Hurd/Kamara ranked 3rd/4th Best Backs In SEC by PFF

[KBVol]

Florida was Hurd's best game given the caliber of opposition.

Best overall was Northwestern imo.

So....his best games were....

1. 3.6 ypc vs Florida (btw, Pro Football Focus and you agree here, haha)

2. Vs Northwestern......don't ever, EVER, belittle someone's argument or build yours around the level of competition played if you're gonna say Northwestern here. You've gotta be kidding.......130 yards, 5.4 ypc vs what looked essentially like glorified highschool team.....you've gotta be kidding.

Do you not see the irony here? You're being too smart by half. If you're gonna point to Jalen's 102/3.6 game vs Florida, I'll bring up LF's 180/5.4 against that same Gators defense. And if you bring up his 130/5.4 game vs NW, I'll point to LF's 200+ yd games vs Syracuse, Eastern Mich and Texas Tech.....not to mention his 159 vs Mississippi State or 228 vs Auburn...and since those 2 games were vs SEC competition, I'm sure you'll concede the argument now,right, since it wasn't vs lowly ACC teams.

 

[KBVol]

Fournette is the best running back in the nation. He is a faster Adrian Peterson. He could have played in the NFL his freshman year.

Thanks for weighing in Travis. Your opinion on this subject certainly means more than anybody else's on here. It's not that Hurd isn't outstanding IMO.....it's just that there are a (small) handful of backs this year that are better....chief among them being Fournette, who is the best. And, IMHO, even if Jalen gets the school rushing record, he still has a lot to show to be put among the best Tennessee RBs all-time. I can think of 6-7 very quickly that I'd put above him.

 

[Remy]

I saw Fournette's line lay an egg, though in fairness AL didn't much care about anything other than getting to the backfield since they, correctly, assumed all one has to do to beat LSU is contain Fournette.

And again, if you're making such comparison's why not include all the other games played against like opponents?

The biggest difference is Fournette's thoroughly vetted superiority once in the 2nd level of the defense. Hurd's been working hard to address this and let's hope it pays dividends. If so the gap will close.

2 things here, I personally think Fournette is a better RB than is Hurd. That said he is not head and shoulders over Hurd IMO, I give him an edge in break away speed. IF and that is a big IF Bama's D plan was simply get to the backfield against LSU, they should have and could have done the same thing against us! They did not or could not as our RBs were more effective than LSU for $#@n sure and even more effective than the Bama RBs containing the Heisman winner which team 119 outrushed at Tuscaloosa. Frankly, last year's OL at LSU was better than our team 119's was which is a major reason why Fournette's overall campaign against common opponents was better. But don't get it twisted, Fournette is a very good RB, great? Hell naw when you exposed as he was last year by the Bama D whereas Hurd was not.

 

[Loweboy]

Bad data IMO.

After I saw LSU's OC run Fornette right into the teeth of Bama's wall of a front 7 for 0 yards ... I thought "no way they stick with this game plan". But play after play after play after play they did EXACTLY that. That had to be the worst static offensive game plan I've seen in years. I don't care if Dickerson, Payton, Peterson, Dorsett or any other NFL HoFer would have been in that backfield in their prime ... they would have gotten killed.

That disaster went on series after series for nearly the entire game. I put 100% (yes 100) of the fault for LFs performance in that game on the coaches backs. They had an entire off-weak to scheme and prepared absolutely nothing. They somehow assumed their OL and awesome RB were going to overpower what would be considered one of the best front 7s (the pro-style group) in the history of CFB.

TNs scheme forced Bama into playing their lighter/faster (spread group) front 7 and came up with an offensive scheme in their bye week that nearly toppled the National Champs in their own house.

Comparing the RB position for those 2 games is like apples and oranges.

I would rate the SEC backs ...
1. Fornette
2. Hurd

... Chubb @ 10-12 due to the question of recovery.

Alabama has a great defense, but struggles against a mobile quarterback (Tennessee and Clemson). Running a spread offense with a mobile quarterback will open up holes for the running game. LSU tried to go power against a tough Alabama defense. Fournette never had a chance with a stacked box.

 

[billcox0625]

Hurd 4 Heisman!

 

[hndog609]

2 things here, I personally think Fournette is a better RB than is Hurd. That said he is not head and shoulders over Hurd IMO, I give him an edge in break away speed. IF and that is a big IF Bama's D plan was simply get to the backfield against LSU, they should have and could have done the same thing against us! They did not or could not as our RBs were more effective than LSU for $#@n sure and even more effective than the Bama RBs containing the Heisman winner which team 119 outrushed at Tuscaloosa. Frankly, last year's OL at LSU was better than our team 119's was which is a major reason why Fournette's overall campaign against common opponents was better. But don't get it twisted, Fournette is a very good RB, great? Hell naw when you exposed as he was last year by the Bama D whereas Hurd was not.

AL focusing on Hurd like they did vs LSU would have resulted in a big dose of Dobbs and they knew it. In fact, let's explore that line a thought a bit.

Fournette had 3 games where he was held to under 5ypc. LSU lost all 3. Hurd had 4 games where he didn't even manage 4ypc (itself a problematic stat for comparative purposes) but TN still won 3 of those games. Point being a defense successful in limiting Hurd doesn't mean stopping TN but manage that against LSU (at least last year) and you've essentially stopped LSU. Defenses know this and play it that way.

And this "better line" argument is mitigated by Fournette leading the nation in broken tackles. And in case it's slipped people's minds that stat (along with all the others) includes the fact that Fournette played one less game than everybody else as LSU's first game was canceled.

 

[The Artful Dodger]

I'd take them as well....in large part because of Kamara.

Yup, really hope the coaches use him in as many ways as possible this year. Not saying he is better than Hurd, because they are so different in their approach, but Kamara is the biggest home run threat we have on the team. The next two biggest "Home Run" threats might be on defense (IE Sutton; Berry). If Hurd increases Top end speed this year than I think there is a good chance he sneaks into the end of the first round in next years draft (2nd or 3rd, maybe 4th off the board), which is saying a lot considering how much the NFL values RB's these day and how many quality backs there will be in next years draft.

 

[The Artful Dodger]

I read an article on PFF a few weeks ago that said Hurd's Yards Before Contact 1.8 was the lowest in the country. I sure want to see him running downhill this fall and not out of the shotgun. Hurd made their Top 10 Performances in the SEC list:


#8. Tennessee RB Jalen Hurd vs. Florida, Week 4

It was easy for Hurd’s performance to get lost in the aftermath of the Vols’ fourth-quarter collapse against the Gators, as they blew a 13-point fourth-quarter lead to lose 28-27. Even more so, the box score couldn’t really capture Hurd’s game, as he needed 28 carries to produce his 102 yards and two touchdowns (3.6 yards per carry). But the PFF grades did capture it, as Hurd produced his highest grade of the year by forcing 11 missed tackles and 88 yards after contact. He overcame some poor play from his offensive line and a dominant performance from Florida’s defensive front (DE Jonathan Bullard had eight run stops and earned his highest grade of the season). We like Hurd’s backfield mate Alvin Kamara as a potential Heisman candidate, but Hurd’s impact on the Tennessee offense is significant, and he’s one of the best returning power backs in the entire country.

Here's more praise for Hurd/Kamara.

https://www.profootballfocus.com/college-biggest-reason-for-hope-for-every-sec-team/
https://www.profootballfocus.com/college-football-top-10-returning-units-in-the-sec/
https://www.profootballfocus.com/co...ckle-in-college-football-fournette-mccaffrey/

Wow, Kamara as a Heisman candidate?

 

[pimo1]

Fournette I don't think you can argue against. However it remains to be seen if Chubb can come back from that injury and be the RB he was before. In the meantime, I'm perfectly happy with who we have in our backfield.

It all depends on his health. But, if Chubb is fully healthy it is a valid discussion of UGA or UT having the best 1-2 punch and RB in the country.

We know what both UGA backs can do when called to carry the load we don't know about Kamara though all the signs say he is as good as anyone. I do think the situation will play in his favor though come draft day NFL teams put a premium lately on guys with less miles on the tires.

 

[The Artful Dodger]

That's what I was thinking. Seemed like that was his best game of the year.

Yup, that defense was supposed to stifle the running game and force Dobbs to throw the ball. But Hurd broke numerous tackles and gained the most yards of any back Mizzou played last year. It was also the most total rushing yards Mizzou gave up last year. Don't understand that assessment.

 

[The Artful Dodger]

Oh lord, PFF is the bible. They explained why Hurd got that grade in the Missouri game. Just because its over your head doesn't mean they don't know what they're doing. :loco:

Yea they said he fumbled and was didn't have a good game blocking. Maybe it's their grading system that I have a problem with, because anyone who watched that ugly game knows that Hurd was the determining factor. His smash-mouth running style was perfect for that slugfest.

 

[The Artful Dodger]

That's what I've been saying. As long as our o-line stays healthy, we'll finally see what Hurd is truly capable of.

He's been hurt the last 2 years because of our lack of experienced TALENT along the o-line.

Was Hurd hurt last year? The only time I remember him being hurt was at the beginning of the 2014 Vandy game.

 

[The Artful Dodger]

Lol!!! The Northwestern game?? Can't believe you posted this.

Don't get me wrong. There is no universe in which Jalen Hurd is better than Fournette. But don't discount our rushing performance against NW so easily. That was the 19th ranked rushing defense in the country, which held McCaffery to 66 yards and Stanford as a whole to less than 90 yards rushing. This wasn't an isolated thing either as NW held some other good rushing teams to well below their season average. (PSU 130 yards; Neb 82 yards) Michigan and Iowa gashed them, but overall Tennessee ran all over a very respectable rush defense.

 

[The Artful Dodger]

Thanks for weighing in Travis. Your opinion on this subject certainly means more than anybody else's on here. It's not that Hurd isn't outstanding IMO.....it's just that there are a (small) handful of backs this year that are better....chief among them being Fournette, who is the best. And, IMHO, even if Jalen gets the school rushing record, he still has a lot to show to be put among the best Tennessee RBs all-time. I can think of 6-7 very quickly that I'd put above him.

6 or 7? I don't know about that. Hurd might not be tops on the list yet but I think he is better than 7th or 8th on the all-time list. Who would you put him behind?

 

[The Artful Dodger]

AL focusing on Hurd like they did vs LSU would have resulted in a big dose of Dobbs and they knew it. In fact, let's explore that line a thought a bit.

Fournette had 3 games where he was held to under 5ypc. LSU lost all 3. Hurd had 4 games where he didn't even manage 4ypc (itself a problematic stat for comparative purposes) but TN still won 3 of those games. Point being a defense successful in limiting Hurd doesn't mean stopping TN but manage that against LSU (at least last year) and you've essentially stopped LSU. Defenses know this and play it that way.

And this "better line" argument is mitigated by Fournette leading the nation in broken tackles. And in case it's slipped people's minds that stat (along with all the others) includes the fact that Fournette played one less game than everybody else as LSU's first game was canceled.

Great points. Agree with everything you said. I think it also helps to point out how far ahead Dobbs is when compared to Harris. Dobbs gets a lot of criticism but he is heads and shoulders better than Harris.

 

[TennesseeTopHat]

Anyone else think these ratings they come up with are ridiculous? Like the methodology and naming of them? Just people looking for stuff to do I guess.

 

[KBVol]

Don't get me wrong. There is no universe in which Jalen Hurd is better than Fournette. But don't discount our rushing performance against NW so easily. That was the 19th ranked rushing defense in the country, which held McCaffery to 66 yards and Stanford as a whole to less than 90 yards rushing. This wasn't an isolated thing either as NW held some other good rushing teams to well below their season average. (PSU 130 yards; Neb 82 yards) Michigan and Iowa gashed them, but overall Tennessee ran all over a very respectable rush defense.

I'm big on stats as objective measurements telling a large part of the story, especially with a good sample size over time. However, with all due respect Dodge, I think we all know what we saw with respect to our athletes vs NW's athletes....it was men vs boys.

As far as them holding Penn State and Nebraska down rushing the ball...Penn State last year was ranked #105 and Nebraska #52 in rushing offense. PSU has a great young RB but their OL rivaled our 2014 OL...not good.

Stanford is the only one that was a headscratcher. The only way I can explain that one is that it was the first game of the year and NW was ready to play and Stanford wasn't. I'd be willing to wager that if they'd played later in the season, the outcome on both the scoreboard and stat sheet would've been much different.

And of course, we agree about Hurd and LF. Jalen is very, very good.....Fournette is just better.

 

[Remy]

I'm big on stats as objective measurements telling a large part of the story, especially with a good sample size over time. However, with all due respect Dodge, I think we all know what we saw with respect to our athletes vs NW's athletes....it was men vs boys.

As far as them holding Penn State and Nebraska down rushing the ball...Penn State last year was ranked #105 and Nebraska #52 in rushing offense last year. PSU has a great young RB but their OL rivaled our 2014 OL...not good.

Stanford is the only one that was a headscratcher. The only way I can explain that one is that it was the first game of the year and NW was ready to play and Stanford wasn't. I'd be willing to wager that if they'd played later in the season, the outcome on both the scoreboard and stat sheet would've been much different.

Gents it could be Stanford came out promoting their QB for the Heisman, Hogan, which they were heavily. They were sold as a staff he was the guy and their whole offensive scheme and plan for their 2015 season was built around and about Hogan. What happened was MCCaffrey benefited from teams focusing totally on stopping or limiting Hogan to beat Stanford. Their NW game being their opener sort of set that thinking for their opponents until about mid season where DCs and the press started understanding the Stanford offense was now working through McCaffrey. Hogan became almost an afterthought and the rest is history. Will McCaffrey have the same or better sophomore season as he had last year? I have $s saying he won't now that he is THE guy to stop for Stanford. Again McCaffrey is a very good player, but he was behind a smokescreen about half their season, let's see how he performs when he is THE guy like Henry, Chubb, Hurd, and Fournette have been the past couple of years.

 

[Titans4Vols]

Yea they said he fumbled and was didn't have a good game blocking. Maybe it's their grading system that I have a problem with, because anyone who watched that ugly game knows that Hurd was the determining factor. His smash-mouth running style was perfect for that slugfest.

Their grading system certainly has it's issues, but I don't pay much attention to that aspect. I read their articles and whatnot for their in-depth statistics(even the NFL and now a bunch of college programs use them for that). Stuff like missed tackles forced, hurries/sacks given up, etc isn't easy stuff to find or track, I appreciate them for that.

 

[KBVol]

6 or 7? I don't know about that. Hurd might not be tops on the list yet but I think he is better than 7th or 8th on the all-time list. Who would you put him behind?

1. Chuck Webb
2. Reggie Cobb
3. Jamal Lewis
4. James Stewart
5. Travis Henry
6. Charlie Garner
7. Perhaps Jay Graham
8. Perhaps Travis Stephens
9. Perhaps Johnnie Jones

I value a RB who can both get tough, inside yards while having game-breaking ability. All the guys I listed above had both in spades (Henry wasn't a sprinter, was the least likely to break off a long run, but is better between the tackles, breaking tackles, and generally was much harder to bring down IMO)

 

[The Artful Dodger]

I'm big on stats as objective measurements telling a large part of the story, especially with a good sample size over time. However, with all due respect Dodge, I think we all know what we saw with respect to our athletes vs NW's athletes....it was men vs boys.

As far as them holding Penn State and Nebraska down rushing the ball...Penn State last year was ranked #105 and Nebraska #52 in rushing offense. PSU has a great young RB but their OL rivaled our 2014 OL...not good.

Stanford is the only one that was a headscratcher. The only way I can explain that one is that it was the first game of the year and NW was ready to play and Stanford wasn't. I'd be willing to wager that if they'd played later in the season, the outcome on both the scoreboard and stat sheet would've been much different.

And of course, we agree about Hurd and LF. Jalen is very, very good.....Fournette is just better.

Yea. I don't think NW had near the same caliber athletes that Tennessee had. But a it was still a good defense, which can prob be contributed mostly to Fitzgerald and his defensive acumen. I would put NW's defense as slightly above the average defense we face last year. Not as good as Bama, UF, Mizzou, UGA, or OU but better than USCe, UK. I would put NW on par with Vandy or Arky's defense last year, Very well-disciplined but lacking in talent.

 

[The Artful Dodger]

Their grading system certainly has it's issues, but I don't pay much attention to that aspect. I read their articles and whatnot for their in-depth statistics(even the NFL and now a bunch of college programs use them for that). Stuff like missed tackles forced, hurries/sacks given up, etc isn't easy stuff to find or track, I appreciate them for that.

Yea, I have noticed that PFF has become much more popular in recent years. Doesn't surprise me though as most sports are starting to prefer more statistics based analytics.

 

[Vol464]

Thanks for weighing in Travis. Your opinion on this subject certainly means more than anybody else's on here. It's not that Hurd isn't outstanding IMO.....it's just that there are a (small) handful of backs this year that are better....chief among them being Fournette, who is the best. And, IMHO, even if Jalen gets the school rushing record, he still has a lot to show to be put among the best Tennessee RBs all-time. I can think of 6-7 very quickly that I'd put above him.

So...you think VFL34 knows more than D4H?

😂

 

[The Artful Dodger]

1. Chuck Webb
2. Reggie Cobb
3. Jamal Lewis
4. James Stewart
5. Travis Henry
6. Charlie Garner
7. Perhaps Jay Graham
8. Perhaps Travis Stephens
9. Perhaps Johnnie Jones

I value a RB who can both get tough, inside yards while having game-breaking ability. All the guys I listed above had both in spades (Henry wasn't a sprinter, was the least likely to break off a long run, but is better between the tackles, breaking tackles, and generally was much harder to bring down IMO)

Its all subjective but I find it interesting that you put a guy that only played 1 season and 1 game of the second season, as #1 all-time. Based off of potential, I could see Webb being near the top, but I can't put a player who basically only played one year on top. I can see Hurd as 4th or 5th on the all-time list Before the start of this season. Not sure which order but I would put Webb, Stephens, Henry, and Lewis in the top spots. I think a lot of these rankings are based on nostalgia or when you started watching/loving the Vols. Fans are gonna Somewhat prefer the RB that was from an era where they first became Vol fans. I don't know if there is a saying but it seems that the longer its been since a player has played the more respect he gets. Players legends grow as time passes.

 

[KBVol]

Its all subjective but I find it interesting that you put a guy that only played 1 season and 1 game of the second season, as #1 all-time. Based off of potential, I could see Webb being near the top, but I can't put a player who basically only played one year on top. I can see Hurd as 4th or 5th on the all-time list Before the start of this season. Not sure which order but I would put Webb, Stephens, Henry, and Lewis in the top spots. I think a lot of these rankings are based on nostalgia or when you started watching/loving the Vols. Fans are gonna Somewhat prefer the RB that was from an era where they first became Vol fans. I don't know if there is a saying but it seems that the longer its been since a player has played the more respect he gets. Players legends grow as time passes.

Definitely subjective. But I can tell you for sure that in other RB threads over the past months and even years, when the subject of the best RB comes up, a whole lotta VNers share my sentiment on Webb. I was in the stadium when Webb shredded OleMiss for 294 yards and of course I recall his 250 yd performance in the Cotton Bowl. To me it's him, Lewis and Henry as the 3 best....then probably Garner. I'm not taking longevity into account, obviously, but rather ability as a pure runner with the best combination of speed, power, agility and game-breaking ability. Each were game changers, each more talented and just better than what Jalen has shown thus far IMHO.

As far as my list, it wasn't necessarily in order. For example, I don't think Cobb is the 2nd best all time per se...just started listing them as they came to mind.

And you're probably right about each fan favoring players from their era, players they saw up close. But I've been a fan since the early 1970s, have seen a lot of Tennessee's best players and running backs. I'd be willing to bet a lot of fans would have the same guys, in whatever order, give or take a player or two, that I named in their all-time UT running back list.