In state talent

[Daloth]

I've lived in TN my entire life (with a few exceptions up north for work) but I started football at 6 years old and still play it to this day in college. It's not that places don't get started early enough, because I know all over East TN at least they have leagues for kids.

 

[pimo1]

Not sure what you mean by "Cranking out talent have money behind their programs and communities", but if you are referring to just educational spending, you are way off.

There is no correlation when it comes to quality of football recruits to educational spending, measured per capita or per student.

Per capita, none of the big 3 recruiting states - California, Florida and Texas - are in the top 15 per capita spending.

Texas is middle of the pack. Florida is 48 and Tenessee is 50. So the big three occupy slots 16, 26 and 48. That kind of spread shows there is no correlation between per capita spending and their high school talentn.

Spending per student also has nothing to do with it. Here is an analysis adjusted for regional costs.
Notice that Tennessee spends more per student adjusted for regional costs that Texas and California, but all three are are in the bottom six.

Like many issues, money doesn't fix high school football talent. Even if it did, it would be a TERRIBLE goal for spending tax dollars to produce better football players.

Looking at per capita numbers is a waste of time. 1 stadium costs x amount of money. Even if Tennessee puts 1 dollar per capita a state with 3 times our population can spend 50 cents per capita and still build more. Look at total expenditure. I would dare to bet the Educational expenditures of Texas and California especially is more than the whole state budget of TN especially in the case of Cali I would hazard to guess they probably spend more on athletics alone than we spend on Educational in total.

Secondly this is about the infrastructure needed to put out players. Yes education spending helps but in a lot of these other states the programs are supported by private money. There are schools in some of these states with boosters putting a lot of money into these schools.. Thats not really the case here. People don't invest here into the community the same way at least not as far as sports go. I am not saying thats a good thing or a bad thing just what it is.

 

[pimo1]

I've lived in TN my entire life (with a few exceptions up north for work) but I started football at 6 years old and still play it to this day in college. It's not that places don't get started early enough, because I know all over East TN at least they have leagues for kids.

Not in the places where the talent is.... and just because they have leagues does not mean they are good ones. How many D1 players came from these league you speak of? Honestly the whole peewee league thing does play a small part but if there are not middle and high school programs to develop them there is not going to be anything coming out the other end.This is true not only for football but basketball also.

I think one big thing that hurts the state is geography. TN is a very long and thin state and pretty much all the people live on the edges bordering other states. because of this TN is really like 3 different states. West Middle and East and then you have the vacuum in between the 4 major cities. People in Memphis have more in common with people from Arkansas or Mississippi than those in Knoxville. Nashville only has Clarksville between it and Kentucky.. Chattanooga borders Alabama and Georgia hell parts of Chattanooga are IN Georgia. Culturally all the cities here really have less in common with each other for the most part than their neighboring states. Knoxville is the lone exception being landlocked.

This has a bigger effect on this whole equation than a lot of people might think. We don't really have a center like most states do. Something to give the whole state an identity and lead the way. Instead everyone is off doing their own thing and working against each other. seriously I could take someone and randomly drop them off in Chattanooga, Nashville, Memphis and Knoxville and you would have a hard time convincing them they were in the same state.

I am from Chattanooga born and bred and spend most weekends in Knoxville. Growing up and even today I know more UGA and UA fans than UT fans and that is sad to me.

 

[pimo1]

SC has 4.561 million people of which 28.2% are black. LA has 4.492 million of which 32.1% are black. MS has 2.951 million of which 37.2% are black. Since we are talking about producing top talent, in 2011 and 2010 there were 26 5 star players of those 26 two kids were white. I am not trying to turn this into a race debate or anything, but you can not deny facts. In order for a state to produce major college athletes on a regular basis, they need a large population of black people, and TN simply does not have that.

Guess what two states in the SEC have the lowest percentage of blacks? If you said TN and KY you win. Also notice all those states have lower populations than us by a lot and still produce more D1 athletes by far.

 

[TUSKtimes]

Guess what two states in the SEC have the lowest percentage of blacks? If you said TN and KY you win. Also notice all those states have lower populations than us by a lot and still produce more D1 athletes by far.

Bingo, that's a winner.

I'm guessing general Neyland had plenty of Tennessee boys on all those great vol teams of yesteryear.

 

[Vol8188]

You guys are missing the fact that 80% or greater of the 5 star recruits never pan out. You have to find talent that you have a legit chance of getting number 1. You are wasting your time on the guy who wanted to be a dog or longhorn all his life an the ones who go to a school because they can play early are usually divas who got spoon fed in jr pro and high school. Number 2 what TN lacks is the kid who grows up wanting to be a Vol all of his life. TN is a melting pot of everyone from everywhere. Kids in TN these days grow up becoming a fan and watching where daddy grew up. Majority of the time that is not TN.

Below is a list of the top fifteen players from 2006 and 2007. I didn't feel like making the list any longer or going back any farther, and the 2008 and 2009 guys haven't had enough time to prove themselves. With all that said, only 6 of these 30 players would I label as busts. So by saying that 80% of them do not pan out, you were completely wrong. 80% is the exact number that had great careers. Recruiting may not be an exact science, but the major recruiting services do very well. The majority of the players who didn't "pan out" were due to injuries or off the field issues. Since recruiting services are only looking at an athlete’s overall talent, they cannot be blamed if a kid doesn't make the grades or gets kicked off a team for legal issues.

2006 rivals top fifteen
1. Percy harvin. Have you heard that name? 1st round pick
2. Andre Smith. Dominate offensive tackle at Alabama and first round pick.
3. Chris Wells. One of the best backs in college football and another first round pick.
4. Gerald McCoy. Dominate defensive tackle at Oklahoma and another first round pick.
5. Sergio Kindle. One of the best pass rushers in college football, I believe he slipped to the second round.
6. Matthew Stafford. Number one overall pick.
7. Vidal Hazelton. Lead USC in with 50 receptions in 07. Transferred to Cincinnati after an injury plagued 08. Never really made a comeback. Bust.
8. C.J. Spiller. First round pick. I believe in the top ten.
9. Allen Bradford. Showed promise early on at USC but was rarely used because they had 2 other 5 star running backs. Then missed out on 08 due to season ending hip surgery. 09 he ran for 668 yards and 5.6 a carry while backing up5 star back Marc Tyler.
10. Mitch Mustain. BUST
11. Sam Young. Great offensive tackle, I believe he was taken in the third round of the draft.
12. Myron Rolle. Great talent who gave up football because of a Rhodes Scholarship. Hard to label as a bust because I think he could have been great, but will anyway.
13. Brandon Spikes. Great LB at FL, had 61 tackles in rookie season at New England.
14. Reshad Jones. Led Georgia with 4 int’s and second on the team with 73 tackles as a junior and entered the draft.
15. Brandon Graham. Great pass rusher at Michigan and a 1st round pick.
2007 rivals top fifteen
1. Jimmy Clausen. One of the best college QB’s as a Senior and a 2nd round pick. Threw for 3700 yards as a junior and 3200 as a soph.
2. Joe Mcknight-1000yrds SR yr, 600 JR 7.2 ypc. split time jr year with another 5 star back.
3. Eric Berry. I think you know how that went
4. Ryan Mallet. Expected to be a second round pick last time I looked. Threw for 3,300 yards 33 td’s and only 3 interceptions as a Senior.
5. Carlos Dunlap. A great college lineman who was expected to be a first round pick before a DUI charge knocked him back into the 2nd or 3rd round.
6. Everson Griffen. Started for USC as a true freshman on a very talented defense and the first true freshman to start for USC on defense in 21 seasons.
7. Marvin Austin. Got kicked off at UNC but Is expected to be a 1st or 2nd round draft pick anyway.
8. Ronald Johnson. Ranks 13th in USC’s career kickoff return chart. Broke collar bone in 2009. Second on the team in receiving last year, behind a 5 star freshman.
9. Torrey Davis. Couldn’t make the grades and left Florida. Bust.
10. Josh Oglesby. Had a major knee injury and may not be drafted, but was a great tackle for Wisconsin and was on the outland trophy watchlist before his injury.
11. Chris Galippo. Bust, but I believe he may have another year to turn it around.
12. James Wilson. Plagued by multiple knee injuries, but will call him a bust.
13. Terrance Toliver. Led LSU with 41 receptions last year despite god awful qb play. Will probably be a 4th round draft pick.
14. Chad Johnson. Sr year had 138 tackles 12 int’s and 400 rushing yards.
15. Noel Devine. Ran for over 4000 yards at WV.

 

[Vol8188]

Not in the places where the talent is.... and just because they have leagues does not mean they are good ones. How many D1 players came from these league you speak of? Honestly the whole peewee league thing does play a small part but if there are not middle and high school programs to develop them there is not going to be anything coming out the other end.This is true not only for football but basketball also.

I think one big thing that hurts the state is geography. TN is a very long and thin state and pretty much all the people live on the edges bordering other states. because of this TN is really like 3 different states. West Middle and East and then you have the vacuum in between the 4 major cities. People in Memphis have more in common with people from Arkansas or Mississippi than those in Knoxville. Nashville only has Clarksville between it and Kentucky.. Chattanooga borders Alabama and Georgia hell parts of Chattanooga are IN Georgia. Culturally all the cities here really have less in common with each other for the most part than their neighboring states. Knoxville is the lone exception being landlocked.

This has a bigger effect on this whole equation than a lot of people might think. We don't really have a center like most states do. Something to give the whole state an identity and lead the way. Instead everyone is off doing their own thing and working against each other. seriously I could take someone and randomly drop them off in Chattanooga, Nashville, Memphis and Knoxville and you would have a hard time convincing them they were in the same state.

I am from Chattanooga born and bred and spend most weekends in Knoxville. Growing up and even today I know more UGA and UA fans than UT fans and that is sad to me.

Great post.

 

[WillisWG]

TSSAA needs to expand their role to include football clinics for coaches and players

 

[glhal2814]

Looking at per capita numbers is a waste of time. 1 stadium costs x amount of money. Even if Tennessee puts 1 dollar per capita a state with 3 times our population can spend 50 cents per capita and still build more. Look at total expenditure. I would dare to bet the Educational expenditures of Texas and California especially is more than the whole state budget of TN especially in the case of Cali I would hazard to guess they probably spend more on athletics alone than we spend on Educational in total.

You've compeltely negelected the fact that they've built 1.5 times the facitities for 3 times the population. Each person got half as much, but you are arguing they came out ahead of the group that got double the resources.

That's the whole point of per captia or per student educational comparisons. That's why those two figures are used in any credible analysis of state by educational spending. Because they matter more than total expenditures.

You are completely misinformed if you think otherwise.

Secondly this is about the infrastructure needed to put out players. Yes education spending helps but in a lot of these other states the programs are supported by private money. There are schools in some of these states with boosters putting a lot of money into these schools.. Thats not really the case here. People don't invest here into the community the same way at least not as far as sports go. I am not saying thats a good thing or a bad thing just what it is.

First off, do you have any data to back that up?

Second, if the infrastructure quality had anything to do with it a higher proportion of NCAA starters would be from rich suburbs than rural areas and inner cities, and the proportion of players who made it into the NFL from Louisiana would be lower than those from Vermont. Do you think that is the case?

 

[ToineMac]

Everything football wise is pretty much secondary out west. Coaching, emphasis, facilities everything is secondary to hoops. I'm from Hardeman county which is south west TN. there are city leagues for hoops in Kindergarten. No football until 6th grade for the most part. No weight lifting until high school. Southwest TN is where the highest concentration of black people is. I think thats part of the problem.
Posted via VolNation Mobile

 

[bosgap]

there are more talent that dont play highschool football than those who do for whatever reason,i was told that if i played football that i would play in collage.but i picked basketball because no matter how good i was one person couldnt make a difference when only a dozen or so could bench 200 pounds or more cause they never saw a set of weights,l had a set at age 10 my first time in weight room at school the football coach ask me to lift and i put 225 on bar and he said i was trying to much but i benched it nine times ,it was start of sophmore year ,by start of senior year i was benching more than most of ut current players.i benched 345 five times and maxed out close to 400 ,ran a 4.56 forty at 5,10 and 180 pounds.that is why i regret not playing football i thought no one would ever notice me on a team that was 9 and 31 my four years in school.
Posted via VolNation Mobile

 

[Vol8188]

there are more talent that dont play highschool football than those who do for whatever reason,i was told that if i played football that i would play in collage.but i picked basketball because no matter how good i was one person couldnt make a difference when only a dozen or so could bench 200 pounds or more cause they never saw a set of weights,l had a set at age 10 my first time in weight room at school the football coach ask me to lift and i put 225 on bar and he said i was trying to much but i benched it nine times ,it was start of sophmore year ,by start of senior year i was benching more than most of ut current players.i benched 345 five times and maxed out close to 400 ,ran a 4.56 forty at 5,10 and 180 pounds.that is why i regret not playing football i thought no one would ever notice me on a team that was 9 and 31 my four years in school.
Posted via VolNation Mobile

He also breathes fire, and is bigger than John Holmes.

 

[sjt18]

SC has 4.561 million people of which 28.2% are black. LA has 4.492 million of which 32.1% are black. MS has 2.951 million of which 37.2% are black. Since we are talking about producing top talent, in 2011 and 2010 there were 26 5 star players of those 26 two kids were white. I am not trying to turn this into a race debate or anything, but you can not deny facts. In order for a state to produce major college athletes on a regular basis, they need a large population of black people, and TN simply does not have that.

Tn isn't far behind MS or SC in raw numbers. If you look simply at the number of black residents, Tn still produces disproportionately few blue chip football players. Point is, the quality of coaching, facilities, and play is a much larger factor than demographics.

 

[TNBIGO]

Below is a list of the top fifteen players from 2006 and 2007. I didn't feel like making the list any longer or going back any farther, and the 2008 and 2009 guys haven't had enough time to prove themselves. With all that said, only 6 of these 30 players would I label as busts. So by saying that 80% of them do not pan out, you were completely wrong. 80% is the exact number that had great careers. Recruiting may not be an exact science, but the major recruiting services do very well. The majority of the players who didn't "pan out" were due to injuries or off the field issues. Since recruiting services are only looking at an athlete’s overall talent, they cannot be blamed if a kid doesn't make the grades or gets kicked off a team for legal reasons

2006 rivals top fifteen
1. Percy harvin. Have you heard that name? 1st round pick
2. Andre Smith. Dominate offensive tackle at Alabama and first round pick.
3. Chris Wells. One of the best backs in college football and another first round pick.
4. Gerald McCoy. Dominate defensive tackle at Oklahoma and another first round pick.
5. Sergio Kindle. One of the best pass rushers in college football, I believe he slipped to the second round.
6. Matthew Stafford. Number one overall pick.
7. Vidal Hazelton. Lead USC in with 50 receptions in 07. Transferred to Cincinnati after an injury plagued 08. Never really made a comeback. Bust.
8. C.J. Spiller. First round pick. I believe in the top ten.
9. Allen Bradford. Showed promise early on at USC but was rarely used because they had 2 other 5 star running backs. Then missed out on 08 due to season ending hip surgery. 09 he ran for 668 yards and 5.6 a carry while backing up5 star back Marc Tyler.
10. Mitch Mustain. BUST
11. Sam Young. Great offensive tackle, I believe he was taken in the third round of the draft.
12. Myron Rolle. Great talent who gave up football because of a Rhodes Scholarship. Hard to label as a bust because I think he could have been great, but will anyway.
13. Brandon Spikes. Great LB at FL, had 61 tackles in rookie season at New England.
14. Reshad Jones. Led Georgia with 4 int’s and second on the team with 73 tackles as a junior and entered the draft.
15. Brandon Graham. Great pass rusher at Michigan and a 1st round pick.
2007 rivals top fifteen
1. Jimmy Clausen. One of the best college QB’s as a Senior and a 2nd round pick. Threw for 3700 yards as a junior and 3200 as a soph.
2. Joe Mcknight-1000yrds SR yr, 600 JR 7.2 ypc. split time jr year with another 5 star back.
3. Eric Berry. I think you know how that went
4. Ryan Mallet. Expected to be a second round pick last time I looked. Threw for 3,300 yards 33 td’s and only 3 interceptions as a Senior.
5. Carlos Dunlap. A great college lineman who was expected to be a first round pick before a DUI charge knocked him back into the 2nd or 3rd round.
6. Everson Griffen. Started for USC as a true freshman on a very talented defense and the first true freshman to start for USC on defense in 21 seasons.
7. Marvin Austin. Got kicked off at UNC but Is expected to be a 1st or 2nd round draft pick anyway.
8. Ronald Johnson. Ranks 13th in USC’s career kickoff return chart. Broke collar bone in 2009. Second on the team in receiving last year, behind a 5 star freshman.
9. Torrey Davis. Couldn’t make the grades and left Florida. Bust.
10. Josh Oglesby. Had a major knee injury and may not be drafted, but was a great tackle for Wisconsin and was on the outland trophy watchlist before his injury.
11. Chris Galippo. Bust, but I believe he may have another year to turn it around.
12. James Wilson. Plagued by multiple knee injuries, but will call him a bust.
13. Terrance Toliver. Led LSU with 41 receptions last year despite god awful qb play. Will probably be a 4th round draft pick.
14. Chad Johnson. Sr year had 138 tackles 12 int’s and 400 rushing yards.
15. Noel Devine. Ran for over 4000 yards at WV.

Man you wasted a lot of time typing out your personal views on players. You should be a little more accurate in your posts. What you left out however is that your "list" from 2006 didnt include all the 5 stars that went all the way to #26. The only two who made noise from #15 -#26 was Tebow and Johnson. So after you add your 4 busts from 1-15 and the 14 busts after that my number is a lot more accurate than yours. We wont even get into all the 4 stars. Its a bust if your sitting the bench not helping your team because you are scrub no matter what your talent level is. In 2007 with your 5 busts 1-15 simply add in the 5 stars that went as far as #29. You had 3 from 15-29 that did anything ( benn, taylor, newton) Newton played 1 year. A lot of good he did Florida! Thats 16 out of 29. You do the math and again we will not even go into the 4 stars. If we did my 80% is a lot more accurate than the half information you provided.

 

[shake-N-bakeum]

JMO TN being land locked may have some sort of impact... I call it the salt water effect... States that produce great athletes do have beaches... :ermm:

 

[midstate]

Geography also plays a large part in the problem. UA, Ole Miss, Mississippi State, and Arkansas are a heckuva lot closer to Memphis than UT is. Also, Nashville is full of Alabama refugees due to the Alabama economy (I know, I am one). With that comes Alabama and Auburn fans, and they have begun to play a big role in influencing HS kids over the past 20 years.

 

[saxvol]

SC has 4.561 million people of which 28.2% are black. LA has 4.492 million of which 32.1% are black. MS has 2.951 million of which 37.2% are black. Since we are talking about producing top talent, in 2011 and 2010 there were 26 5 star players of those 26 two kids were white. I am not trying to turn this into a race debate or anything, but you can not deny facts. In order for a state to produce major college athletes on a regular basis, they need a large population of black people, and TN simply does not have that.

Also keep in mind that 1/2 of the black population in Tn. lives in Memphis/Shelby co. Thats a long way from Knoxville.

 

[strongtower]

The Titans have been here since 98....Their kids aught to be hitt'n highschool soon.

Yep but unfortunately bud is cheap and won't keep franchise players so that philosophy is null and void.

 

[strongtower]

Not in the places where the talent is.... and just because they have leagues does not mean they are good ones. How many D1 players came from these league you speak of? Honestly the whole peewee league thing does play a small part but if there are not middle and high school programs to develop them there is not going to be anything coming out the other end.This is true not only for football but basketball also.

I think one big thing that hurts the state is geography. TN is a very long and thin state and pretty much all the people live on the edges bordering other states. because of this TN is really like 3 different states. West Middle and East and then you have the vacuum in between the 4 major cities. People in Memphis have more in common with people from Arkansas or Mississippi than those in Knoxville. Nashville only has Clarksville between it and Kentucky.. Chattanooga borders Alabama and Georgia hell parts of Chattanooga are IN Georgia. Culturally all the cities here really have less in common with each other for the most part than their neighboring states. Knoxville is the lone exception being landlocked.

This has a bigger effect on this whole equation than a lot of people might think. We don't really have a center like most states do. Something to give the whole state an identity and lead the way. Instead everyone is off doing their own thing and working against each other. seriously I could take someone and randomly drop them off in Chattanooga, Nashville, Memphis and Knoxville and you would have a hard time convincing them they were in the same state.

I am from Chattanooga born and bred and spend most weekends in Knoxville. Growing up and even today I know more UGA and UA fans than UT fans and that is sad to me.

I agree mostly but will add I live in nashville and UT has it on lockdown. Most kids here dream of wearing the big orange we respect vandy and other universities but orange reigns here.

 

[volfan2024]

The population in the states of California and Texas is close to representing the population of all SEC Schools combined.

 

[Vol8188]

Man you wasted a lot of time typing out your personal views on players. You should be a little more accurate in your posts. What you left out however is that your "list" from 2006 didnt include all the 5 stars that went all the way to #26. The only two who made noise from #15 -#26 was Tebow and Johnson. So after you add your 4 busts from 1-15 and the 14 busts after that my number is a lot more accurate than yours. We wont even get into all the 4 stars. Its a bust if your sitting the bench not helping your team because you are scrub no matter what your talent level is. In 2007 with your 5 busts 1-15 simply add in the 5 stars that went as far as #29. You had 3 from 15-29 that did anything ( benn, taylor, newton) Newton played 1 year. A lot of good he did Florida! Thats 16 out of 29. You do the math and again we will not even go into the 4 stars. If we did my 80% is a lot more accurate than the half information you provided.

So Taylor Mays at number 16 made no noise in 2006? Donovan Warren started as true freshman and led Michigan in interceptions as a junior before entering the draft. Kiper had Warren as a second round pick before he injured his ankle and only ran a 4.59 forty. And as for your "a lot of good he did Florida!" comment, we are talking about a player being a bust not transferring. He may have transferred but he was in no way a bust. And I don't know how far you made it in school, but 16 out of 29 is nowhere near 80%.

 

[TNBIGO]

So Taylor Mays at number 16 made no noise in 2006? Donovan Warren started as true freshman and led Michigan in interceptions as a junior before entering the draft. Kiper had Warren as a second round pick before he injured his ankle and only ran a 4.59 forty. And as for your "a lot of good he did Florida!" comment, we are talking about a player being a bust not transferring. He may have transferred but he was in no way a bust. And I don't know how far you made it in school, but 16 out of 29 is nowhere near 80%.

Vol8188 i was generalizing. I was not trying to throw around who gives a crap stats an personal opinions like you. My number is a lot closer than yours and in the overall scheme of things is understandable. You can twist numbers anyway you want to like you are a car salesman if that makes you feel better. Type all the facts before you post like you are an ESPN stat grabber for the sports shows for a living. I would consider Newton being a bust for Florida since they are the ones who got him to sign and wasted a spot on him for nothing.

 

[Vol8188]

Vol8188 i was generalizing. I was not trying to throw around who gives a crap stats an personal opinions like you. My number is a lot closer than yours and in the overall scheme of things is understandable. You can twist numbers anyway you want to like you are a car salesman if that makes you feel better. Type all the facts before you post like you are an ESPN stat grabber for the sports shows for a living. I would consider Newton being a bust for Florida since they are the ones who got him to sign and wasted a spot on him for nothing.

Regardless of stats you really don't think Taylor Mays made any noise? And as for Newton, if they didn't have Brantley and Tebow they wouldn't have suspended him for the season and he would have remained a Gator.

 

[TNBIGO]

Regardless of stats you really don't think Taylor Mays made any noise? And as for Newton, if they didn't have Brantley and Tebow they wouldn't have suspended him for the season and he would have remained a Gator.

Taylor Mays was good no doubt. Any safety can make an impact with the front line that USC rolled out during that time. Dont you think? Newton still did not do a single thing for Florida. It was a wasted spot and time spent recruting him. Someone who is so dumb he steals and cheats with all that talent is a bust. Character plays into leadership and his one year wonder is over. He will be a Titanic failure in the NFL. Book it!

 

[milohimself]

The population in the states of California and Texas is close to representing the population of all SEC Schools combined.

Not as relevant given the black populations of LA, MS, AL and FL. More than enough to provide starting talent for two and change (SEC, ACC, Big East) conferences.