If we go 4 - 8 do we fire Butch? (merged)

#577
#577
1972 Grad said:
I am not a Dooley lover, but I don't understand the hate. I think that he improved the program's basic structure while he was here, but didn't show what I was hoping for on the field. Last year would have been about an 8 or 9 win season, if the defensive shakeup had not occurred. Dooley may be totally responsible for everyone leaving. The staff may have decided that Dooley had thrown in the towel, so they needed to flee the sinking ship.

There was an inner dynamic on the team that was poison, and I am glad that it's over. The relationship between Dooley and Bray certainly didn't help matters. Bray's attitude sucked, as did Dooley's. I think that both are front runners, and that had we won a few more games, the situation would have taken care of itself.

I try my best to put myself in other people's shoes, before I judge them too harshly. Dooley had nearly an impossible situation in which to succeed. Was he the best man for the job? Maybe not, but I'll bet you that 8 or 9 of 10 coaches hired would be leaving this program now, just like Dooley. I don't think that he set us back any.
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1972 Grad said:
Statistics are really hard to refute, huh?
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:blink:
 
#579
#579
Oskie Volum said:
Ahhhh the mature "u r not a true fan if u don't agree with me" argument. Nice job brah!!!

Do u not comprehend the concept of "it gets harder before it gets better" or "take 2 steps back to take strides forward"??? When u r rebuilding u need to fix issues and it sets u back. Maintainers aren't Innovators/Rebuilders. So it's tough to understand if u don't have that mindset naturally. When u go into a biz to rebuild cause it's losing money u end up having to spend money to try to level it out. U aren't going to show a profit right away, but doesn't mean u aren't doing a good job of cleaning it up. There are other factors that need to be used as the measuring stick. Some are harder than others to see as well.

I've said before that I've realized this site is full of "employees" with few "managers/owners". Employees sit around complaining about how they'd do this or do that better, but don't have a clue of why things r done a certain way or what the true goals are for the company.
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I own 3 different businesses. It is not quite as easy as it looks when the buck stops at your desk. Employees make you or break you. Dooley basically started from scratch again with employees in 2012. I guess that I look at it from Dooley's vantage point more than I do as a fan.
 
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#580
#580
1972 Grad said:
I own 3 different businesses. It is not quite as easy as it looks when the buck stops at your desk. Employees make you or break you. Dooley basically started from scratch again with employees in 2012. I guess that I look at it from Dooley's vantage point more than I do as a fan.
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Running your employees off is a serious issue. It's his fault that he ran off his good employees, and he hired bad replacements. Aren't you, the businessman, accountable for you hire? He should of hired better.
 
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#581
#581
Burger said:
Running your employees off is a serious issue. It's his fault that he ran off his good employees, and he hired bad replacements. Aren't you, the businessman, accountable for you hire? He should of hired better.
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I don't disagree. He made the wrong hire and paid the price, just like Fulmer did with Dave Clawsen. Mike Hamilton did the same.
 
#582
#582
Burger said:
Dooley went more backwards than forwards on the field. You have to show progress if you want to keep your position. The only progress he showed was that there are a lot less arrest. The VFL program got recreated by Butch because it was a mess. His employees hated him hence the mass exodus of 2011. He got fired because his defensive coordinator is a dimwit. His players actively resisted him the whole way because he didn't connect with anyone. He failed in almost every aspect of his job. He did a mediocre job at bringing talent. His method didn't work. Why defend a failure? Jones has to again try to rebuild the program because Dooley failed to. That's how it is.
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My pt is progress on the field may not show best until all the other negatives are taken care of. Also, I, not most, did see progress this past season. The only set goal Dooley said would be better going into the season was the OL and the run game. Which was improved. At one pt Neal was one of the leading rushers in the league, but then he got hurt. Progress. Also, I know so many of yall were on ur knees hoping to be teabagged by Gruden to see any progress. I, on the other hand saw a team that fought hard in games and took UGA, USC, and others to the wire. Things that didn't happen the year before. Progress. I know yall will come back with the Troy games etc, but those are teams that have solid talent that play tough.

So people left only because of him?? Couldn't have anything to do with the situation UT was in?? All Dooley, or whatever name u can call him to make urself feel better about ur life, right?? So what u r saying is that u've never experienced a job where a new boss came in and people didn't like his new rules?? Or u've never taken a new job u ended up leaving soon after cause u didn't like the boss? I'm sure u r so awesome that u've never experienced something like that before.

So people left, but people like u don't ever mention the people that stayed. So Wilcox left. Be it cause he didn't like Dooley, the situation at UT, or frankly left because he had an opportunity to take him back to his part of the country with a great job. I know I know that's shocking cause no one u know has ever left a job they like to take one closer to their family and friends. But fyi....it happens.
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#583
#583
Oskie Volum said:
My pt is progress on the field may not show best until all the other negatives are taken care of. Also, I, not most, did see progress this past season. The only set goal Dooley said would be better going into the season was the OL and the run game. Which was improved. At one pt Neal was one of the leading rushers in the league, but then he got hurt. Progress. Also, I know so many of yall were on ur knees hoping to be teabagged by Gruden to see any progress. I, on the other hand saw a team that fought hard in games and took UGA, USC, and others to the wire. Things that didn't happen the year before. Progress. I know yall will come back with the Troy games etc, but those are teams that have solid talent that play tough.

So people left only because of him?? Couldn't have anything to do with the situation UT was in?? All Dooley, or whatever name u can call him to make urself feel better about ur life, right?? So what u r saying is that u've never experienced a job where a new boss came in and people didn't like his new rules?? Or u've never taken a new job u ended up leaving soon after cause u didn't like the boss? I'm sure u r so awesome that u've never experienced something like that before.

So people left, but people like u don't ever mention the people that stayed. So Wilcox left. Be it cause he didn't like Dooley, the situation at UT, or frankly left because he had an opportunity to take him back to his part of the country with a great job. I know I know that's shocking cause no one u know has ever left a job they like to take one closer to their family and friends. But fyi....it happens.
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Wilcox was quoted saying that Dooley was a terrible guy to work for. He treated everybody like crap. Didn't you remember hearing about it when he got canned. Wilcox, a guy Derek Dooley hired, left his ass in an important year. Look at Butch and his batch of guys, they are following him to the end of the world because they love the guy. The rest of them stayed because they didn't have a choice. Dooley was quoted for being a control freak to the point it bugged everyone he worked with. Did you see how the idiot threw Charlie Coiner to the dogs against MSU?
 
#584
#584
Burger said:
Wilcox was quoted saying that Dooley was a terrible guy to work for. He treated everybody like crap. Didn't you remember hearing about it when he got canned. Wilcox, a guy Derek Dooley hired, left his ass in an important year. Look at Butch and his batch of guys, they are following him to the end of the world because they love the guy. The rest of them stayed because they didn't have a choice. Dooley was quoted for being a control freak to the point it bugged everyone he worked with. Did you see how the idiot threw Charlie Coiner to the dogs against MSU?
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Please don't give me this pansy "the boss was mean" crap. Grown men making 6 figures plus need to get the job done. I don't know the "throwing under the bus" Dooley quote towards Coiner but iirc he was getting bashed on here by many like u after the MSU game. I ask u post the quote, but don't expect much sympathy from my end if he was just being held accountable.

It's great that the staff CBJ has put together is following him, but let's not act like doubling+ their pay has nothing to do with it. Now if all these guys stay together through it all even after trying to get poached by other programs than we can talk like it's some big deal. Atp he's just been able to have enough time to put together a staff of guys that no one else wants separate from CBJ.

Also don't give me this crap about Chaney not being able to go anywhere else and that's why he stayed. Or any of the other coaches. If it was so bad they could have left too.

Now the Wilcox quote u mentioned I did not know about. I did a quick search looking for it on here and the Internet and could not find it. So please post it. With that said my search came up with the following:

YouTube

(will admit I'm not sure if it'll come up right)

Now the video is interesting cause u don't say multiple times a guy is a good coach if u don't think it or at the least think he is good. Also, I find it interesting how he confirms what I and few on here have been trying to say when he says that many don't truly understand what the situation is at UT.
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#585
#585
bud
Oskie Volum said:
Please don't give me this pansy "the boss was mean" crap. Grown men making 6 figures plus need to get the job done. I don't know the "throwing under the bus" Dooley quote towards Coiner but iirc he was getting bashed on here by many like u after the MSU game. I ask u post the quote, but don't expect much sympathy from my end if he was just being held accountable.

It's great that the staff CBJ has put together is following him, but let's not act like doubling+ their pay has nothing to do with it. Now if all these guys stay together through it all even after trying to get poached by other programs than we can talk like it's some big deal. Atp he's just been able to have enough time to put together a staff of guys that no one else wants separate from CBJ.

Also don't give me this crap about Chaney not being able to go anywhere else and that's why he stayed. Or any of the other coaches. If it was so bad they could have left too.

Now the Wilcox quote u mentioned I did not know about. I did a quick search looking for it on here and the Internet and could not find it. So please post it. With that said my search came up with the following:

YouTube

(will admit I'm not sure if it'll come up right)

Now the video is interesting cause u don't say multiple times a guy is a good coach if u don't think it or at the least think he is good. Also, I find it interesting how he confirms what I and few on here have been trying to say when he says that many don't truly understand what the situation is at UT.
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You won't get far treating your workers like Dooley did. Don't you remember Charlie Coiner being thrown out there with only days to prepare because of the hip surgery. I remember that disaster. I started wanting the idiot gone after the Florida game. He didn't succeed in any big game. Throwing under the bus is my expression for what Dooley does.
According to Butch, he already has to fight to keep his assistants. Bajakian had SEC offers before he came here with Jones. Try landing a job after your offense is the reason why the 2011 team went 5-7. Chaney did a bad job in year one and two. His offense was extremely bad before this year. The baseball player who Fooley gave his first opportunity left for Nebraska. You don't take the same position at a lesser school unless there are other issues. If Wilcox liked working for Dooley, he wouldnt of left the SEC, especially if he wanted a head coaching job. Eric Russell, who was at La Tech, left for friggin Washington State. If youre having high staff turnover rate, it is extremely bad regardless of reason. Normal bosses had loyal employees, we saw the loyalty of Dooley's staffs. It was probably a multiple of factors, but they were unhappy here as they left.
 
#586
#586
1972 Grad said:
I own 3 different businesses. It is not quite as easy as it looks when the buck stops at your desk. Employees make you or break you. Dooley basically started from scratch again with employees in 2012. I guess that I look at it from Dooley's vantage point more than I do as a fan.
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The reason he "started from scratch" with some new employees in 2012 was because Wilcox and Sirmon jumped off the sinking ship/read the writing on the wall/wanted away from him. They moved on to lateral positions in a lesser conference. It was of Dooley's own making.

He then made what could easily be termed the worst coaching hire in program history in Sal Sunseri. You as a business owner clearly recognize that he was to be held accountable for both of those occurrences. As you say, employees can make or break you....
 
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#587
#587
KBVol said:
The reason he "started from scratch" with some new employees in 2012 was because Wilcox and Sirmon jumped off the sinking ship/read the writing on the wall/wanted away from him. They moved on to lateral positions in a lesser conference. It was of Dooley's own making.

He then made what could easily be termed the worst coaching hire in program history in Sal Sunseri. You as a business owner clearly recognize that he was to be held accountable for both of those occurrences. As you say, employees can make or break you....
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Exactly, no matter why they left, it was Dooley's undoing. He could of hired Randy Shannon instead.
 
#589
#589
1972 Grad said:
I own 3 different businesses. It is not quite as easy as it looks when the buck stops at your desk. Employees make you or break you. Dooley basically started from scratch again with employees in 2012. I guess that I look at it from Dooley's vantage point more than I do as a fan.
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I have been a manager my whole career. I understand the responsibility you speak of but do not share your sympathy toward Dooley either as a fan or a manager.

I expect to be held accountable for the results produced by the people I allow to work around me. When I fire or lose an employee, it is my job to assure that I hire someone better than the person I lost. It is my job to assure they fit and we get synergy.

Dooley flat out failed to do that like Fulmer before him with Clawson. They were both rightly fired in part for failing to hire well.
 
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#590
#590
sjt18 said:
I have been a manager my whole career. I understand the responsibility you speak of but do not share your sympathy toward Dooley either as a fan or a manager.

I expect to be held accountable for the results produced by the people I allow to work around me. When I fire or lose an employee, it is my job to assure that I hire someone better than the person I lost. It is my job to assure they fit and we get synergy.

Dooley flat out failed to do that like Fulmer before him with Clawson. They were both rightly fired in part for failing to hire well.
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I agree, but still feel sorry for anyone who tries and fails.
 
#591
#591
Under Dooley:

The roster improved and is better by far than 3 years ago. Off the field discipline issues are now lower than average after becoming a total embarrassment with Fulmer and a lesser extent Kiffin. S&C and some of the position coaching was "good". For instance Mahoney by almost all estimates did a very good job.

Relationships with former players, HS coaches, et al eroded. Talent was under-utilized. Some position coaching was mediocre or poor- ie back 7 on D. Team underperformed its talent on the field and lost too many games. Gameplanning on D and playcalling was poor under Sunseri. If for no other reason, Dooley should have been fired for making a statement that he had started attending defensive meetings sometime after the USCe loss- How can you be that oblivious? Dooley's lack of X and O ability made him too dependent on others. The staff appeared to be dysfunctional and disjointed at times. As others have said, Dooley seems to find ways to lose. No one was able to deal with Bray's tendency to choke. No one dealt with Hunter mailing last season in. Recent academic reports were poor. Dooley's best recruiting class by far was the one started by Kiffin. The other two were pretty "average".


The balance clearly tips away from Dooley. However MOST of those problems go with him and need not hinder Jones at all while the few good things he did benefit Jones greatly. Just the fact that he does not have to come in and kick a couple of talented guys off the team for a recent bar fight is a plus... or deal with his best D player having a substance problem.
 
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#592
#592
1972 Grad said:
I agree, but still feel sorry for anyone who tries and fails.
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I don't. He consciously took the risk career wise. He had to know he was reaching. He definitely knew what he was walking in to but likely thought he could handle it. (I've made the same mistake. Vanity can get the best of any of us)

He wisely protected himself in his contract and is getting paid a hefty buyout. It might be more of a temptation if I believed he was likely to ever be a successful CFB HC.... or if his "unemployment" package weren't so generous.
 
#593
#593
sjt18 said:
I don't. He consciously took the risk career wise. He had to know he was reaching. He definitely knew what he was walking in to but likely thought he could handle it. (I've made the same mistake. Vanity can get the best of any of us)

He wisely protected himself in his contract and is getting paid a hefty buyout. It might be more of a temptation if I believed he was likely to ever be a successful CFB HC.... or if his "unemployment" package weren't so generous.
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Dooley won the game of life because of that buyout. Anyone who can get paid for getting fired wins in the end. Tennessee did more for Dooley than Dooley did for Tennessee. That's why I heavily dislike him. He's scum like a banker.
 
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#594
#594
burger said:
dooley won the game of life because of that buyout. Anyone who can get paid for getting fired wins in the end. Tennessee did more for dooley than dooley did for tennessee. That's why i heavily dislike him. He's scum like a politician.
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fyp😊😳
 
#595
#595
Pompey said:
....I definitely think we should fire a football coach every two or three years until no one would seriously look at taking the job.
Also firing a coach before he is given an opportunity to repair a badly broken program would be more in line with the level of sophistication of the UT fan base.....so by all means fire away...!
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Oh for Pete's sake!! Really now? It's not like Fooley was fired after one season. He had time to right the ship, but the ship was only sinking further down. Maybe I can spell it out for you in short words.

Fooley could not recruit. He was weak on discipline. He was weak on conditioning. Off season work outs were optional. If he had coached at Tennessee 100 years he would not have won so much as an SEC East Title. He was miserably unsuited to be a head coach.
 
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#597
#597
Burger said:
Good fix. Thank you. Difference between a politician and a hooker, is that a hooker can wash off with a shower. The scum of a politician never leaves.
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You're welcome. Didn't mean to be presumptive. Glad you agree... your reasoning is beyond reproach.
 
#598
#598
No they're stuck with Butch, much the same way they were stuck with Dooley.. Butch is a better coach, should will do more with what talent Dooley brought in, wasn't much.. After year two and not much progress, fire Dave Hart. Jimmy butt Cheek should have already been gone.. Butch will get his 3 years and that's pretty much the end of story.. Tennessee needs talent and he's doing pretty good there.. Its going to take time.. Just don't lose to Vandy and the teams they're supposed to beat.. This thing has been run into the dirt and it's going to take time to get it back where we want it. Sucks, but that's where it's at..
 
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#599
#599
KBVol said:
You're welcome. Didn't mean to be presumptive. Glad you agree... your reasoning is beyond reproach.
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I don't think you were. I respect you and most members of this forum, which includes people who disagree with me. No reason not to be objective as I can be. It's all in the part of growing up as a human being.
 
#600
#600
That may be in the top 5 alltime DA things anybody has posted. Why don't we shut down football since Butch hasn't won a game yet.Where do they come from is all i can say about this one
 
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