment from The Shah he first wished to be approved by parliament.

He was the only PM approved first by parliament.

Loading…

www.tabletmag.com

 

[LouderVol]

So we should just keep assuming it's going to stay that way? Then what happens if three months from now and we wake up one morning and Tel Aviv no longer exists on a map or Bahrain home of the USN 5th fleet or Al Udeid our massive USAF base in Qatar?

Then what?

its a big assumption that our involvement changes any of that. unless we magically wiped out 100% of all Iranian nuclear reserves and capacity to produce any enriched materials Iran will still be able to produce dirty bombs. and we just made it much more likely that we are targeted. before Trump got us involved there would have been very little reason for Iran to hit us.

Tel Aviv not existing would be the fault of Israel attacking Iran. Israel started that fight, its not our job to finish their fights for them.

congrats on the 20 more years of pointless war in the middle east that we lose and another Patriot Act to keep us "safe".

 

[KB5252]

I agree but isn't Iran not a rational actor but instead religious fanatics. I mean that's what you've been trying to convince me all this time. That we have to act against them because they're not a normal state interested in normal geopolitics. If they're so crazy why would Russia and China play with that fire? Wouldn't they join us in neutralizing an irrational actor who would use nukes to bring about a religious Armageddon?

This is why the Iranians are religious fanatics holds no weight. Russia and China wouldn't support them if they were irrational actors. It's obvious Iran is a rational player on the world stage and acting like they would use nuclear weapons in an irrational manner is nothing more than fear mongering by those who want to start another war.

I never never attempted to convince you they were religious fanatics. Just the largest state sponsor of terror, though I do believe they are religious fanatics. Their rhetoric is pretty straight forward. The fact they are fanatics really isn't important.

Now the Russia and China question is very obvious. Iran serves multiple purposes. Below market oil, a counter in the region to apply pressure on the US and thereby a challenge to the existing world order.

Russia and China absolutely would look the other way hold their nose and do support them because they serve a purpose. Just like they have cozied up to regimes in Africa that have killed and raped based on tribal ancestry. They have resources China wants and needs.

Russia and China aren't looking around the world and seeking out the moral and responsible among us. They are meeting needs with strategic alliances, not putting together a league of the virtuous. Don't you get it, they are no different than us. They will play nice and ask until they are told no one too many times then they will take it.

I'm not saying we are always right, we've done plenty wrong.