If Butch goes 9-4

#101
#101
So hard to answer the OP's question without seeing the substance. Two weeks ago we all assumed we'd be 2-0 at this point and we are. BUT having watched what we've seen so far it's a far more bitter 2-0 than any of us expected.
In my opinion you can throw out a virtual meaningless win against a Big 10/Big 12 #4 or #5 in the Consolation Prize Bowl. Aside from making my New Years Eve or Day holiday more enjoyable, that means very little to me in judging Jones' success. I just refuse to set the bar that low. We are Tennessee football after all!
So while the OP's scenario (8-4) doesn't sound so horrible on the surface, you are suggesting that we wake up on October 16th with a 3-4 record, 0-4 in the SEC? Looking at it through those glasses makes it far more disturbing. And then factor in the mediocrity we've seen in these first two games as part of those "wins". Look at all of the negativity surrounding this program right now at 2-0. Can you begin to fathom the outrage in that scenario? Folks will be burning down buildings and starting riots. A little hyperbole yes but maybe not in reality.
The bigger question with regards to the scenario is what will those final 5 wins be worth at that point? I really don't see anyone coming to Butch's defense in that scenario and pointing to wins over USC, TN Tech, KY, MO, and Vandy and arguing those wins as proof that the program is Ok and that we should stand pat. Fact is most fans and more importantly donors (and admittedly myself included) will "check out" in the 3-4/0-4 scenario and will certainly not be supporting Butch Jones.
It's not so much about who you are losing to but rather how the games are scheduled and not spaced out. Personally I don't think Butch has the luxury of losing to those teams while keeping his job as a result of how the schedule works out. May not be fair but I think it's the reality and certainly the reality of coaching these days.
So put me in the camp with those who believe he will be fired after the season should he lose those four games.
LET'S ALL HOPE AND PRAY WE DON'T SEE ANY OF THIS COME TO FRUITION HOWEVER.
Personally I think we go 2-2 in those games and slip up somewhere in those last 5 unfortunately finishing 9-3. I think Butch is still HC come the opener in 2017.
GO VOLS!!!
 
#103
#103
Dudleys87 said:
There isn't one top tier coach that wants to come here.
We would literally be stuck with another hopeful.
Not what Tennessee needs right now.

Debord on the other hand...
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I totally disagree. I think right now UT would be a premier option for many top coaches that are in coordinator or a touch lower tier programs...ie...Louisville/Houston..in terms of facilities and resources...

4 years ago I think your opinion was very valid. In fact it was the case. Not now.

The roster is much more healthy. No ncaa looming around. This team is and could be competitive at a high level. A winner could push them over the top. Just don't think Butch is that guy. I like him amd like what he's done thusfar. Now it's shutup and bootup and win....period
 
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#104
#104
so let's really play this out.

Strong continues to pull out Ws at Texas, making his job secure for the foreseeable future. Do we make a run at Herman when he has the least hope of actually landing his dream job at the other UT?

Or do we stick with Butch for the foreseeable future and hope he somehow gets over the hump?
 
#105
#105
VOLINHTOWN said:
So hard to answer the OP's question without seeing the substance. Two weeks ago we all assumed we'd be 2-0 at this point and we are. BUT having watched what we've seen so far it's a far more bitter 2-0 than any of us expected.
In my opinion you can throw out a virtual meaningless win against a Big 10/Big 12 #4 or #5 in the Consolation Prize Bowl. Aside from making my New Years Eve or Day holiday more enjoyable, that means very little to me in judging Jones' success. I just refuse to set the bar that low. We are Tennessee football after all!
So while the OP's scenario (8-4) doesn't sound so horrible on the surface, you are suggesting that we wake up on October 16th with a 3-4 record, 0-4 in the SEC? Looking at it through those glasses makes it far more disturbing. And then factor in the mediocrity we've seen in these first two games as part of those "wins". Look at all of the negativity surrounding this program right now at 2-0. Can you begin to fathom the outrage in that scenario? Folks will be burning down buildings and starting riots. A little hyperbole yes but maybe not in reality.
The bigger question with regards to the scenario is what will those final 5 wins be worth at that point? I really don't see anyone coming to Butch's defense in that scenario and pointing to wins over USC, TN Tech, KY, MO, and Vandy and arguing those wins as proof that the program is Ok and that we should stand pat. Fact is most fans and more importantly donors (and admittedly myself included) will "check out" in the 3-4/0-4 scenario and will certainly not be supporting Butch Jones.
It's not so much about who you are losing to but rather how the games are scheduled and not spaced out. Personally I don't think Butch has the luxury of losing to those teams while keeping his job as a result of how the schedule works out. May not be fair but I think it's the reality and certainly the reality of coaching these days.
So put me in the camp with those who believe he will be fired after the season should he lose those four games.
LET'S ALL HOPE AND PRAY WE DON'T SEE ANY OF THIS COME TO FRUITION HOWEVER.
Personally I think we go 2-2 in those games and slip up somewhere in those last 5 unfortunately finishing 9-3. I think Butch is still HC come the opener in 2017.
GO VOLS!!!
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100% agree
Starting off 0-4 in SEC will be difference. I hope it doesn't come to that but Florida is a must win for Butch and I'm sure he realizes that.
 
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#106
#106
volfanbill said:
so let's really play this out.

Strong continues to pull out Ws at Texas, making his job secure for the foreseeable future. Do we make a run at Herman when he has the least hope of actually landing his dream job at the other UT?

Or do we stick with Butch for the foreseeable future and hope he somehow gets over the hump?
Click to expand...

Strong made a home run hire at OC. He knew his butt was getting fired with another subpar season so he had to get out of his comfort zone and hire a new OC
 
#107
#107
We owe him too much money to let him go. If we go 9-4 except all of O coaching staff except Coach G to be gone
 
#108
#108
Dang guys, its two games into the season. Regardless of final score, we are 2-0...yeah we have played sloppy and the offense is looking like crap...but at the end of the day 2-0 is 2-0...
 
#109
#109
We split those 4 games, 2-2.

Florida - Win - scoreboard closer than game. We gent breaks with TO Battle.
Georgia - Win - close, go into next game gassed and beat up.
TA&M - Lose - 2 X TDs
Bama - Lose close at home
 
#110
#110
austin_vol said:
We owe him too much money to let him go. If we go 9-4 except all of O coaching staff except Coach G to be gone
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Tennessee is finally back very healthy financially. It would not be a problem at all to let him go I'm not buying that. Even if he replaced the majority of his staff Butch is too stubborn and again it's his system and philosophy
 
#112
#112
A premiere program that has the resources and the talent in place to win, but is unable to get over the hump with the current coaching staff, is a desirable destination. The worst scenario is to wait until the talent dwindles, recruiting takes a nosedive, morale plummets, donations and attendance drop... and a coaching change becomes a rebuild. We've been there, done that. Keeping Dooley that extra year really set the program back.

UT is in a prime position to hire another HC if this year goes south. It's unfathomable that we do so-- and I'm not saying we should-- but the job would be very attractive to top-tier coaches open to making a move.
 
#113
#113
The cute sayings "Brick by brick" and the rah-rah talk only go so far. The good teams in the SEC have both the talent and the coaching to win. Sadly we don't have that again this year.
 
#114
#114
volfanbill said:
so let's really play this out.

Strong continues to pull out Ws at Texas, making his job secure for the foreseeable future. Do we make a run at Herman when he has the least hope of actually landing his dream job at the other UT?

Or do we stick with Butch for the foreseeable future and hope he somehow gets over the hump?
Click to expand...

Playing this out... I give us virtually no chance of landing Herman.
#1. IF the Big 12 expands and adds UH, game over. He's staying here.
#2. UH has in recent years lost Briles to Baylor and Sumlin to A&M. They are as committed as ever to not losing a 3rd top coach. They have already committed a lot of money to him and he's already recruiting like nobody else has at UH. And keep in mind that he told the Gamecocks thanks, no thanks just last year.
#3. The only scenario in which we are going after him is one in which AGAIN the Vols have fallen on their faces within the SEC. And in the Eastern division at that. Talent aside, why would he leave to come to that? And what about UH's results this season. Should they go undefeated and be the first non-major to ever make the college football playoffs, you really think he's leaving that to come to Knoxville? Heck even if they go 11-1 and defeat another big name in a bowl game. He's leaving that for the Vols?
Lacking any ties to TN much less the SEC at all, I just don't see it. You never say never, but....
 
#115
#115
VOLINHTOWN said:
Playing this out... I give us virtually no chance of landing Herman.
#1. IF the Big 12 expands and adds UH, game over. He's staying here.
#2. UH has in recent years lost Briles to Baylor and Sumlin to A&M. They are as committed as ever to not losing a 3rd top coach. They have already committed a lot of money to him and he's already recruiting like nobody else has at UH. And keep in mind that he told the Gamecocks thanks, no thanks just last year.
#3. The only scenario in which we are going after him is one in which AGAIN the Vols have fallen on their faces within the SEC. And in the Eastern division at that. Talent aside, why would he leave to come to that? And what about UH's results this season. Should they go undefeated and be the first non-major to ever make the college football playoffs, you really think he's leaving that to come to Knoxville? Heck even if they go 11-1 and defeat another big name in a bowl game. He's leaving that for the Vols?
Lacking any ties to TN much less the SEC at all, I just don't see it. You never say never, but....
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TN has the facilities over Houston. Herman told USCe no because he wants Texas. If, if, Strong locks down his job, Herman might go looking.

If, if, Texas becomes unavailable, why would he want to fight for third place in the state with Baylor and TCU. He's a California kid with Cincy family ties.
 
#116
#116
sjt18 said:
Ah yes.... always "next year".... and blame the "staff".

That's a load of BS. Coaches who get it done show signs of getting it done early ON THE FIELD. They will win signature games within 3 years. Jones hasn't. I want him to be the answer every bit as much as you do but 9-4 with this roster will be a VERY STRONG indication that he's not. The sooner after that a change is made.... the less difficult the rebuilding will be.

Fuente is a good example. They made mistakes but showed signs of what they can be under him.
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Believe it or not, I totally agree with you. I'm trying to ride the line and let cooler heads prevail. I'm trying to be supportive but have thought quietly for a while that Butch has a very low ceiling. Great guy...I believe he wants to do well, but he's not a championship level coach. Nobody hopes more than me that I am wrong.

My point was that nobody will be able to make a convincing argument, after our recent history, to relieve a 9 win coach of his duties.
 
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#117
#117
volfanbill said:
TN has the facilities over Houston. Herman told USCe no because he wants Texas. If, if, Strong locks down his job, Herman might go looking.

If, if, Texas becomes unavailable, why would he want to fight for third place in the state with Baylor and TCU. He's a California kid with Cincy family ties.
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It's all ifs and buts, right?

While you are right I don't think facilities play a role. And certainly UH can't compete with the Vols financially. But being close to the situation I just think Herman's a different cat. He loves Texas and loves the recruiting ties he's already established. And it's just not Texas he's eyeing...Sumlin is on thin ice in College Station as well.
And last I checked Baylor and TCU have been the CLEAR #1 and #2 in the state for several years now. Texas and A&M are still tops in recruiting but that certainly has not translated to success. UH has beaten FSU and Oklahoma in back-to-back games now. Why would he think he can't be the big dog in the state while staying at UH?
At the end of the day I just don't see Tennessee being an attractive enough job to lure him from where he is or from other options he may have.
 
#118
#118
LA Vol said:
A premiere program that has the resources and the talent in place to win, but is unable to get over the hump with the current coaching staff, is a desirable destination. The worst scenario is to wait until the talent dwindles, recruiting takes a nosedive, morale plummets, donations and attendance drop... and a coaching change becomes a rebuild. We've been there, done that. Keeping Dooley that extra year really set the program back.

UT is in a prime position to hire another HC if this year goes south. It's unfathomable that we do so-- and I'm not saying we should-- but the job would be very attractive to top-tier coaches open to making a move.
Click to expand...

....and this will all happen like dominoes if Butch doesn't win this year....9 game minimum. Needs 10 or more I think. Recruits are gonna start not buying in to his BS....
 
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#119
#119
volfanbill said:
TN has the facilities over Houston. Herman told USCe no because he wants Texas. If, if, Strong locks down his job, Herman might go looking.

If, if, Texas becomes unavailable, why would he want to fight for third place in the state with Baylor and TCU. He's a California kid with Cincy family ties.
Click to expand...

I'd say he's spent 2/3 of his coaching career in the state of TX for a reason.
 
#121
#121
2 Months ago I got jumped for saying Butch would be on the Hot Seat if he lost 4 games. Where's the outrage now? LOL
 
#122
#122
madbamahater said:
Tennessee is finally back very healthy financially. It would not be a problem at all to let him go I'm not buying that. Even if he replaced the majority of his staff Butch is too stubborn and again it's his system and philosophy
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That is a problem because his system sucks IMO.

If Butch refuses to bring in a good OC to install a system that works then he needs to be put on the hot seat.

What about Shoop as HC?
 
#124
#124
Catbone said:
If we lose florida I fear the season will spiral downward
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As for the players on the field they would recover. The fans on Volnation, it would get rediculous. Only some mass injury scenario could a loss be acceptable. But as for being out coached or ill prepared, that would be a hard pill to swallow, and rightly so.
 
#125
#125
madbamahater said:
I totally disagree. I think right now UT would be a premier option for many top coaches that are in coordinator or a touch lower tier programs...ie...Louisville/Houston..in terms of facilities and resources...

4 years ago I think your opinion was very valid. In fact it was the case. Not now.

The roster is much more healthy. No ncaa looming around. This team is and could be competitive at a high level. A winner could push them over the top. Just don't think Butch is that guy. I like him amd like what he's done thusfar. Now it's shutup and bootup and win....period
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That's fair.
I'm not sold we lose to Florida, yet.
 
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