I am impressed.

#51
#51
rjd970 said:
You're right, I am confused. Who exactly did these deferred retention bonuses go to? The ones that worked there last year, or the new talent coming in to clean the mess up?

Are you saying that everybody in the financial products division is completely new, and had nothing to do with the collapse of the company? It's my understanding that the big dollar bonuses went to the executives, including those that oversaw the financial products division.
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You're failing to see that the instruments that imperiled AIG were put into place well before 2008. The guys that got bonuses either had contracts or made the firm a truckload of money. Those who took on the credit default paper no longer exist, nor do their bosses.
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#52
#52
BigPapaVol said:
You're failing to see that the instruments that imperiled AIG were put into place well before 2008. The guys that got bonuses either had contracts or made the firm a truckload of money. Those who took on the credit default paper no longer exist, nor do their bosses.
Posted via VolNation Mobile
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lynch 'em, lynch 'em all, or just hire them to be assistants for TG
 
#53
#53
AIG Executive said:
"None of us should be cheated of our payments any more than a plumber should be cheated after he has fixed the pipes, but a careless electrician causes a fire that burns down the house."
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That is from former AIG Executive Jake DeSantis in his resignation letter. He fails to realize that both the plumber and electrician work for the same company, and that company bottomed out.
 
#54
#54
DC Vol said:
That is from former AIG Executive Jake DeSantis in his resignation letter. He fails to realize that both the plumber and electrician work for the same company, and that company bottomed out.
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Exactly. He's making it seem like Maytag executives are losing their bonus because GE made a bad washing machine.
 
#55
#55
DC Vol said:
That is from former AIG Executive Jake DeSantis in his resignation letter. He fails to realize that both the plumber and electrician work for the same company, and that company bottomed out.
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if said company was still in existance as is AIG, I'm sure the plumber would have received his salary.
 
#56
#56
droski said:
if said company was still in existance as is AIG, I'm sure the plumber would have received his salary.
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Companies that lose as much money as AIG did, regardless of reason, don't stay in business for long.

AIG, as a company, took risks and they didn't pay out in the long run. They succeeded as a company, they fail as a company. And are you really defending an executive at a company that posted almost $62,000,000,000 in losses in 3 months?


Also, if the company was held liable, it probably wouldn't be around. Especially if, in the AIG parallel, it was found to have the problem across all built homes. That company should absolutely be run out of town... if the plumbing really was good, the plumbers can find employment elsewhere.
 
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#57
#57
DC Vol said:
Companies that lose as much money as AIG did, regardless of reason, don't stay in business for long.

AIG, as a company, took risks and they didn't pay out in the long run. They succeeded as a company, they fail as a company. And are you really defending an executive at a company that posted almost $62,000,000,000 in losses in 3 months?
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"executive" is a lose term in the financial industry. Titles are thrown around like candy. I'm a "senior vice president" at my firm. I have zero say over the management of my firm. does that make me an "executive?"

people are just pissed that other people make a lot more money than they do doing things they don't understand.
 
#58
#58
DC Vol said:
if the plumbing really was good, the plumbers can find employment elsewhere.
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and this is exactly what is happening because of this. now AIG is filled with a bunch of lousy plummers no one else wants. the theory that these people are unemployable anywhere besides AIG is absolutely laughable. anyone that creates the type of revenues to deserve multi mil bonuses will find a job in 10 seconds by just answering the phone and talking to recruiters.
 
#59
#59
droski said:
"executive" is a lose term in the financial industry. Titles are thrown around like candy. I'm a "senior vice president" at my firm. I have zero say over the management of my firm. does that make me an "executive?"

people are just pissed that other people make a lot more money than they do doing things they don't understand.
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Well, the (albeit idealized) outlook of corporations is this:

You sail as a ship. You sink as a ship. The captain goes down with the ship.


Before I address this, I wanted to ensure you were aiming this at me.
 
#60
#60
DC Vol said:
Well, the (albeit idealized) outlook of corporations is this:

You sail as a ship. You sink as a ship. The captain goes down with the ship.


Before I address this, I wanted to ensure you were aiming this at me.
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Yes but the ship has been saved and clearly you still need a crew.

No not aiming it at you at all. I am aiming it at those 'outraged' by wall street compensation.
 
#61
#61
DC Vol said:
Well, the (albeit idealized) outlook of corporations is this:

You sail as a ship. You sink as a ship. The captain goes down with the ship.


Before I address this, I wanted to ensure you were aiming this at me.
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if that were true, Jeffery Immelt would have been Kraken-food by now after driving GE into the ground.
 
#62
#62
droski said:
and this is exactly what is happening because of this. now AIG is filled with a bunch of lousy plummers no one else wants. the theory that these people are unemployable anywhere besides AIG is absolutely laughable. anyone that creates the type of revenues to deserve multi mil bonuses will find a job in 10 seconds by just answering the phone and talking to recruiters.
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Life sucks for them, then. Collect an unemployment check like hundreds of thousands of other folks in this country that have busted their asses only to get laid off, or outsourced because a bunch of corporate upper crusts wanted bigger bonuses or a shiny new corporate plane.

Honestly? If they turn AIG around, and do so with integrity (I know, again with the ideals) they deserve every cent of taxpayer money. Up to that point? They're working to keep their job. Just like almost everyone else in this country, and that's what they don't want.
 
#63
#63
DC Vol said:
Life sucks for them, then. Collect an unemployment check like hundreds of thousands of other folks in this country that have busted their asses only to get laid off, or outsourced because a bunch of corporate upper crusts wanted bigger bonuses or a shiny new corporate plane.

Honestly? If they turn AIG around, and do so with integrity (I know, again with the ideals) they deserve every cent of taxpayer money. Up to that point? They're working to keep their job. Just like almost everyone else in this country, and that's what they don't want.
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i don't think you understand. They majority wouldnt' be collecting unemployment if AIG went under. They would be generated said revenues and collecting bonuses at another firm and many i know are already doing so. THe said "thousands of other folks in this country" just aren't as valuable as these people from a revenue and monatary point of view. This hyperbole of all these executives "making millions while losing billions" probably is a handful of people total in the entire financial industry considering the overwhelming majority have already been fired and we weren't talking about a lot of people in the first place. at citi for instance the division that lost the majority of the money was 12 friggin people. the other 10,000 people generating big money should be given the middle finger?
 
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#64
#64
MG1968 said:
if that were true, Jeffery Immelt would have been Kraken-food by now after driving GE into the ground.
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Note (albeit idealized).


Capitalism relies on earnings for success and losses for failures in order to keep things competitive.

If you fail to be rational and throw caution out the wind on known risky ventures, you deserve every piece of gravel you eat.
 
#65
#65
if compensation is guaranteed by contract, what do you do then? the proper course is to renegotiate the contract, not froth at the mouth in feigned indignation, organize bus tours of AIG executives' homes, and threaten to publicly release the names of those receiving bonuses.
 
#66
#66
droski said:
i don't think you understand. They majority wouldnt' be collecting unemployment if AIG went under. They would be generated said revenues and collecting bonuses at another firm. THe said "thousands of other folks in this country" just aren't as valuable as these people.
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What determines their greater value?
 
#67
#67
DC Vol said:
What determines their greater value?
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the amount of money they generate for the company. A decent options trader can easily generate $10 mil a year in revenues for a firm regardless of the economy. What does the average tellar at B of A generate? anything? it might sound like i'm crapping on the little guy, but the fact is the little guy isn't what is keeping these companies afloat.
 
#68
#68
droski said:
the amount of money they generate for the company. A decent options trader can easily generate $10 mil a year in revenues for a firm regardless of the economy. What does the average tellar at B of A generate? anything?
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depends on how much cleavage she's showing and if it's worth a second, or third look.
 
#69
#69
MG1968 said:
if compensation is guaranteed by contract, what do you do then? the proper course is to renegotiate the contract, not froth at the mouth in feigned indignation, organize bus tours of AIG executives' homes, and threaten to publicly release the names of those receiving bonuses.
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Was it ever hinted this is not the best outcome? They're receiving taxpayer money now, not skimming the top of AIG earnings. Different ballgame now that the government is in 80% control.


Are you saying that the recipients of government money should not be accountable? I do government contracting, and every cent is audited and monitored... this should be no different.
 
#70
#70
MG1968 said:
if compensation is guaranteed by contract, what do you do then? the proper course is to renegotiate the contract, not froth at the mouth in feigned indignation, organize bus tours of AIG executives' homes, and threaten to publicly release the names of those receiving bonuses.
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if the bonus is guaranteed by contract what does that make it? it makes it salary. AIG's mistake obviously was refering to it as a bonus. I still can't understand why the same employee could make $2 mil a year in salary and that is ok, but if he makes $250k in salary and $1 mil in a bonus than he is a bastard.
 
#71
#71
DC Vol said:
Was it ever hinted this is not the best outcome? They're receiving taxpayer money now, not skimming the top of AIG earnings. Different ballgame now that the government is in 80% control.


Are you saying that the recipients of government money should not be accountable? I do government contracting, and every cent is audited and monitored... this should be no different.
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are you really trying to tell me that there is no abuse in government contracting?
 
#72
#72
DC Vol said:
Was it ever hinted this is not the best outcome? They're receiving taxpayer money now, not skimming the top of AIG earnings. Different ballgame now that the government is in 80% control.


Are you saying that the recipients of government money should not be accountable? I do government contracting, and every cent is audited and monitored... this should be no different.
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Tim Geithner knew about the "bonuses". The Congress knew about the "bonuses" and protected them with legislation. Obama knew about the bonuses and didn't care until populist outrage began to be fomented by the press.

Are you saying that the government can break it's contractual obligations at it's discretion?
 
#73
#73
droski said:
if the bonus is guaranteed by contract what does that make it? it makes it salary. AIG's mistake obviously was refering to it as a bonus. I still can't understand why the same employee could make $2 mil a year in salary and that is ok, but if he makes $250k in salary and $1 mil in a bonus than he is a bastard.
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It's a fundamental shift from profit skimming to feeling entitled to taxpayer money after your company royally sh$ts the bed.


Again, if it's their mistake for poorly structuring their contract... why is that a problem? If a dolt doesn't read his/her contract on a mortgage, why should you, me or anyone else feel sympathy for them when it backfires. I'm meticulous, contractually speaking, for that exact reason.
 
#74
#74
DC Vol said:
It's a fundamental shift from profit skimming to feeling entitled to taxpayer money after your company royally sh$ts the bed.


Again, if it's their mistake for poorly structuring their contract... why is that a problem? If a dolt doesn't read his/her contract on a mortgage, why should you, me or anyone else feel sympathy for them when it backfires. I'm meticulous, contractually speaking, for that exact reason.
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it's the employees mistake for signing a guaranteed contract?
 
#75
#75
MG1968 said:
Tim Geithner knew about the "bonuses". The Congress knew about the "bonuses" and protected them with legislation. Obama knew about the bonuses and didn't care until populist outrage began to be fomented by the press.

Are you saying that the government can break it's contractual obligations at it's discretion?
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Whoa whoa whoa. Did I ever say I agree with the way the government is addressing this situation currently? I haven't said anything about Geithner, Obama, Congress... or any govenrment entity... except the taxpayers (who are fitting the bill for this)

I'm addressing the disconnect between this particular executive and those that share his PoV and my PoV towards this specific set of occurances.
 
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