If holly really love lady vols she need to step down!!

[volbeast33]

If holly really love this school ( lady vols) and all pat did, she need to step down so that a championship coach can step innn.

If you knew anything at all about Pat.... the last things she would want is for Holly to quit... she would want her to get to work to fix it.

 

[Darth_Vol]

So how do we define "disaster"? the 2008-09 team with all that talent that lost 11 games and then got a beat-down from Ball State in the first round of the Tourney -- yes, that has to be considered a disaster based on double-digit losses and the Tourney result.

Completely different situation. The 09 team was a unique team in all Pat's years of coaching in that she had just lost FIVE senior starters coming off back to back championships. Everyone knew they would be so dependent on freshmen that it would be a rebuilding year. Even that team managed to stay in the top 25 and finished higher in the SEC. Last year's team was expected to be the best of Holly's tenure. Everyone had them in their preseason top 4.

But though every coach of a power program cares about the regular season, the main purpose is to use it for development for a long run in the Tourney. Sure, last season had 14 losses, many of them pretty ugly, but the Tourney result was certainly not a total disaster. Six of Pat's teams from 1982 on did not reach the Elite 8, and except possibly for 2009 I don't think any of them were considered disasters, even if the final result was bitter.

Like you said, not making at least the Elite 8 was unusual the past 30 years so I'm not sure why so many Holly backers want to throw a parade when she gets there. Until Pat's health started failing her at the end, every player who played four years under her played in a Final Four. That isn't an unreasonable expectation for this program. I'm fully convinced that no player who plays for Holly Warlick will ever play in a Final Four.

So we shouldn't paint everything too darkly and demean the final achievements of last year's squad, even if they aren't what is hoped for. There were 341 D1 teams that did not reach the Elite 8 last year, and for all their swagger during the regular season prior to last March, the Gamecocks were sitting at home when the Vols were still playing.

The goal is to make the Final Four and neither of them did. They were both disappointments, but at least USC has been there recently. You can't sugarcoat last season, it was an historic disaster for this program....

 

[Hoya Saxa]

She flourished at UNC because they were run and gun.

Diamond's numbers at UNC were not any better than they are at Tennessee. She is the same player now as she was then. The perception was different during her year at UNC because she was a freshman and she was flashy and athletic. There was talk of all that untapped potential as she matured. She also was able to penetrate and slash more at UNC because UNC did not face a zone every game.

 

[T.J.]

If you knew anything at all about Pat.... the last things she would want is for Holly to quit... she would want her to get to work to fix it.

The way things are going now Holly will be fired before she would had quit. She is just that awful of a coach.

 

[T.J.]

It's funny because I don't trust the coaching staff regarding anything except their ability to get decent players. I don't trust they start the best players or use the best rotation. Anyone with eyes, a pulse, and a middle school level of understanding of basketball should be able to see they can't be trusted developing or implementing offenses and defenses. They also can't develop players.

I just don't get how such a top tier program got stuck with such mediocrity.

IT was just too easy to give the program to Pat Summitt's assistant. Per her wishes. She was dying what whey they supposed to do? I know that Holly was supposed to say thanks but no thanks. She did not so here we are.

With each abysmal loss Holly inches closer to the exit. :clapping:

All we can do is wait her out. Enjoy the games that they win and contemplate a new coach when they lose. k:

 

[T.J.]

I've said that since the beginning of the season. Baylor has 4 posts 6'3+ they can throw at Russell. Holly will have to play one or both of her bench posts. It will be like how she will trot out Kortney with under 5 min to go and Tennessee down by double digits and expect her to light it up when she's been sitting at the end of the bench for a month.

Holly's not looking ahead. She don't care what Baylor brings to the court. If she did we be seeing more of Nunn & Harris on the court.

Kortney, Shaq & Kamara are being under utilized just like Nia Moore.

 

[volbeast33]

Holly's not looking ahead. She don't care what Baylor brings to the court. If she did we be seeing more of Nunn & Harris on the court.

Kortney, Shaq & Kamara are being under utilized just like Nia Moore.

What has Shaq and Kortney shown that says they need to play more....Holly didn't bring in a graduate transfer without planning on her being a vital member of the team... she is not earning playing time... we all know Harris is a project and probably won't get much time this year.

 

[Amb3096]

What has Shaq and Kortney shown that says they need to play more....Holly didn't bring in a graduate transfer without planning on her being a vital member of the team... she is not earning playing time... we all know Harris is a project and probably won't get much time this year.

Look how the team plays. Most of then shouldn't be earning playing time based on performance to date.

The bench won't get better until they see time on the court. That's what cupcake opponents are for, but Holly needs Mercedes and Jaime to play 40 minutes because she can't win games easily against weak teams.

 

[DR2]

You're a UConn fan right? Would you be happy if instead of another undefeated season last year, they lost 14 games...many to teams nowhere close to them in talent level, dropped out of the rankings, barely made the tournament, then got blown off the court by yet another team with inferior talent that already pulled off a major upset? Or would you say, "Oh, that's ok. We made it one round further than ND!". Of course not. You'd be wondering how a team with so much talent underachieved all year when they should have been a contender for the NC.

Let's not pretend all those losses to unranked and lesser teams didn't hurt Tennessee against Syracuse. They weren't afraid of the name on the jersey, and played like they were the ones who belong there, not Tennessee. And we're now seeing the continuation of that mentality when teams like PSU and VT come on the court believing they are the better team. They've lost their swagger and the fear factor because no one is afraid of Tennessee anymore, no matter how many HS AAs are on the team.

WCBB fanatic, UConn fan, and fan of all the top striving programs that create the product. Not a fan of the stupid crap-hate that often gets flung around. Banned from the skeleton yard.

Point is, no matter how deep the frustration goes, there is obviously some good effort at times when a team gets to the E8, and I just wouldn't call it a disaster of a season if that was the final result. I was crushed in March in years when the Huskies fell short of the Elite 8 and I wasn't completely sure that the next year would be better, but you gotta keep faith, in the program if not the coach.

Moaning and *****in' and just hoping and dreaming won't change anything. I think any non-delusional LV fanatic would be seriously hoping that maybe a contingent of ex-Vols could get together and huddle up with Holly to coax her into assembling a system will work in the modern era and has a training system to support a dynamic offense and solid defense. Even if there are a lot of broken parts in the system right now, a "player's coach" like Holly can still run a successful program if a good system is in place and demanding assistants make sure the players stay directed. But you do have to have a plan that goes beyond chuck inside or heave a bomb and crash the boards.

Even in last year's "disaster" of a season, there were the wins at Oregon St. and over Texas A&M, Arizona St., and Ohio St. in March showed that the players at least had enough talent to succeed against many people's expectations. The problem with letting the frustration boil over is that even the smaller victories that a team can build on like the run to the Elite 8 last year may become tougher to achieve.

And obviously the Cuse was not going to be scared of the Vols like they would have been twenty years ago, but no team wins on fear anymore. Even the best teams in the country sometimes gets a lid nailed on the rim that makes them look like a band of klutzes. Plus, the Cuse had already lost to the Vols in November, and it's always a tougher to do it again against a team that knows how you play.

 

[mike099]

The way things are going now Holly will be fired before she would had quit. She is just that awful of a coach.

With this administration, the earliest that a firing will be considered is the end of next year. Given past hires not confident in who they may choose.

If it happens would they after an up and coming head coach or pony up and go after a proven coach at a top 25 program.

 

[hokievol12]

How many layups did Va Tech make ? They did not need 3's to win this game.All that was need was to drive to the basket.Holly's game play sucked like it always does.

It all starts with coaching! There are average coaches out there using 2 and 3 star players to beat the LV'S like a drum...because they actually know how to communicate with their players and teach fundamentals...

 

[volbeast33]

Look how the team plays. Most of then shouldn't be earning playing time based on performance to date.

The bench won't get better until they see time on the court. That's what cupcake opponents are for, but Holly needs Mercedes and Jaime to play 40 minutes because she can't win games easily against weak teams.

You earn playing time in practice period.... two of our biggest issues so far has been nunn giving us nothing and the play of deshields.

 

[gule]

true dat!

 

[Darth_Vol]

WCBB fanatic, UConn fan

That certainly explains a lot. No wonder you're defending Holly...

 

[DR2]

That certainly explains a lot. No wonder you're defending Holly...

Ho, ho, good one. Defending Holly? That's a task for someone with a lot more superhuman qualities than I have. When you were still praising her virtues years ago when the results were a little more positive, I was showing the real numbers (over on another place) that showed how much of the success was smoke and mirrors and depended on a very rare player like Izzy to make it at all workable. And a few years back when some were chortling that DD was the second coming of Candace, there were indeed some of us who were looking at the numbers and asking how closely a 0.75 A/TO, 42% shooting, perimeter bricker compared to a legend with far more assists than TOs as a post and whose fairly rare 3-pt shooting (60 for career) was still better than DD's.

But there are problems with being a dumb and spoiled fan. First off, you begin to lose sight of the huge continuous effort needed to win out on the court, you start demeaning the opponents even though any team with a plan can win on any given day, and you start thinking that if you just get a bunch of highly praised recruits that you have some ordained right to win. Doesn't work that way, and too many fans lose sight of the work that is needed to get a raw freshman polished up to be a star, and they are all too willing to rip her apart for any shortcoming they feel is an insult to her team's fans while she learns the WCBB trade.

Over on the BY, there are way too many fans who have surged in over the past years with the agenda of just belly-achin' if the team does not win a game by 40, that chop up even stars if they get injured and are a little out of shape, and who go really vicious on role players they take some hate to. And the venom spewed toward teams like Louisville and other top contenders by certain fans is just inexplicable in a sport that like all others, you do what it takes to win, and let the other team's fans be cry-babies if their team isn't tough enough.

That's what getting spoiled and entitled does to you, and too many Vol fans are still stuck in an entitled "we once ruled the world so we are owed a place on the throne (the jewel-encrusted one)" attitude. Nope, every year is a new scratch-and-claw-to-the-death struggle that can be sunk by one twist of a knee. Pat certainly knew that and was always raging against the specter of that final loss. To reinsert a system that can make sure the final game is a victory does require some deep analysis by the staff of where problems are and realistic solutions of how to fix them. Quick simplistic ideas like "be tougher," "show more fire," or "fight harder for rebounds" don't work anymore like they did for Pat because she usually needed tweaks and inspirational messages, not massive changes.

But being a total Debbie-downer and saying that anyone is a Holly-worshipper who realistically sees that Holly is set for a while and can still do some things to bring about at least a result that 341 teams cannot say they achieved last year, that's crap. You don't have to Chris-ten her as the genius she clearly isn't, but maybe some good thoughts on VN could filter back to her and improve things. I know from decades on the BY that certain posters who proclaimed to know more than Geno were happy to provide him with all the ideas that led to some undefeated seasons. Maybe things said on a forum actually do filter back to the locker room.

And BTW, I was using the "Darth" moniker for my fantasy football team back in the 1990s before you appropriated it, so it's time to return it. Maybe you can leave the Dark Side and switch in Ewok in it's place.

 

[Darth_Vol]

But being a total Debbie-downer and saying that anyone is a Holly-worshipper who realistically sees that Holly is set for a while and can still do some things to bring about at least a result that 341 teams cannot say they achieved last year, that's crap.

Uh, no. What's crap is the implication that the expections at Tennessee are the same as 341 other teams. What's crap is assuming anyone here cares what's going on at the BY. What's crap is a UConn fan lecturing Tennessee fans on proper fan etiquette when the programs are clearly on opposite ends of the stratosphere right now.

You agree Holly is an inferior coach, yet LV fans should just smile and see the glass 5% full. Duly noted, thanks....

 

[Voltopia]

Ho, ho, good one. Defending Holly? That's a task for someone with a lot more superhuman qualities than I have. When you were still praising her virtues years ago when the results were a little more positive, I was showing the real numbers (over on another place) that showed how much of the success was smoke and mirrors and depended on a very rare player like Izzy to make it at all workable. And a few years back when some were chortling that DD was the second coming of Candace, there were indeed some of us who were looking at the numbers and asking how closely a 0.75 A/TO, 42% shooting, perimeter bricker compared to a legend with far more assists than TOs as a post and whose fairly rare 3-pt shooting (60 for career) was still better than DD's.

But there are problems with being a dumb and spoiled fan. First off, you begin to lose sight of the huge continuous effort needed to win out on the court, you start demeaning the opponents even though any team with a plan can win on any given day, and you start thinking that if you just get a bunch of highly praised recruits that you have some ordained right to win. Doesn't work that way, and too many fans lose sight of the work that is needed to get a raw freshman polished up to be a star, and they are all too willing to rip her apart for any shortcoming they feel is an insult to her team's fans while she learns the WCBB trade.

Over on the BY, there are way too many fans who have surged in over the past years with the agenda of just belly-achin' if the team does not win a game by 40, that chop up even stars if they get injured and are a little out of shape, and who go really vicious on role players they take some hate to. And the venom spewed toward teams like Louisville and other top contenders by certain fans is just inexplicable in a sport that like all others, you do what it takes to win, and let the other team's fans be cry-babies if their team isn't tough enough.

That's what getting spoiled and entitled does to you, and too many Vol fans are still stuck in an entitled "we once ruled the world so we are owed a place on the throne (the jewel-encrusted one)" attitude. Nope, every year is a new scratch-and-claw-to-the-death struggle that can be sunk by one twist of a knee. Pat certainly knew that and was always raging against the specter of that final loss. To reinsert a system that can make sure the final game is a victory does require some deep analysis by the staff of where problems are and realistic solutions of how to fix them. Quick simplistic ideas like "be tougher," "show more fire," or "fight harder for rebounds" don't work anymore like they did for Pat because she usually needed tweaks and inspirational messages, not massive changes.

But being a total Debbie-downer and saying that anyone is a Holly-worshipper who realistically sees that Holly is set for a while and can still do some things to bring about at least a result that 341 teams cannot say they achieved last year, that's crap. You don't have to Chris-ten her as the genius she clearly isn't, but maybe some good thoughts on VN could filter back to her and improve things. I know from decades on the BY that certain posters who proclaimed to know more than Geno were happy to provide him with all the ideas that led to some undefeated seasons. Maybe things said on a forum actually do filter back to the locker room.

And BTW, I was using the "Darth" moniker for my fantasy football team back in the 1990s before you appropriated it, so it's time to return it. Maybe you can leave the Dark Side and switch in Ewok in it's place.

... good grief, I hate it when I agree with a UConn fan. Pat may rise up out the earth and make me run suicides at this rate. I hope they at least let me keep my VFL card, I may have to turn it or at least go before the board of Volunteers for an inquiry or somesuch. My tickets to the Final Four in Atlanta were in a UConn section, maybe that will give me a pass. Two days of that nonstop "U - C - O - N - N" chant. The horror. I'll claim it was Stockholm syndrome. Yeah, that's the ticket.

But I agree with a lot of your sentiments. I think winning skews one's perspective, and for Tennessee (and Connecticut) the winning was so easy for so long that reality is hard to grasp at times. No two seasons of basketball ever relate to one another, not really, but there's always a lot of trying to fit the present into what's already been seen or done.

Though, I don't ever recall thinking Diamond was the next Candace Parker though. Never crossed my mind. Parker was beyond special. Ridiculously talented. She goes in the group with Moore and Taurasi and Holdsclaw. Very small group.

Which is not to say Deshields isn't good or talented. She is. Just not in that bucket.

 

[madtownvol]

Ho, ho, good one. Defending Holly? That's a task for someone with a lot more superhuman qualities than I have. When you were still praising her virtues years ago when the results were a little more positive, I was showing the real numbers (over on another place) that showed how much of the success was smoke and mirrors and depended on a very rare player like Izzy to make it at all workable. And a few years back when some were chortling that DD was the second coming of Candace, there were indeed some of us who were looking at the numbers and asking how closely a 0.75 A/TO, 42% shooting, perimeter bricker compared to a legend with far more assists than TOs as a post and whose fairly rare 3-pt shooting (60 for career) was still better than DD's.

But there are problems with being a dumb and spoiled fan. First off, you begin to lose sight of the huge continuous effort needed to win out on the court, you start demeaning the opponents even though any team with a plan can win on any given day, and you start thinking that if you just get a bunch of highly praised recruits that you have some ordained right to win. Doesn't work that way, and too many fans lose sight of the work that is needed to get a raw freshman polished up to be a star, and they are all too willing to rip her apart for any shortcoming they feel is an insult to her team's fans while she learns the WCBB trade.

Over on the BY, there are way too many fans who have surged in over the past years with the agenda of just belly-achin' if the team does not win a game by 40, that chop up even stars if they get injured and are a little out of shape, and who go really vicious on role players they take some hate to. And the venom spewed toward teams like Louisville and other top contenders by certain fans is just inexplicable in a sport that like all others, you do what it takes to win, and let the other team's fans be cry-babies if their team isn't tough enough.

That's what getting spoiled and entitled does to you, and too many Vol fans are still stuck in an entitled "we once ruled the world so we are owed a place on the throne (the jewel-encrusted one)" attitude. Nope, every year is a new scratch-and-claw-to-the-death struggle that can be sunk by one twist of a knee. Pat certainly knew that and was always raging against the specter of that final loss. To reinsert a system that can make sure the final game is a victory does require some deep analysis by the staff of where problems are and realistic solutions of how to fix them. Quick simplistic ideas like "be tougher," "show more fire," or "fight harder for rebounds" don't work anymore like they did for Pat because she usually needed tweaks and inspirational messages, not massive changes.

But being a total Debbie-downer and saying that anyone is a Holly-worshipper who realistically sees that Holly is set for a while and can still do some things to bring about at least a result that 341 teams cannot say they achieved last year, that's crap. You don't have to Chris-ten her as the genius she clearly isn't, but maybe some good thoughts on VN could filter back to her and improve things. I know from decades on the BY that certain posters who proclaimed to know more than Geno were happy to provide him with all the ideas that led to some undefeated seasons. Maybe things said on a forum actually do filter back to the locker room.

And BTW, I was using the "Darth" moniker for my fantasy football team back in the 1990s before you appropriated it, so it's time to return it. Maybe you can leave the Dark Side and switch in Ewok in it's place.

I will say one thing for Darth (and we have had our disagreements), he never praised Holly's virtue; But maybe you need to take this rant to the BY, which seems to be a major source of your ire. The LV's program has been slipping since CP3 and her cohorts graduated. The slide from being a truly elite program began under Coach Summitt. The LVs simply can't compete with Uconn, Notre Dame, Louisville, Baylor, or even Stanford and now are struggling against the VT of this world. Making it to the elite 8 was a worthwhile achievement (and somewhat surprising considering how last season had gone).

The issue is just what you stated, that Holly does not seem to have an answer to redress the team problems and to get more out of what remains a team with above average talent. Suggesting that this board could be the resource that Holly needs to get some ideas strikes me as a pretty damning indictment in its own way. So, what exactly are you railing against?

 

[DR2]

I will say one thing for Darth (and we have had our disagreements), he never praised Holly's virtue; But maybe you need to take this rant to the BY, which seems to be a major source of your ire. The LV's program has been slipping since CP3 and her cohorts graduated. The slide from being a truly elite program began under Coach Summitt. The LVs simply can't compete with Uconn, Notre Dame, Louisville, Baylor, or even Stanford and now are struggling against the VT of this world. Making it to the elite 8 was a worthwhile achievement (and somewhat surprising considering how last season had gone).

The issue is just what you stated, that Holly does not seem to have an answer to redress the team problems and to get more out of what remains a team with above average talent. Suggesting that this board could be the resource that Holly needs to get some ideas strikes me as a pretty damning indictment in its own way. So, what exactly are you railing against?

Railing against? Who's railing when the question is posed about how to respond when you feel a coach does not have viable system in place to train up top recruits and provide them with a floor strategies that work? Doesn't help to butch and moan and cry that the LVs should be winning games against good opponents by double-digits when they don't have the players set up to do so. And constantly whining about the coach makes a lot of fans feel good, but they know she's not going anywhere soon,so maybe that's the railing you're talking about.

I've read through the boards of all the top teams with any kind of content for more than a decade, and I'll take your word for it that Darth was a Holly-basher from the moment she took over at least the floor duties in 2011-12. Seemed there was a generally welcoming attitude among fans at the time, but maybe our memories get cloudy over the years. But if he had her pegged as a career assistant coach from the start, more power to him.

 

[madtownvol]

Railing against? Who's railing when the question is posed about how to respond when you feel a coach does not have viable system in place to train up top recruits and provide them with a floor strategies that work? Doesn't help to butch and moan and cry that the LVs should be winning games against good opponents by double-digits when they don't have the players set up to do so. And constantly whining about the coach makes a lot of fans feel good, but they know she's not going anywhere soon,so maybe that's the railing you're talking about.

I've read through the boards of all the top teams with any kind of content for more than a decade, and I'll take your word for it that Darth was a Holly-basher from the moment she took over at least the floor duties in 2011-12. Seemed there was a generally welcoming attitude among fans at the time, but maybe our memories get cloudy over the years. But if he had her pegged as a career assistant coach from the start, more power to him.

Okay, so how should lady vols respond to their frustrations? It is true that *****ing and moaning does not change anything but neither does saying " give Holly time" or "we are stuck with her so let's just go with the flow"; or any other response in between. Fan boards don't have a lot of effect other than letting fans express their feelings (whether good or bad). So there is something you don't like about this and presumably other fan boards but it is not clear what it is?

So, what is the "right" way you would like to see?

 

[kvol1987]

Let me ask you guys a hypothetical - you have a 1st time head coach that has averaged 27 wins her first four years and has gone to the Elite Eight in 2013, 2015, 2016 and Sweet Sixteen in 2014. Also in each of those years going into post season play, she made the Elite Eight and Sweet Sixteen runs without a key starter, primarily her point guard or post player and while the team has lost two road games this season, they are only playing with 4 bench players (one freshman post, one stretch four and two guards) but she has the number one signed recruiting class (4 players - one PG, one SG, one P and one Wing) coming in the Fall of 2017 ... based on this information would you fire that coach? I know some of you will say yes because you know the above information is Holly Warlick's record, but if you are honest with yourself, you know the answer is NO. You might not like Holly but you are comparing her to a person most of you watched win 8 national championships. Just remember, it was in Pat Summit's 13th season that she won her FIRST national championship, before that she had the label of not being able to win the big game.

 

[kvol1987]

And don't give me the answer that Pat made it to the Final Four or Championship game and Holly hasn't because pretty much all of you are National Championship or bust! Plus I would say Holly would have had her Final Four two years ago if Izzy had been playing.

 

[VolUpInCumming]

:rtfm:.............lol:

 

[Amb3096]

Let me ask you guys a hypothetical - you have a 1st time head coach that has averaged 27 wins her first four years and has gone to the Elite Eight in 2013, 2015, 2016 and Sweet Sixteen in 2014. Also in each of those years going into post season play, she made the Elite Eight and Sweet Sixteen runs without a key starter, primarily her point guard or post player and while the team has lost two road games this season, they are only playing with 4 bench players (one freshman post, one stretch four and two guards) but she has the number one signed recruiting class (4 players - one PG, one SG, one P and one Wing) coming in the Fall of 2017 ... based on this information would you fire that coach? I know some of you will say yes because you know the above information is Holly Warlick's record, but if you are honest with yourself, you know the answer is NO. You might not like Holly but you are comparing her to a person most of you watched win 8 national championships. Just remember, it was in Pat Summit's 13th season that she won her FIRST national championship, before that she had the label of not being able to win the big game.

The Tennessee program was already built and established as a top tier program. Built in fanbase, top notch facilities, admisnistrative support, and a roster stacked with the best HS talent in the country. She was basically handed the keys to a Ferrari. There is zero comparison to what Pat had to accomplish at the start of her career.

 

[alexvol]

The Tennessee program was already built and established as a top tier program. Built in fanbase, top notch facilities, admisnistrative support, and a roster stacked with the best HS talent in the country. She was basically handed the keys to a Ferrari. There is zero comparison to what Pat had to accomplish at the start of her career.

Amen and well stated.