Iran

[KB5252]

You're the one that claimed the monarchies of Jordan and Saudi Arabia knew better than their own people on what they need. Stop running away from your position after realizing how stupid it was.

Read what I said again. In fact I asked a question. You are adding your assumption, you're arguing with yourself at this point

They make money to provide for their people...... And certainly themselves. Some of those countries provide what their people need better than others. I didn't say where on that spectrum I believed the Sauds were.

If you were to ask my response would be something along the lines of great monetarily, but seriously lacking in many other important ways. Some of their neighbors do a much better job at all their people's needs.

My point was that the people of Iran thought they wanted a strict islamist government. Once they got it it was too late.

 

[MemphisVol77]

@Dobbs 4 Heisman

So doesn't this go against the whole Iranian leadership is crazy and can't be trusted with a nuke so we have to preemptively attack? If they were willing to work with us in Afghanistan doesn't that prove they are a rational actor who will act in their best interests (like every other country). Thus making the likelihood they would use a nuke in a preemptive strike unlikely. Doesn't this all but destroy the logic for why we can't have Iran getting nukes if all they would do is act like every other rational actor and use them as a deterrent against other nations attacking them rather than using them to start nuclear war?

Absolutely not. It's the opposite. Iran increasing their support of terrorists factions after a brief period of cooperation (post 9/11) proves they shouldn't be trusted.

I quoted you and wasn't even replying to any questions about nukes, BTW.

It goes against your previous statements that Iran's government acts in the interest of their people and that Sunnis & Shias will always put aside their differences if it's to the detriment of American/Israeli interests.

@KB5252

You are operating under the assumption that I'm holding Saudi Arabia up. Reread my statement again. You love making up arguments and then parsing your made up details.

It goes on for infinity........

 

[Dobbs 4 Heisman]

He was arrested and tortured in 2023 for “insulting Islamic sanctities”. He’s one of 7 to be executed the last week, 700 others arrested which at least 300 of were for simple social media posts against the IR. Continue to defend a regime that murders citizens that speak out and claim that’s normal thing for Muslim leadership. gfy

Islam is a religion with 7th century morals. You're surprised they're killing people of insulting their religion? Once again how's this our problem? If the Iranians have a problem with barbaric 7th century morals let them fix it themselves. They were able to topple the western backed dictatorship of the Shah because he was apparently brutal. Guess enough Iranians support the barbaric ways of the Islamic Regime cause they haven't revolted against it yet.

Once again it's not our problem what other countries do in their borders.

 

[Dobbs 4 Heisman]

Lmaoooooo. I don’t think the US should be involved in any regime change nor did I support military action. There’s plenty of people in this thread that didn’t support military action and they did so without supporting the Islamic republic.

But continue to defend a horrible oppressive regime while also making insanely ignorant comments

OK. So let me make this clear one final time cause you guys seem to be arguing against something I never said.

1. I hate the Iranian regime.
2. I hate Islamic fundamentalism.
3. I love America and think its the best country on earth.

Just because I call out our interventions in other countries doesn't mean I like those countries. I just love our country and don't want us wasting resources or good will interfering in other folks business. It's weird how the Zionists and Neocons have brainwashed y'all into thinking it's in our interest as Americans to meddle in other people's business.

Iran's problems ain't none of our business. Neither is their psycho religion or their treatment of their people. Let the Iranian people or Muslims at large fix their own problems. And if they don't then I guess they love 7th century barbarism and that shouldn't be our problem either.

 

[Dobbs 4 Heisman]

My point was that the people of Iran thought they wanted a strict islamist government. Once they got it it was too late.

How is it too late? They were able to overthrow the Shah who had the support of both the United States and Great Britain. If they hated their current government so much they would topple it as well. It's obvious enough people in Iran prefer Islamic fundamentalism to whatever other alternatives there are. Same can be said for the Taliban in Afghanistan. The Afghans obviously prefer those lunatics.

Why is it so hard for yall to accept that these people possibly prefer this form of religious law despite how barbaric it is to us? To me its not our business to tell other people how to live. Let Iranians depose the Islamic Regime if its a problem.

 

[Vol8188]

OK. So let me make this clear one final time cause you guys seem to be arguing against something I never said.

1. I hate the Iranian regime.
2. I hate Islamic fundamentalism.
3. I love America and think its the best country on earth.

Just because I call out our interventions in other countries doesn't mean I like those countries. I just love our country and don't want us wasting resources or good will interfering in other folks business. It's weird how the Zionists and Neocons have brainwashed y'all into thinking it's in our interest as Americans to meddle in other people's business.

Iran's problems ain't none of our business. Neither is their psycho religion or their treatment of their people. Let the Iranian people or Muslims at large fix their own problems. And if they don't then I guess they love 7th century barbarism and that shouldn't be our problem either.

Do you believe allowing Iran, China, and Russia to continue gaining military power and influence throughout the world is “in our as Americans”

If so, we 100% disagree.

 

[Dobbs 4 Heisman]

Do you believe allowing Iran, China, and Russia to continue gaining military power and influence throughout the world is “in our as Americans”

If so, we 100% disagree.

We're still the most powerful military in the world by far. We have a gigantic country surrounded by water. We have nukes.

There's nothing for us to worry about that requires constant meddling around the world. Thats a neocon lie to support the military industrial complex. As long we continue to be the world leader in technology and science we'll continue to have the most military on earth and that's what keeps us safe. Not meddling around the world.

 

[Vol8188]

We're still the most powerful military in the world by far. We have a gigantic country surrounded by water. We have nukes.

There's nothing for us to worry about that requires constant meddling around the world. Thats a neocon lie to support the military industrial complex. As long we continue to be the world leader in technology and science we'll continue to have the most military on earth and that's what keeps us safe. Not meddling around the world.

It’s not a lie. Both China and Russia have massive ambitions beyond their own borders. Especially so with Russia. Preventing a nuclear Iran is important to our long term safety because it takes another ally off the board for China and Russia

Then you have the trade aspect of it. We need open shipping lanes and trade relationships with the world to ensure better quality of life. Allowing the government of Iran to slow down global trade in Yemen for example has real consequences here even if it happens on the other side of the world

 

[Redleg68]

We're still the most powerful military in the world by far. We have a gigantic country surrounded by water. We have nukes.

There's nothing for us to worry about that requires constant meddling around the world. Thats a neocon lie to support the military industrial complex. As long we continue to be the world leader in technology and science we'll continue to have the most military on earth and that's what keeps us safe. Not meddling around the world.

I would advise you to go study up on ways to subvert governments and countries internally with subversive acts against power grids, water supplies and communication info structure. we definitely have an interest around the world with countries whose goals are to do us harm. This country is wide open (even more so after the Biden years) to acts of sabotage. Our nukes do us no good in that kind of environment.

 

[MemphisVol77]

Why is it so hard for yall to accept that these people possibly prefer this form of religious law despite how barbaric it is to us? To me its not our business to tell other people how to live. Let Iranians depose the Islamic Regime if its a problem.

@Dobbs 4 Heisman
Because the Islamic Revolution caused their refugee emigration to explode exponentially with estimates being 2-3M fleeing after the regime assumed power. Emigration continued at around 150K per year into the 90's. Those kind of emigration numbers are absolutely unprecedented for Iran. The overwhelming majority of refugees report that the the government is a brutally oppressive regime. Their government has since cracked down on visas. Good luck taking your entire family on vacation abroad if you're Iranian.

Because even protesting a rigged election gets them beaten, tortured, and killed. 2009 Iranian presidential election protests - Wikipedia. Before the Islamic Revolution, they didn't deal with an authoritarian police state like the IRGC has had them under.

 

[Smokey123]

 

[Vol8188]

Carlson is and has been bought and paid for by foreign interests for a long time now. He’s a Bernie Bro who idiots on the right like because he was on Fox and likes Trump

 

[KB5252]

How is it too late? They were able to overthrow the Shah who had the support of both the United States and Great Britain. If they hated their current government so much they would topple it as well. It's obvious enough people in Iran prefer Islamic fundamentalism to whatever other alternatives there are. Same can be said for the Taliban in Afghanistan. The Afghans obviously prefer those lunatics.

Why is it so hard for yall to accept that these people possibly prefer this form of religious law despite how barbaric it is to us? To me its not our business to tell other people how to live. Let Iranians depose the Islamic Regime if its a problem.

A portion of the population for sure. But it's difficult when the government has shock troops and a complete political and judicial system in place to crush any forms of dissent.

The government in Iran is much less popular than you believe IMO. They just have a chokehold on the country. But they have some support for sure.

 

[EasternVol]

Islam is a religion with 7th century morals. You're surprised they're killing people of insulting their religion? Once again how's this our problem? If the Iranians have a problem with barbaric 7th century morals let them fix it themselves. They were able to topple the western backed dictatorship of the Shah because he was apparently brutal. Guess enough Iranians support the barbaric ways of the Islamic Regime cause they haven't revolted against it yet.

Once again it's not our problem what other countries do in their borders.

I think the problem is how they're pretending to base their despotism on religion but are obviously going against religious principles to maintain power.
What century morals do Judaism, Christianity, Hinduism, and Buddhism have?

 

[EasternVol]

@Dobbs 4 Heisman
Because the Islamic Revolution caused their refugee emigration to explode exponentially with estimates being 2-3M fleeing after the regime assumed power. Emigration continued at around 150K per year into the 90's. Those kind of emigration numbers are absolutely unprecedented for Iran. The overwhelming majority of refugees report that the the government is a brutally oppressive regime. Their government has since cracked down on visas. Good luck taking your entire family on vacation abroad if you're Iranian.

Because even protesting a rigged election gets them beaten, tortured, and killed. 2009 Iranian presidential election protests - Wikipedia. Before the Islamic Revolution, they didn't deal with an authoritarian police state like the IRGC has had them under.

True except that they did deal with an authoritarian police state prior to the revolution. It's why they had the revolution. SAVAK wasn't a very nice bunch.

 

[MemphisVol77]

True except that they did deal with an authoritarian police state prior to the revolution. It's why they had the revolution. SAVAK wasn't a very nice bunch.

They traded a robber baron for a theocracy.

I wish the the U.S. could be strictly isolationist, but that's been proven to be implausible and a naive ideal since shortly after the advent of the industrial revolution.

Maybe we (the west) should have let Stalin occupy Iran uncontested post WW2. Maybe we (USA) should have stayed completely out and let Britain deal with it after Iran tried to default on their contracts and nationalize the oil industry.
I still say they were better off with the west having pressured Stalin out and allowing the Shah to be re-empowered. I still say they got a better deal due to our involvement than they would have had we let Britain deal with it alone.

Speaking pragmatically, we're closer to the laws of the cave than most like to admit. I think we're the lesser evil and I'm glad we've got the biggest stick.

 

[EasternVol]

View attachment 753297
They traded a robber baron for a theocracy.

I wish the the U.S. could be strictly isolationist, but that's been proven to be implausible and a naive ideal since shortly after the advent of the industrial revolution.

Maybe we (the west) should have let Stalin occupy Iran uncontested post WW2. Maybe we (USA) should have stayed completely out and let Britain deal with it after Iran tried to default on their contracts and nationalize the oil industry.
I still say they were better off with the west having pressured Stalin out and allowing the Shah to be re-empowered. I still say they got a better deal due to our involvement than they would have had we let Britain deal with it alone.

Speaking pragmatically, we're closer to the laws of the cave than most like to admit. I think we're the lesser evil and I'm glad we've got the biggest stick.

It looks like they were sick of the Shah and took a gamble on Khomeini, and we know how it turned out. Their options were pretty limited and nobody expected the Shah to stop oppressing people.
I wouldn't hold nationalizing the oil patch against them. BP's predecessor was getting a whole lot more out of it than Iran was, and a lot of such contracts from those days were very predatory.
What do you think would have happened if the Brits went it alone?

 

[Orange_Crush]

What they need is an Ayatollah of Rock 'n' Rolla.

 

[MemphisVol77]

It looks like they were sick of the Shah and took a gamble on Khomeini, and we know how it turned out. Their options were pretty limited and nobody expected the Shah to stop oppressing people.
I wouldn't hold nationalizing the oil patch against them. BP's predecessor was getting a whole lot more out of than Iran was, and a lot of such contracts from those days were very predatory.
What do you think would have happened if the Brits went it alone?

Iran would have ended up with even more sh!t on their end of the stick. I'm not saying Iran got a good deal due to our involvement, but the terms did improve. The Brits would have held them to the original terms at minimum and probably imposed penalties.

 

[EasternVol]

Iran would have ended up with even more sh!t on their end of the stick. I'm not saying Iran got a good deal due to our involvement, but the terms did improve. The Brits would have held them to the original terms at minimum and probably imposed penalties.

Would they have done that by following the same coup playbook and imposing it on the Shah as a condition of installing him, or...?

 

[SpaceCoastVol]

What they need is an Ayatollah of Rock 'n' Rolla.

 

[MemphisVol77]

Would they have done that by following the same coup playbook and imposing it on the Shah as a condition of installing him, or...?

By their actions in the Suez, I'm guessing the or......

 

[EasternVol]

By their actions in the Suez, I'm guessing the or......

They were pretty well spent after WWII. I don't think of a major military challenge they got into around that time, but I could be overlooking something. In the Suez they had coconspirators.

 

[MemphisVol77]

They were pretty well spent after WWII. I don't think of a major military challenge they got into around that time, but I could be overlooking something. In the Suez they had coconspirators.

I'm getting into pure speculation and conjecture here as I don't know how much of their GDP was comprised in oil.

If they lost access to the Suez, manufacturing and industry costs go up. Probably devastating, but not necessarily catastrophic. If they lost their oil access, would the cost of shipping matter?

Weren't a few of the 6 armies during the 47/48 Israeli war previously armored by Britain? The Israelis managed to hold them off before re-arming and overwhelming the Arab states with modern technology. I doubt (could be wrong) Iran had anything that could have held up to Britain. I think they were desperate enough they would have tried to go about it with a show of force if they'd had to go about it alone.

 

[StarRaider]

What they need is an Ayatollah of Rock 'n' Rolla.

too bad Rick Derringer passed a few weeks ago