If we go 8-4?

[sjt18]

I don't think that a loss to Ark would bring into question a concern on the coaching ability of CBJ. What I see is the Ark game setting up as the perfect trap game after Fl and before Ga.

A loss to Arkansas and especially at home would be a bad loss for Jones. Arkansas and Bielema are getting a ton of hype with many thinking his coaching performance has already bested Jones'. It is HUGE winnable game...

 

[sjt18]

Shhh.
I love it when they go at it.

Me too...

 

[sjt18]

:question: Gotta ask ya ............... With your vast knowledge of all things concerning UT football and the NCAA as a whole, why are you wasting your time and energy arguing with the posters on this board? You obviously have the knowledge/temperament to parlay that expertise into a radio call-in show with Danny Kanell and Paul Finebaum!!! Why limit yourself to just this Forum? :question:

Now. Stand in front of a mirror and repeat these exact words to the person you see there. To "judge" someone's "vast knowledge"... you pretty much have to assume you have an even more "vast knowledge"... or else you are speaking from your 4th point of contact.

 

[sjt18]

whatever dude.

Apparently you have a history with MedicT ??? I was talking about sjt18. Not sure wth you are talking about.eace2:

Yes. We both have a history with MedicT that goes back several months.

After you and I leave this thread, I will be no less or more inclined to agree or disagree with you than when we entered it. MedicT on the other hand doesn't seem to have the capacity to see disagreements here as isolated events. He cultivates imaginary phantoms that he associates with the screen names here and then filters what he reads through his assumptions.

I have neither the time nor the desire to go back to our first run in but I believe it was when Hendrix first announced he was leaving. I pointed to some facts and then fleshed out some of the implications if trends didn't change. Some people just can't accept facts that don't say "Butch is definitely the MAN".

 

[mmoosem]

Yes. We both have a history with MedicT that goes back several months.

After you and I leave this thread, I will be no less or more inclined to agree or disagree with you than when we entered it. MedicT on the other hand doesn't seem to have the capacity to see disagreements here as isolated events. He cultivates imaginary phantoms that he associates with the screen names here and then filters what he reads through his assumptions.

I have neither the time nor the desire to go back to our first run in but I believe it was when Hendrix first announced he was leaving. I pointed to some facts and then fleshed out some of the implications if trends didn't change. Some people just can't accept facts that don't say "Butch is definitely the MAN".

I have no issues with you and I, or anyone else and myself disagreeing on anything. :good!: The only issue I have is when someone keeps thumping their opinion and tries to act like their opinion is the only one that matters in the discussion.
:hi:

 

[sjt18]

I have no issues with you and I, or anyone else and myself disagreeing on anything. :good!: The only issue I have is when someone keeps thumping their opinion and tries to act like their opinion is the only one that matters in the discussion.
:hi:

In the heat of battle it may come across that way when I argue in favor of something and against something else. I take an "iron sharpens iron" approach that some folks don't do well with. I would sincerely rather have someone show me I'm wrong than to have them accept my opinion when it is wrong or unreasonable.

I sincerely respect the right of others to hold different opinions... I just challenge them in part to determine if theirs is better than mine.

Not bragging but I'm one of the few people here (that I've seen in the last 10 years) who has made public acknowledgement after being proven wrong on something. Most will either deny they were wrong, change their screen name, or leave.

Hope we can have many good interactions here.

 

[chuckb1448]

A step forward is always welcomed, and 8-4 would be just that. I am like most here and expect at least that if not slightly better. For some reason the Razorbacks concerns me, and Florida, geez.... I have almost gave up on that one. Honestly.. and I am about to be berated with hatred (I can take it) I am still concerned about our QB position. I know everyone is high on Dobbs, and I am not saying he did not do well, but we need an occasional pass beyond 7 yards. I hope he steps up for the Vols. By way, the O-line performed well for Dobbs so we can't say the lack of completions were their fault.

 

[mmoosem]

In the heat of battle it may come across that way when I argue in favor of something and against something else. I take an "iron sharpens iron" approach that some folks don't do well with. I would sincerely rather have someone show me I'm wrong than to have them accept my opinion when it is wrong or unreasonable.

I sincerely respect the right of others to hold different opinions... I just challenge them in part to determine if theirs is better than mine.

Not bragging but I'm one of the few people here (that I've seen in the last 10 years) who has made public acknowledgement after being proven wrong on something. Most will either deny they were wrong, change their screen name, or leave.

Hope we can have many good interactions here.

:hi:

 

[VFL-82-JP]

By way, the O-line performed well for Dobbs so we can't say the lack of completions were their fault.

It is interesting that you say that. On another thread, I mentioned that Dobbs seemed hesitant and unsettled in the Mizzou game. Someone (sorry, forgot who) responded that Dobbs would've been fine if the Mizzou defense hadn't been all over him all game (which by necessity implicates our OLine's protection).

So I went back and studied the first half of the game yesterday. Spent about 4 hours, just on the first half, fast forwarding through our defense and just focusing on our O.

I took notes, but didn't keep them overnight ... so apologies if my memory is off on some points. But here's what I saw.

Dobbs was hesitant, didn't seem nearly as confident as he had in the previous games -- not even as confident as he'd been against 'Bama, which was not only a harder opponent (#20 defense vs. Mizzou's #41 defense), but was Dobb's first game of the year.

Not counting the final drive of the half (which was just a couple of handoffs to Hurd to run the last minute off the clock), there were about 28 offensive plays. Dobbs was only sacked in two of them, and was only pressured in a few more. He was largely well-protected in the first half, but still looked tight. [oh, btw, the first sack was a coverage sack ... Dobbs held the ball too long looking for receivers, 6 or 7 seconds, should probably have thrown it away after going through his progression and finding nothing]

He did complete the majority of his pass plays, but they were almost all screens out to the flat, often to Hurd. I think he only attempted four or five passes down field, and only one was complete (6 yards to either Pig or Von).

He also made bad calls on a couple of option reads, one where he kept but should've given the ball to Hurd, and the other where he handed off to Hurd but should've kept it (amazingly, Hurd turned the latter into a five yard gain when he should've been tackled behind the line of scrimmage).

So after watching that first half again, I think you are largely right (and I was right in my initial impression). There were a few plays where the OLine let the D through quickly, but that's gonna happen from time to time against the better defenses in the conference.


p.s. Don't get me wrong, I like Josh, think he has tons of upside, and think he generally played very well last year. Mizzou (and Vandy) just weren't two of his better games.

p.p.s. I'll go back and study the 2nd half of the game today or tomorrow...it may be that the OLine completely failed Josh then, as others have said.

 

[MedicT]

Some would simply call it developing composure. It really isn't that complicated.

 

[chuckb1448]

It is interesting that you say that. On another thread, I mentioned that Dobbs seemed hesitant and unsettled in the Mizzou game. Someone (sorry, forgot who) responded that Dobbs would've been fine if the Mizzou defense hadn't been all over him all game (which by necessity implicates our OLine's protection).

So I went back and studied the first half of the game yesterday. Spent about 4 hours, just on the first half, fast forwarding through our defense and just focusing on our O.

I took notes, but didn't keep them overnight ... so apologies if my memory is off on some points. But here's what I saw.

Dobbs was hesitant, didn't seem nearly as confident as he had in the previous games -- not even as confident as he'd been against 'Bama, which was not only a harder opponent (#20 defense vs. Mizzou's #41 defense), but was Dobb's first game of the year.

Not counting the final drive of the half (which was just a couple of handoffs to Hurd to run the last minute off the clock), there were about 28 offensive plays. Dobbs was only sacked in two of them, and was only pressured in a few more. He was largely well-protected in the first half, but still looked tight. [oh, btw, the first sack was a coverage sack ... Dobbs held the ball too long looking for receivers, 6 or 7 seconds, should probably have thrown it away after going through his progression and finding nothing]

He did complete the majority of his pass plays, but they were almost all screens out to the flat, often to Hurd. I think he only attempted four or five passes down field, and only one was complete (6 yards to either Pig or Von).

He also made bad calls on a couple of option reads, one where he kept but should've given the ball to Hurd, and the other where he handed off to Hurd but should've kept it (amazingly, Hurd turned the latter into a five yard gain when he should've been tackled behind the line of scrimmage).

So after watching that first half again, I think you are largely right (and I was right in my initial impression). There were a few plays where the OLine let the D through quickly, but that's gonna happen from time to time against the better defenses in the conference.


p.s. Don't get me wrong, I like Josh, think he has tons of upside, and think he generally played very well last year. Mizzou (and Vandy) just weren't two of his better games.

p.p.s. I'll go back and study the 2nd half of the game today or tomorrow...it may be that the OLine completely failed Josh then, as others have said.

Thanks for the post, I believe you made a good observation. I will say again that I am not bashing Dobbs at all, (not insinuating you are either) I am saying as an Offense.. we need to be able to put up an occasional pass play beyond 7 yards. I believe it will be astoundingly beneficial for our run game if the defense thinks we may toss it over their heads.

and... here is the wiener/pepper WOOHOO!!

Go Vols!:clapping::dance2:epper:

 

[VFL-82-JP]

Some would simply call it developing composure. It really isn't that complicated.

The timing is wrong for the word "developing". That implies progress as time goes on. Josh began with surprising composure vs 'Bama, then continued vs SC and KY. Then his composure got worse vs Mizzou and Vandy, before bouncing back after a month break, vs Iowa.

So a little more complicated than the word "developing" can capture.

 

[MedicT]

The timing is wrong for the word "developing". That implies progress as time goes on. Josh began with surprising composure vs 'Bama, then continued vs SC and KY. Then his composure got worse vs Mizzou and Vandy, before bouncing back after a month break, vs Iowa.

So a little more complicated than the word "developing" can capture.

Unless this isn't a perfect world with nice, neat, linear progression, I suppose you are right.:dunno:

 

[chargervol]

If we go 8-4 how upset/happy will the fan base be? I think that 8-4 will be a pretty solid season! I would be real happy with that. Just curious what everybody wants/expects.

Truth is, 8 is a solid season.
Historically, since our first pro. coach in 1899, we have only hit the = of 8 wins (.667), around 66 times.
More than 8 (.667)? Something like 52 times in well over 100 years.

I know that's hard to believe with all the "we are UT" stuff but it's true. You don't even want to know what our record would be without Neyland and - the much hated - Fulmer padding those stats.

With all that said, we are still something like the 11th winningest program in history. Which is just further proof that wins are much harder to attain than some on here admit. Fans of half the teams that we are saying "No excuse to lose to that team", say the same about us.

Still, make no mistake, if you keep bringing in top 5 talent, there is no reason not to end up being a top 5 team!

 

[KBVol]

Thanks for the post, I believe you made a good observation. I will say again that I am not bashing Dobbs at all, (not insinuating you are either) I am saying as an Offense.. we need to be able to put up an occasional pass play beyond 7 yards. I believe it will be astoundingly beneficial for our run game if the defense thinks we may toss it over their heads.

and... here is the wiener/pepper WOOHOO!!

Go Vols!:clapping::dance2:epper:

Hate to jump in, and I know you're employing a bit of hyperbole here, but in 5+ games this year Dobbs completed 50 passes of 10 yards or more. I documented each of those passes in a thread several weeks back. Yes, I agree that Joshua needs to improve his accuracy throwing the ball downfield, especially outside the hashes..... but it's hardly fair to say he needs to "put up an occasional pass 7 yards". He has more work to do, but last year was a very nice start IMHO.

 

[walkenvol]

Hate to jump in, and I know you're employing a bit of hyperbole here, but in 5+ games this year Dobbs completed 50 passes of 10 yards or more. I documented each of those passes in a thread several weeks back. Yes, I agree that Joshua needs to improve his accuracy throwing the ball downfield, especially outside the hashes..... but it's hardly fair to say he needs to "put up an occasional pass 7 yards". He has more work to do, but last year was a very nice start IMHO.

Out of curiosity, did you examine the data close enough to determine if the 50 passes were caught 10+ yards past the LOS or were the resulting YAC created the 10 yard completions?

 

[KBVol]

Out of curiosity, did you examine the data close enough to determine if the 50 passes were caught 10+ yards past the LOS or were the resulting YAC created the 10 yard completions?

I didn't include any screen passes to Hurd or Lane and purposefully left out passes like Croom's 52yd TD WR screen vs Kentucky, etc. It takes probably 20-25 minutes to go back and find all Dobbs' completions. He also had several 20+ yd completions, starting with the Bama game in which he had 4 and the SCar game in which he had 5.

 

[sjt18]

The timing is wrong for the word "developing". That implies progress as time goes on. Josh began with surprising composure vs 'Bama, then continued vs SC and KY. Then his composure got worse vs Mizzou and Vandy, before bouncing back after a month break, vs Iowa.

So a little more complicated than the word "developing" can capture.

Careful. If you describe anything like an expectation for improvement... there's a poster here who will take you to task. You see... you can never truly have expectations no matter what the "norm" is across CFB and pretty much every other organized activity where training and development are a major focus.

At least one person here bristles at the idea that improvement (while there are ups and downs) occurs along an ascending (usually exponential) curve. They would have you believe that "real" improvement can occur while data points show up everywhere.

The truth is in developmental programs that lend themselves to analysis by data points... those data points will scatter "normally" around the directional curve. In college football, there is one particular measurement curve that accounts for virtually all of the data points... wins.

 

[MedicT]

Careful. If you describe anything like an expectation for improvement... there's a poster here who will take you to task. You see... you can never truly have expectations no matter what the "norm" is across CFB and pretty much every other organized activity where training and development are a major focus.

At least one person here bristles at the idea that improvement (while there are ups and downs) occurs along an ascending (usually exponential) curve. They would have you believe that "real" improvement can occur while data points show up everywhere.

The truth is in developmental programs that lend themselves to analysis by data points... those data points will scatter "normally" around the directional curve. In college football, there is one particular measurement curve that accounts for virtually all of the data points... wins.

Yes, when your propensity for closed linear thinking shows itself I usually comment. Bear Bryant, for instance, experienced a "roller coaster" record at Alabama. Was it 68 and 69 with 6 win seasons sandwiched between championship runs? Basic common sense will tell most readers that the road to greatness has its pitfalls and the road is always lined with the crows, like yourself, who are at the ready to cry out when those pitfalls are encountered.

 

[sjt18]

Yes, when your propensity for closed linear thinking shows itself I usually comment.

Yeah... it is those handcuffed by "closed linear thinking" who talk about scatter points around a normal exponential improvement curve, right?

I would still like to know what you do for a living. If I tried to argue the non-sense you do here in defense of non-improvement... I'd get fired.


The closed-mindedness is yours. You are closed to the very notion that there should be an expectation for improvement. The expectation should lie within a "range"... such as 8 to 10 wins... but if things are improving then results will reflect it.

Bear Bryant, for instance, experienced a "roller coaster" record at Alabama. Was it 68 and 69 with 6 win seasons sandwiched between championship runs? Basic common sense will tell most readers that the road to greatness has its pitfalls and the road is always lined with the crows, like yourself, who are at the ready to cry out when those pitfalls are encountered.

The short answer is that you have presented a non sequitur. Your comparison objects do not sufficiently relate.

Please tell me you aren't trying to compare Jones' credibility to a coach who had already won 3 NC's at Bama before that "rough patch". Moreover, that was a completely different era of college football. The players were different. The style was different. The media was different. Support structures in every regard were different.

Bryant didn't have a roller coaster ride. He had a couple of seasons that were anomalies in the midst of an otherwise dominating span.

 

[mmoosem]

Yeah... it is those handcuffed by "closed linear thinking" who talk about scatter points around a normal exponential improvement curve, right?

I would still like to know what you do for a living. If I tried to argue the non-sense you do here in defense of non-improvement... I'd get fired.


The closed-mindedness is yours. You are closed to the very notion that there should be an expectation for improvement. The expectation should lie within a "range"... such as 8 to 10 wins... but if things are improving then results will reflect it.


The short answer is that you have presented a non sequitur. Your comparison objects do not sufficiently relate.

Please tell me you aren't trying to compare Jones' credibility to a coach who had already won 3 NC's at Bama before that "rough patch". Moreover, that was a completely different era of college football. The players were different. The style was different. The media was different. Support structures in every regard were different.

Bryant didn't have a roller coaster ride. He had a couple of seasons that were anomalies in the midst of an otherwise dominating span.

:dance2: I love it, I learn new words every time these 2 guys talk to each other!! :dance2:

 

[08Vol]

To me an 8 win season means the defense improved like we thought it would, but the offense isn't working. DeBord was brought in to run an offense that has worked at the lower levels, but hasn't shown that it can work in the SEC. With out an SEC caliber offense, I don't think we'll get over 8 wins. This season we'll start upper class men at QB, 3 WRs, 3 or 4 OL, and 1 TE. This is the season to see if this offense can fly.

 

[JohnnyBall]

which ?If three are Florida, Alabama and OU Ill be going out to get a pitchfork..

 

[MedicT]

Yeah... it is those handcuffed by "closed linear thinking" who talk about scatter points around a normal exponential improvement curve, right?

I would still like to know what you do for a living. If I tried to argue the non-sense you do here in defense of non-improvement... I'd get fired.


The closed-mindedness is yours. You are closed to the very notion that there should be an expectation for improvement. The expectation should lie within a "range"... such as 8 to 10 wins... but if things are improving then results will reflect it.


The short answer is that you have presented a non sequitur. Your comparison objects do not sufficiently relate.

Please tell me you aren't trying to compare Jones' credibility to a coach who had already won 3 NC's at Bama before that "rough patch". Moreover, that was a completely different era of college football. The players were different. The style was different. The media was different. Support structures in every regard were different.

Bryant didn't have a roller coaster ride. He had a couple of seasons that were anomalies in the midst of an otherwise dominating span.

After following your rant over most of the past season, it is my opinion that you are already preparing to attack the program at first opportunity. That last comment almost has me convinced you are in reality, an Alabama fan. That would certainly explain a great deal.

I find your repeated curiosity regarding my vocation very interesting. How old are you?

 

[ajvol01]

After following your rant over most of the past season, it is my opinion that you are already preparing to attack the program at first opportunity. That last comment almost has me convinced you are in reality, an Alabama fan. That would certainly explain a great deal.

I find your repeated curiosity regarding my vocation very interesting. How old are you?

He is actually a self-admitted Dooley fan/apologist now sworn to never again be be fooled by an unproven Tennessee HBC.

He also admittedly likes to argue