I have to. (Missouri rant)

[KBVol]

I stand by those comments. How Butch pulls in talent and how Pinkel pulls in talent are completely opposite.

Butch stuffs in as many possible signings for each year as possible. Pinkle actually tries, for better or worse, not to process kids. It's almost as if, that is saying they were wrong about the kid and/or failed to teach them the football skills. We're expecting to take about 20 in 2016.

There is a family atmosphere at Mizzou:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8uDO9HJP4bI&feature=youtu.be

This is what we do. In 14yrs, Pinkel has never had a class ranking above #21.

You can't compare the two situations....AT ALL. Pinkel has been at Mizzou for 14 years, has had his methodologies and processes in place for a very long time. He's established and has worked over years to now have the luxury to redshirt and develop players on his timetable.

Jones, on the other hand, inherited a tire fire of epic proportions less than 2 seasons ago. The reason he "stuff(ed) in as many possible signings as possible" into the program the last two years is because he's tried to turn the roster over as quickly as possible. He took advantage of what was available to him and started replacing the Sunbelt conference-type, slow-footed, below SEC level athletic players with some of the better players in the nation. He was able to sign 33 players in 2014...so he signed 33 players in 2014. He was able to sign 29 players in 2015...so he signed 29 players in 2015. Guess what?? He'll only be able to sign 17-19 players in 2016 so he'll surely be very selective, even though I can assure you that the last two classes very much fit his system and the collective profiles of the players he wants.

So, in summation, you simply cannot compare how Pinkel and Jones have gone about developing their programs over the last 2 years....they're at two very distinctly different levels/points in time in their careers with their respective teams/programs.

 

[LittleCat]

I actually respect the Mizzou program a lot. I guess it's all perspective. Mizzou really doesn't have much history. Kentucky even less. Mizzou doesn't produce a lot of in state talent. They aren't one of the flashy programs. They get players, and the coaches develop them. I don't care if it's the worst East ever, they still did well. I'd rather be the one winning a crappy division than the one losing the crappy division. From a UT standpoint, or any program like that, it's tough seeing a program like that have success in down years.

Do I think they will continue it? No. UT, UF, UGA will all be better than them soon enough. USCjr maybe if Spurrier can have a good year or two left in him. The only teams they are realistically better than are UK and Vandy. And even last year they didn't look that good at home against UK.

 

[drylo]

You can't compare the two situations....AT ALL. Pinkel has been at Mizzou for 14 years, has had his methodologies and processes in place for a very long time. He's established and has worked over years to now have the luxury to redshirt and develop players on his timetable.

Jones, on the other hand, inherited a tire fire of epic proportions less than 2 seasons ago. The reason he "stuff(ed) in as many possible signings as possible" into the program the last two years is because he's tried to turn the roster over as quickly as possible. He took advantage of what was available to him and started replacing the Sunbelt conference-type, slow-footed, below SEC level athletic players with some of the better players in the nation. He was able to sign 33 players in 2014...so he signed 33 players in 2014. He was able to sign 29 players in 2015...so he signed 29 players in 2015. Guess what?? He'll only be able to sign 17-19 players in 2016 so he'll surely be very selective, even though I can assure you that the last two classes very much fit his system and the collective profiles of the players he wants.

So, in summation, you simply cannot compare how Pinkel and Jones have gone about developing their programs over the last 2 years....they're at two very distinctly different levels/points in time in their careers with their respective teams/programs.

Nah, dude. Butch just sucks, and Pinkel's the man. Every year, UT has a billion 5-stars and get picked to win the national title, and every year, UT is terrible because Butch is a terrible coach who doesn't care about his players and just runs everybody out of the program for fun every spring.

Pinkel is just getting started. You ain't seen nothin' yet. Mizzou is just getting better and better now that they're in the SEC for real.

 

[ptcarter]

Nah, dude. Butch just sucks, and Pinkel's the man. Every year, UT has a billion 5-stars and get picked to win the national title, and every year, UT is terrible because Butch is a terrible coach who doesn't care about his players and just runs everybody out of the program for fun every spring.

Pinkel is just getting started. You ain't seen nothin' yet. Mizzou is just getting better and better now that they're in the SEC for real.

Kinda new here. Wondered what Blue Text meant. Now I don't need to ask! Thanks.

 

[TXStiger]

:lolabove: So tired that you scheduled Indiana who hadn't had a winning season in 5 years before beginning your series and avg'd just over 3 wins per year?

So "tired" that you scheduled not a SINGLE Power 5 OOC opponent this fall?
So tired that you next two "big" OOC opponents are WVU and Purdue?

You can defend some things about your program. I would agree that Pinkel has done some pretty amazing things with very average talent. But it is obvious in the extreme that Mizzou avoids strong OOC opponents. It is a pattern. It shows no sign of changing. This was true before the switch to the SEC as well.

Yeah. Congrats on beating UT in three of the lowest years in the history of the program. Further congratulations for winning the East with UT and UF both at low ebb.... of course that ebb wouldn't have been as bad if UT were playing Indiana rather than Oregon....

The real "cursing" from you will come when those two programs return to historical norm... and it is coming. That's not smack... just fact. UF and UT both have history, support, facilities, and a base of recruiting to get there. It is a matter of finding the right coach.

I haven't made up anything. The Big 12 has ALWAYS been a top heavy conference going all the way back to the Big 8 and SWC before it.

I live in MO and did in 2007. I was a witness to all of the fan fare and hype. For that matter, I was pulling for Mizzou. But the North regardless of the weakness of the south was still lame and you know that is true. You also know what kind of anomaly it was for KU to be good in football and that their success was because of overachievers and not because they were loaded with great talent. EVERY other North team that year finished with a losing record.

The combined record of the teams MU beat that year was 74-73. Sorry if that just doesn't sound that impressive from a long time fan of a team that plays in a conference that routinely has 9+ bowl eligible teams.

tl;dr

Beat us on the field instead of in February. Until then, have some pride & shut-up.

 

[sjt18]

Seriously, we're telling you the facts. There were talks with Illinois about renewing the series, but they insisted that it be a Missouri home game at St. Louis, and an Illinois home game in Chicago. We have zero desire to play in Chicago.

The series ended. However that happened is immaterial when compared to the FACT that MU had an opportunity to upgrade their OOC schedule and chose some of the worst Power 5 opponents they could find.

Interesting tidbit. kansas won't play us either. Still suffering from jilted girlfriend syndrome.

Yeah. That reaction not only from KU but some of their political leaders was pretty ridiculous. The basketball rivalry at a minimum should have been preserved.

So, you've kind of got it the other way around. These schools know it would be a loss, and when that happens, it makes it harder to recruit area kids and easier for Missouri.

That would be true except you are trying to focus on an insignificant detail while evading the major issue. Mizzou plays a lame OOC slate... they have for a long time... and are for at least the next 3 seasons.

If you want respect then two things have to happen. One is in your control. The other isn't.

First, you have to start playing teams that don't stink OOC. Good grief at least get a middling opponent. What is MU afraid of?

Second, win the SEC or even the East when it is "normal". Again, this is coming. UT is assembling talent. UF won't be down on talent long. Match that with coaching and then you have a division again on par with the West.

 

[sjt18]

tl;dr

Beat us on the field instead of in February. Until then, have some pride & shut-up.

Only a fool would so casually dismiss the link between success in February and success in the fall.

Pride? It isn't about pride. It is about rosters and trajectories. IF Jones is a good game day coach (IMO that jury is still very much out) then there is every reason that UT should not only beat MU this fall but beat them convincingly. Position group by position group, UT is now more talented and for the most part more experienced.... though a tad younger in age.

If MU beats UT this fall then that is a tremendous testimony to Pinkel and an indictment of Jones... because UT's roster is much more talented.

 

[ainge10heisman]

Not worried about Mizzou. They will soon be just another KY or Vandy to us.

I hope they have enjoyed the past 2 seasons because it's about to get real.

Mizzou will field a talented competitive team just about every year. Once we get where we are going, we should beat Mizzou more times than not, but they aren't on Vandy and Uks level. They arguably have the best coach in the SEC. Definitely a top 3 SEC coach.

 

[chargervol]

tl;dr

Beat us on the field instead of in February. Until then, have some pride & shut-up.

I have an idea, given this board is for UT fans such as myself, SJT, KB etc... Instead of telling anyone here to "shut up", why don't you hop back over to kitty land and continue to pat one another on the back for being 'kings of the county dump' that has been the east. Maybe stop by a UGA site and explain to them how great you really are.

 

[sjt18]

I actually respect the Mizzou program a lot. I guess it's all perspective. Mizzou really doesn't have much history. Kentucky even less. Mizzou doesn't produce a lot of in state talent. They aren't one of the flashy programs. They get players, and the coaches develop them. I don't care if it's the worst East ever, they still did well. I'd rather be the one winning a crappy division than the one losing the crappy division. From a UT standpoint, or any program like that, it's tough seeing a program like that have success in down years.

Do I think they will continue it? No. UT, UF, UGA will all be better than them soon enough. USCjr maybe if Spurrier can have a good year or two left in him. The only teams they are realistically better than are UK and Vandy. And even last year they didn't look that good at home against UK.

We all should respect them for what they've done and what they are... without trying to pretend they won the East of the 90's and 00's when UT, UGA, and UF were all fairly healthy as programs.

The door was open for the last two years and Mizzou stepped through it. They got a major assist from the fact that Richt has a habit of choking away the East even when he has the best team. Mizzou's '13 team was better than last year's team. Last year's team reminded me of UT's 07 team... they got the crap beat out of them by the good SEC teams they played.

Also, nothing but blind "luck" but Mizzou keeps ending up with West opponents that finish in the bottom half of the division... and probably will again this year. There's a certain advantage to playing Arkansas (even when they are relatively good) rather than Bama, Aub, or LSU.

 

[StlOx]

Only a fool would so casually dismiss the link between success in February and success in the fall.

Pride? It isn't about pride. It is about rosters and trajectories. IF Jones is a good game day coach (IMO that jury is still very much out) then there is every reason that UT should not only beat MU this fall but beat them convincingly. Position group by position group, UT is now more talented and for the most part more experienced.... though a tad younger in age.

If MU beats UT this fall then that is a tremendous testimony to Pinkel and an indictment of Jones... because UT's roster is much more talented.

Again, this is a clash between two complete opposite ways of running a program.

The key ingredient you need to examine is not recruiting classes, but what is being done after you get the kids into your program.

Pinkel has been overwhelmingly successful at developing the talent.

Talent is relative. Do you mean on paper? Do you mean signed? Those mean nothing. Its about development.

Can Butch be as successful as Pinkel as a developer of that talent. That remains to be seen.

 

[TrueOrange]

With all due respect, you guys have just represented the SECe in the SECCG each of the last 2 seasons....there are more than 2 teams (Kansas and Illinois) available to schedule for ooc games.....teams that are much better than either of those. For example, while many SEC teams have scheduled 4 awful ooc games this year (Texas a&am, Arky, LSU, Vandy, OleMiss, MissSt and yes, Mizzou), there are other teams that do a good job of finding top, recently successful teams to schedule each year....teams such as Wisconsin, Louisville, Oklahoma, FSU and Clemson).

From what I understand (not taking his side, I didn't pay attention to the argument), a lot of their OOC schedule following 2012/2013 up until this season has also been having to find opponents shorter notice to fill an extra schedule slot following the conference move.

Most of the big schools have never really been too open (or sometimes willing) to agree to scheduling future opponents too short notice (and let's also be honest, it's not like there's a recruiting gain or anything to be had playing a home and home with them...and they're a smaller brand so they wouldn't really be near a first choice for most of the bigger neutral site games). From what I understand, the games like the Syracuse game, the game @ Arkansas St, the BYU game (and maybe the Uconn game?) seem to be a result of this.

 

[sjt18]

I seem to remember you saying the exact same thing last year.

With the loss of Brantley (car wreck, broken leg) it's going to be a lot tougher. Expected Brantley to be another Shane Ray. IMO, it's the game against you guys will be the key to the season. Fortunately it's in Columbia.

Last year you won the East in spite of getting hammered by the best team in the East. It was an amazing lack of discipline on the part of UF that allowed you to win that game... and with an incredible margin.

There's nothing wrong with being opportunistic as long as you don't delude yourself into believing you're dominant.

Your roster has a lot more problems than losing Brantley and Loud. By SEC standards, you have middling talent and virtually no experience at WR. You have one RB that has proven he can play in the SEC... and lost your most dangerous playmaker. The guys behind Hansborough may be undiscovered Barry Sanders clones... but they don't look it at this point.

An offense that was pretty anemic last year in spite of playing a relatively weak schedule compared to the rest of the SEC in '14... lost most of its experienced, proven playmakers.

Pinkel is Bizarro Jones. He takes talent that matches the formula given to him by Don James, where he was OC and won two NCs.

That's true... but not that relevant because when those teams have run up against teams with talent AND good coaching... they've been beaten up. UGA wasn't even well coached and had just lost a probable Heisman RB... and thumped you. Bama beat MU by 29. The only team they beat worse was TAM.

That is what it looks like when Pinkel's "formula" runs up against a coach with elite talent... and a formula.

Saban and Pinkel were both assistants to James. You can't teach speed, you can't teach quickness. If they match up or surpass the formula's measurables they get offered, regardless of their "star value".

But that isn't even what Pinkel does in many cases. He does take underrated guys with athleticism and develop them. But on average they aren't as purely talented as higher ranked guys. They match a profile of being at a certain level athletically... and then you coach/develop them to play a role.

Mizzou wins in a very respectable way. They play their system with tremendous discipline and have sufficient athletes.

Then it becomes the coaches job to teach football skills and discipline.

I do not know if Jones has the game day/week coaching talent to beat anyone (other than Spurrier :birgits_giggle. But he does hammer home disciplined execution and development of skill well above the avg CFB HC. In UT's history the only guy I have seen that approaches him is Cutcliffe. That's why Fulmer fell off so badly without Cut.

btw- Thought I'd also pass this along. Mauk's dad has cancer. That could be a distraction or determined focus for Maty.

Having dealt with cancer in my own family just recently, I wish him nothing but the best in that regard.

 

[sjt18]

From what I understand (not taking his side, I didn't pay attention to the argument), a lot of their OOC schedule following 2012/2013 up until this season has also been having to find opponents shorter notice to fill an extra schedule slot following the conference move.

Most of the big schools have never really been too open (or sometimes willing) to agree to scheduling future opponents too short notice (and let's also be honest, it's not like there's a recruiting gain or anything to be had playing a home and home with them...and they're a smaller brand so they wouldn't really be near a first choice for most of the bigger neutral site games). From what I understand, the games like the Syracuse game, the game @ Arkansas St, the BYU game (and maybe the Uconn game?) seem to be a result of this.

After this year, their big OOC games are WVU (who is up and down) and then Purdue (a home and home I think). They're not working very hard to change the quality of their OOC schedule.

Here's what is published so far... no Oregons or OU's to be found....

MUTIGERS.COM - Official Athletic Site Official Athletic Site - Football

 

[chargervol]

Last year you won the East in spite of getting hammered by the best team in the East. It was an amazing lack of discipline on the part of UF that allowed you to win that game... and with an incredible margin.

I'm honestly not sure so I'm asking, isn't that the only 2 teams they played (Bama and UGA) with a winning conference record? And then was thumped by both?

 

[StlOx]

From what I understand (not taking his side, I didn't pay attention to the argument), a lot of their OOC schedule following 2012/2013 up until this season has also been having to find opponents shorter notice to fill an extra schedule slot following the conference move.

Most of the big schools have never really been too open (or sometimes willing) to agree to scheduling future opponents too short notice (and let's also be honest, it's not like there's a recruiting gain or anything to be had playing a home and home with them...and they're a smaller brand so they wouldn't really be near a first choice for most of the bigger neutral site games). From what I understand, the games like the Syracuse game, the game @ Arkansas St, the BYU game (and maybe the Uconn game?) seem to be a result of this.

That is true. Really think part of that is in the failed hopes of restoring the kansas rivalry on top of the conference move.

BYU and UCONN were very late additions to the schedule.

My opinion is to stop talking to kansas and embrace the future Arky rivalry.

 

[TrueOrange]

I actually respect the Mizzou program a lot. I guess it's all perspective. Mizzou really doesn't have much history. Kentucky even less. Mizzou doesn't produce a lot of in state talent. They aren't one of the flashy programs. They get players, and the coaches develop them. I don't care if it's the worst East ever, they still did well. I'd rather be the one winning a crappy division than the one losing the crappy division. From a UT standpoint, or any program like that, it's tough seeing a program like that have success in down years.

Do I think they will continue it? No. UT, UF, UGA will all be better than them soon enough. USCjr maybe if Spurrier can have a good year or two left in him. The only teams they are realistically better than are UK and Vandy. And even last year they didn't look that good at home against UK.

Not to mention, there really isn't any sort of group of talent-heavy states close enough to them to be beneficial... either bordering or having a teams they regularly play.

Kentucky's location at least the program the potential to sell itself and/or pick off some players in Ohio (or just get some players that the Ohio States and company miss)...maybe if the guy there is really good, even stretch somewhat into PA.

 

[TrueOrange]

:lolabove: So tired that you scheduled Indiana who hadn't had a winning season in 5 years before beginning your series and avg'd just over 3 wins per year?

So "tired" that you scheduled not a SINGLE Power 5 OOC opponent this fall?

So tired that you next two "big" OOC opponents are WVU and Purdue?

You can defend some things about your program. I would agree that Pinkel has done some pretty amazing things with very average talent. But it is obvious in the extreme that Mizzou avoids strong OOC opponents. It is a pattern. It shows no sign of changing. This was true before the switch to the SEC as well.

Yeah. Congrats on beating UT in three of the lowest years in the history of the program. Further congratulations for winning the East with UT and UF both at low ebb.... of course that ebb wouldn't have been as bad if UT were playing Indiana rather than Oregon....

The real "cursing" from you will come when those two programs return to historical norm... and it is coming. That's not smack... just fact. UF and UT both have history, support, facilities, and a base of recruiting to get there. It is a matter of finding the right coach.

I haven't made up anything. The Big 12 has ALWAYS been a top heavy conference going all the way back to the Big 8 and SWC before it.

I live in MO and did in 2007. I was a witness to all of the fan fare and hype. For that matter, I was pulling for Mizzou. But the North regardless of the weakness of the south was still lame and you know that is true. You also know what kind of anomaly it was for KU to be good in football and that their success was because of overachievers and not because they were loaded with great talent. EVERY other North team that year finished with a losing record.

The combined record of the teams MU beat that year was 74-73. Sorry if that just doesn't sound that impressive from a long time fan of a team that plays in a conference that routinely has 9+ bowl eligible teams.

(Sorry, I couldn't resist)

 

[KBVol]

Again, this is a clash between two complete opposite ways of running a program.

The key ingredient you need to examine is not recruiting classes, but what is being done after you get the kids into your program.

Pinkel has been overwhelmingly successful at developing the talent.

Talent is relative. Do you mean on paper? Do you mean signed? Those mean nothing. Its about development.

Can Butch be as successful as Pinkel as a developer of that talent. That remains to be seen.

Well, Pinkel has been at the same place for 14 years...he had 3 losing seasons his first 4 years at Missouri, so it took him time to get his program in place. Jones has been at UT for 2 football seasons at this point, so you simply can't compare how Pinkel is running his program, his recruiting tactics, etc at year 14 with Jones at year 2. Jones is in the final phase right now of completely turning over what was a very bad, unathletic (by SEC standards) roster. Surely you're not gonna argue that if Pinkel could sign a class full of 30 4 and 5 star players this year that he wouldn't do it.

I, and I would argue most Vol fans on here, have a tremendous amount of respect for the Missouri program under Gary Pinkel. He's done an outstanding job for the overwhelming balance of his career there...he certainly has our attention after his first 2 years in our conference. But make no mistake, he's done it in large part vs a very down SECe, whose 2 traditional powers, Tennessee and Florida, have gone through two of the worst periods in their program's respective histories. Just a matter of time before they sit atop the division again and the excellent recruiting (on UTs part) that some of you guys are trying to dismiss and even denigrate, will play a major part in the rise.

 

[sjt18]

Again, this is a clash between two complete opposite ways of running a program.

The key ingredient you need to examine is not recruiting classes, but what is being done after you get the kids into your program.

Pinkel has been overwhelmingly successful at developing the talent.

Didn't say he wasn't. But what you continue to ignore is that not all of the players he is getting who will end up playing a significant role have a high top end. They play roles around the guys with the higher top end. That works to get you to a middle or 2nd tier level. The only time when that would have been good enough to win the SECE since divisional play began... is the last two years. UF and UT have had some dips during that period but neither has fallen as low as they've been over the past few seasons nor have they ever been weak at the same time.

Maybe both are down for good or at least a good long time... but I wouldn't count on it if I were you.

Talent is relative. Do you mean on paper?

No. I mean the physical and mental capacity to play. There are other things that impact performance on the field that you've done a good job pointing to... development, experience, et al. But in the end, MU is not now getting massive numbers of guys with the highest top end potential. Getting all of their potential makes up for it... but only to the point where an opponent does so with a more "talented" player.

Do you mean signed? Those mean nothing. Its about development.

Hansborough has some talent. He has been developed and coached very well. He will still never be 6'3", 240, while running around or just under a 4.4 forty like Hurd (iirc he had a sub-4.4 laser timed forty as a recruit). You can coach and develop Mauk until eternity... but he's never going to be a Cam Newton or even Dak Prescott. Every player has a high end cap on their potential. Even if Mizzou does a great job of development (and they do)... it isn't enough if the opponent develops as well but gets more talent.

Can Butch be as successful as Pinkel as a developer of that talent. That remains to be seen.

Please take this with full respect to your opinion. I have been one of the more vocal critics of Jones here and have fought the masses for it. But IMHO, the one thing Jones does that is elite... even better than recruiting... is development.

The question that remains is if he has the game day/week talent to compete with Pinkel, Saban, Malzahn, et al.

 

[TrueOrange]

That is true. Really think part of that is in the failed hopes of restoring the kansas rivalry on top of the conference move.

BYU and UCONN were very late additions to the schedule.

My opinion is to stop talking to kansas and embrace the future Arky rivalry.

Maybe, but I think the powers that be at your school had to know how this would play out from the start.

That said, while I'm all for teams embracing border rivalries (like the one potentially there with Arkansas) Kansas should really get off its horse about playing you guys again. Historic border or same-state rivalries like yours with Kansas and Texas-Texas A&M should never really stop playing (outside of the hatred of fans reaching levels that compromise safety).

 

[sjt18]

That is true. Really think part of that is in the failed hopes of restoring the kansas rivalry on top of the conference move.

BYU and UCONN were very late additions to the schedule.

My opinion is to stop talking to kansas and embrace the future Arky rivalry.

KU would make your OOC slate even more laughable unless you added another winner each year. I'm in a minority btw in that I HATE the every year rivalry games. It always creates an unfair disadvantage for the SEC's top 6 winning programs: Bama, UT, UGA, Aub, LSU, and UF.

 

[sjt18]

Last year you won the East in spite of getting hammered by the best team in the East. It was an amazing lack of discipline on the part of UF that allowed you to win that game... and with an incredible margin.

I'm honestly not sure so I'm asking, isn't that the only 2 teams they played (Bama and UGA) with a winning conference record? And then was thumped by both?

You are correct. The combined SEC record of their West opponents was 5-11. They finished 6th and 7th in the West. The combined record of UT's West opponents by comparison was 12-4 finishing 1st and 3rd.

Nothing they can do about it... but it does diminish how "great" they can claim to have been.

 

[Wylo]

I don't get the Mizzou hate. If UT had won the East the last two years, the crap talking on this board and by UT fans would actually be able to be seen from space.

So they really came from relative obscurity and had success. They've earned every bit of trash talk. Are they elite? No. But only 2 or 3 are in this league.

If UT went to ANY other league and did what Mizzou has done, we'd all be riding the magic Orange kool aid high to Valhalla.

Let them talk. Enjoy the fact that at least it isn't Florida or Georgia fans for a bit.

 

[chargervol]

You are correct. The combined SEC record of their West opponents was 5-11. They finished 6th and 7th in the West. The combined record of UT's West opponents by comparison was 12-4 finishing 1st and 3rd.

Nothing they can do about it... but it does diminish how "great" they can claim to have been.

I do think Pinkel develops talent well but that makes these conversations more confusing. As I kept reading, I noticed you and the others commend Mizzou for a good job - in the situation that was presented to them. I saw multiple compliments of Pinkels development program. I just eventually became confused as to what other "pat on the back" he is searching for. If they had won either seccg, or beaten their most talented opponents, they would have received the appreciation they seem to be seeking so desperately.