Increase Class Size - Layoff Teachers

#101
#101
Peter Suderman claims that federal spending over the decades has resulted in no educational improvement. He says that this has cut the ratio of students:staff in half since the 1970s and we have nothing to show for it:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_Maqh2Pd7s&feature=plcp&context=C300cbf6UDOEgsToPDskJx_6LdNUfgfdiAJYctd6Xo[/youtube]
 
#103
#103
nbakerld said:
Peter Suderman claims that federal spending over the decades has resulted in no educational improvement. He says that this has cut the ratio of students:staff in half since the 1970s and we have nothing to show for it:
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Of course the archetypal Democrat solution of throwing money at the problem isn't going to work.

It's pretty simple in this case: Student:staff ratios have been cut in half, yet class sizes are expanding. So where is the extra staff going?
 
#104
#104
milohimself said:
Of course the archetypal Democrat solution of throwing money at the problem isn't going to work.

It's pretty simple in this case: Student:staff ratios have been cut in half, yet class sizes are expanding. So where is the extra staff going?
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I assume a lot of it goes to administration, and special programs like ESL. Have class sizes increased? I can't find data to support that. Here is data on pupils/teacher:

For public schools, the number of pupils per teacher—that is, the pupil/teacher ratio—declined from 22.3 in 1970 to 17.9 in 1985. After 1985, the public school pupil/teacher ratio continued to decline, reaching 17.2 in 1989. After a period of relative stability during the late 1980s through the mid-1990s, the ratio declined from 17.3 in 1995 to 16.0 in 2000. Decreases have continued since then, and the public school pupil/teacher ratio was 15.3 in 2008. By comparison, the pupil/teacher ratio for private schools was estimated at 13.1 in 2008. The average class size in 2007–08 was 20.0 pupils for public elementary schools and 23.4 pupils for public secondary schools.
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Fast Facts
 
#105
#105
Wasn't my experience. The mainstream classes I took were regularly 30-35, and I heard a segment on NPR this morning about a kid who dropped a French class at a local HS because there were 40 students, and another parent who put her kid in a particular private liberal arts school because the effective class sizes were around 14.

Those are obviously national figures, I think it would be more beneficial to look at a set of results district by district, or by state at the very least.
 
#106
#106
milohimself said:
I never said there weren't those kinds of people out there. I'm familiar with them. I've spent time in the offices of social workers, and done a term's worth of work with the sociology director at my university as part of my health studies education. I've talked to a number of people on various social benefits.

Hell, I'm actually on food stamps right now, because I've got a few terms left on my degree and the money I get left over from financial aid and supplemental income I get training and doing oil changes and brake jobs for my friends doesn't quite cut it on a month to month basis. That very program helps me feed myself. I also do a bit of vegetable gardening when it's seasonable to feed myself. But, food stamps helps me put food in my mouth.

What I am saying, is that every single experience I have had and every bit of research I have done write ups on (which now belong to Portland State University, I don't have them with me ATM) shows that social benefits is a fluid situation, that the vast majority of people on food stamps, TANF, etc. don't stay on it (although there is quite a bit of relapse after periods of up to a few years) and that people by and large don't want to be on social benefits forever.

Are there welfare queens out there? Yes. Are there people who game the system? Absolutely. Do those situations represent anything close to a majority of people on social benefits? Not even close, and I can provide any sort of empirical evidence you like that shows that is in fact the case.

PS, since you're in social work, the Dr. whom I did some work for has some excellent books on the subject. Look up Karen Seccombe on Amazon.
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For sure, I will check into her work.

I understand where you are coming from now, I suppose I misconstrued what you meant by that statement.

No argument here in terms of the vast majority of social recipients striving to find independence from government funded benefits... but as with all aspects of society the "lifers" are those who define and become the poster children for the average welfare recipient. This of course is not a fair assessment of the whole.. but it is a reflection of the way our society in general views FS, TANF, MEDICAID... or section 8 or any other government/state funded welfare program.

No offense Milo, you are obviously a well educated man.. but your semester term paper write ups do not carry much weight for me.. the views and opinions or general assumptions that I had when I was fresh faced out of college, changed immensely after having my "ass in the grass" for a couple of years. Not saying that they are not accurate by any stretch or even a fair refection of the state of welfare in the pac NW.. or the entire country for that matter.

Actually, since you mentioned it, your particular circumstances (along with many other justifiable circumstance) are exactly why the Department of Agriculture instituted Food Stamps why back when pre WWII days.. Most recently food stamps are now sexily termed "SNAP" (catchy, huh) which stands for supplemental nutritional assistance program...with the key word being "supplemental" which roughly translates as in addition to with what you already have, which in turn translates to meaning.. "don't depend on the government to take sole the responsibility of feeding your entire famity". That is my issue with FS, it is gravely abused.
 
#107
#107
Wasn't trying to e-piss about it, just saying that I've done some legwork on it, talked with recipients (hell, I am one) and workers. I just get miffed when people classify all beneficiaries as welfare queens and what have you.
 
#108
#108
milohimself said:
Wasn't trying to e-piss about it, just saying that I've done some legwork on it, talked with recipients (hell, I am one) and workers. I just get miffed when people classify all beneficiaries as welfare queens and what have you.
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No I get it man. It is a legitimate complain. Most of the people that form that assumption do not know d*** about beneficiaries other than what some cat at the local watering hole delivered loud and mightily from his ivory soap box. Like I said, it is vindictive of western civilization to make rash judgments on the outliers and subsequently skew the rest of the graph. Metaphorically speaking.
 
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#110
#110
Scotty's Flat Top said:
No I get it man. It is a legitimate complain. Most of the people that form that assumption do not know d*** about beneficiaries other than what some cat at the local watering hole delivered loud and mightily from his ivory soap box. Like I said, it is vindictive of western civilization to make rash judgments on the outliers and subsequently skew the rest of the graph. Metaphorically speaking.
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right. People love to bash social programs because of those that take advantage of them - but what percentage are we dealing with?
 
#111
#111
I'd say out of the the 1500 cases in my caseload.. somewhere around 60 to 80 of those are people who have been on benefits for over 5+ years w/o working in that period. The vast majority of the other case are those who recieve SSI/SSA or are working part-time or even full-time with families in dead end jobs that pay just enough to cover rent and utility cost at less than accomadating reservations so to speak
 
#112
#112
I guarantee you that there will be another program in place something like NCLB. I think my district is implementing something called Race to the Top. It's ridiculous.
 
#114
#114
I don't even care to honestly, I'm sure i'll hear more about it soon enough. Until the state of TN actually realizes that dog and pony shows aren't the fix for education, it won't matter what is put into place. All these policies look good on paper, but in reality they are unrealistic and don't actually help the teachers or students.
 
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#115
#115
lylsmorr said:
I don't even care to honestly, I'm sure i'll hear more about it soon enough. Until the state of TN actually realizes that dog and pony shows aren't the fix for education, it won't matter what is put into place. All these policies look good on paper, but in reality they are unrealistic and don't actually help the teachers or students.
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These policies don't even look good on paper
 
#116
#116
Scotty's Flat Top said:
These policies don't even look good on paper
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I mean they sound "ideal" and in a perfect world with students who come to class eager to learn, it might work. However, classrooms are now full of kids that have no desire to learn and have no discipline.
 
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#119
#119
lylsmorr said:
However, classrooms are now full of kids that have no desire to learn and have no discipline.
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Exactly, my girlfriend teaches high school in Rutherford county.. she has anywhere from 28 to 30+ students in each of her classes as well as having a sped assistant and still struggles to keep control and stay on topic in the limited time that they have to gauge in actual learning activities. It would be disasterous to increase the class size while eliminating her sped assistant and while the state emphasizes increasing student performance. Which is the ultimate determining factor of how she is evaluated. It sounds impossible. No one in their right mind should actually want to teach in the state of Tennessee right now.

Side topic, I actually heard that in Kentucky it is required for teachers to complete their masters in certain amount of time after their hire date.. which is a policy that I agree with.
 
#120
#120
my mom had classes of 30+ even in the early 90's. It's not a new problem

I say if you don't want to learn then you get put to work or learning a trade. Without an education we'll just get you started on the fryer early
 
#122
#122
utvolpj said:
my mom had classes of 30+ even in the early 90's. It's not a new problem

I say if you don't want to learn then you get put to work or learning a trade. Without an education we'll just get you started on the fryer early
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I agree it is not a new problem, but with 30 students in a classroom the teacher-to-student interaction is already low.. increasing the class size will just compound the issue.

I like the "work or learning a trade" statement. That would be grounds for a reform IMO. Let's face not every student has a prudent interest in gaining an education. This is where we should step up our vocational training and form plans that cater to certain students in certain situations i.e. welding, electrical, plumbing, and so on and so on. Gain a good base for interest in trade that could inherently lead to a career in skilled labor and open doors of interest that would other wise been closed.

No two students are alike, if anything we need more teachers to interact to gauge students personalities, traits, and interest to form personalized (to an extent) educational practices that would take them farther in life than some standard that some politician believes that they should model their education by.. just my sporadic thoughts
 
#123
#123
I've been a fan of the vocational/college split since I learned about the German system years ago. The country needs those kinds of workers and getting a jump on an apprenticeship could do wonders for their career. Even if you want to own your own business you have to learn the trade sometime.
 
#124
#124
I know when I was high school, we had a major emphasis on vocation and agricultural classes. However, I was at a small rural high school and our student base could relate to these trades. We had access to welders, tools, saws, sanders, and my ag teacher would actually have us do maintenance on school property. He even let us use the shop to work on our vehicles during class hours as a learning tool. It wasn't for everyone but the shop rats of class took right too it. They have businesses of their own, and when I need repairs I go to them first, as do many of our former classmates. So not only is a great learning tool but a great marketing and networking tool. Fast forward ten years, and the program barely exists. The programs have been cut to put more emphasis on core studies.. it is a shame. Education should be catered and personal not mass fed. All the more reason why the efforts of Haslem are misdirected
 
#125
#125
utvolpj said:
I've been a fan of the vocational/college split since I learned about the German system years ago. The country needs those kinds of workers and getting a jump on an apprenticeship could do wonders for their career. Even if you want to own your own business you have to learn the trade sometime.
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I believe they do that in France as well. College isn't for everybody. That's not mean or elitist, that's reality.
 
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