How would you view a loss to PSU??

[cotton]

I look at this list and see...

Lsu: Two sec titles and a nc
Auburn: sec title and undefeated season
Georgia: two sec titles
Florida: two sec titles, playing for nc
Tennessee: ...

Travis, you are changing your argument, although I believe that this one is better. I posted those stats because of your assertion that Fulmer's number of losses per year since the NC was unacceptable and that Fulmer supporters ignore this fact. The numbers say that the loss number is very competitive with the best in the conference, even with last year's abismal 6 loss season thrown in.

The biggest difference I see in the loss totals between us and the other conference heavies is that LSU, Florida, Georgia, and Auburn each have a year (and only 1 year each) in which they have had 0 or 1 loss. UT hasn't had that year since '98, although they had their chances in '01.

 

[TravisHenryCBlockedMe]

Travis, you are changing your argument, although I believe that this one is better. I posted those stats because of your assertion that Fulmer's number of losses per year since the NC was unacceptable and that Fulmer supporters ignore this fact. The numbers say that the loss number is very competitive with the best in the conference, even with last year's abismal 6 loss season thrown in.

Well, I already said that the numbers showed us about 5th in our conference. As for the numbers showing UT being very competitive with the best in the conference, I really dont see it...we have the most losses, they have won sec championships while we havent, and if we REALLY wanted to see how competitive we are with the best in the conference we could look at our w-l against these teams. We both know that wont be pretty.

The biggest difference I see in the loss totals between us and the other conference heavies is that LSU, Florida, Georgia, and Auburn each have a year (and only 1 year each) in which they have had 0 or 1 loss. UT hasn't had that year since '98, although they had their chances in '01.

Yeah I saw that too. All the teams have had a 4 or 5 loss season here or there like us, but the difference was they had an outstanding season like that, PLUS a season or two of 2 losses.

All the numbers and analysis points to one conclusion: we arent in the upper echelon of the sec anymore. And I would say that this didnt happen just because of '05.

 

[hatvol96]

A more telling stat:

The coach who lost 8 in a season at LSU-Gone.
The coach who lost 6 in a season at Auburn-Gone.
The coach who consistently lost 4 games a year at UGA-Gone.
The coach who lost 5 games at UF-Gone.

Those programs choose not to accept meaningless bowl bids as a standard for the retention of coaches. That's why they are at the top of the SEC now.

 

[cotton]

Well, I already said that the numbers showed us about 5th in our conference. As for the numbers showing UT being very competitive with the best in the conference, I really dont see it...

I wasn't excusing the '05 season, I was only considering it. We are within 1/10th and 6/10ths of a loss on average of each of those teams over that time frame, even with the 6 loss disaster thrown in. If being on par or better than the best in our conference is the benchmark, then we are very, very close to it. The case against Fulmer just isn't very strong if you want to use that 3.875 number as a pillar.

I agree that 8 years is a long time to go without a conference championship, and I'll suggest that the elusive 1 or no loss season would result in one. Personally, I think the current staff has as good a chance to get us back to that season as the next Urban Meyer would, but everybody is entitled to his own opinion.

 

[volfanbill]

A more telling stat:

The coach who lost 8 in a season at LSU-Gone.
The coach who lost 6 in a season at Auburn-Gone.
The coach who consistently lost 4 games a year at UGA-Gone.
The coach who lost 5 games at UF-Gone.

Those programs choose not to accept meaningless bowl bids as a standard for the retention of coaches. That's why they are at the top of the SEC now.

that is the most telling stat of all. LSU, UGA, UF were not afraid of change. That is the worst answer from these pro-fulmer people on here. "you never know what you had til it's gone". I think with proper researching and calling the right people, UT can easily find someone who can come in here and get us past the constant 3 and four loss season. It's a gamble yes, but a gamble that can pay off with the proper homework. it is a gamble i'm ready to take by '08 if nothing has changed.

 

[VolinArizona]

Yup, if Fulmer wins in 2001 or 2004, I doubt many people would be complaining.

 

[Fine Vol]

A more telling stat:

The coach who lost 8 in a season at LSU-Gone.
The coach who lost 6 in a season at Auburn-Gone.
The coach who consistently lost 4 games a year at UGA-Gone.
The coach who lost 5 games at UF-Gone.

Those programs choose not to accept meaningless bowl bids as a standard for the retention of coaches. That's why they are at the top of the SEC now.

great point

 

[GAVol]

A more telling stat:

The coach who lost 8 in a season at LSU-Gone.
The coach who lost 6 in a season at Auburn-Gone.
The coach who consistently lost 4 games a year at UGA-Gone.
The coach who lost 5 games at UF-Gone.

Those programs choose not to accept meaningless bowl bids as a standard for the retention of coaches. That's why they are at the top of the SEC now.

That's a valid point on the surface, but it leaves the impression that all of these schools made deft moves to suddenly rectify their situations. The fact is, they didn't suddenly decide not to accept anything. All 4 of those programs had basically been wandering in the wilderness for 15 years or more and went through (off the top of my head) about 10 coaches. They were bound to get it right eventually.

 

[hatvol96]

Yup, if Fulmer wins in 2001 or 2004, I doubt many people would be complaining.

If Jim Donnan could have beaten UT or Florida.
If Terry Bowden wasn't sleeping with an administrator's daughter.
If Gerry DiNardo weren't an idiot.
If Ron Zook had been able to hold the lead against Miami in the '03 opener.
Hypotheticals mean nothing in sports. The final scoreboard tells you what you are.

 

[VolunteerHillbilly]

So UT should just wander in the wilderness without making any changes, thereby ensuring an even longer sojurn than that endured by out SEC brethren?

 

[hatvol96]

That's a valid point on the surface, but it leaves the impression that all of these schools made deft moves to suddenly rectify their situations. The fact is, they didn't suddenly decide not to accept anything. All 4 of those programs had basically been wandering in the wilderness for 15 years or more and went through (off the top of my head) about 10 coaches. They were bound to get it right eventually.

The only thing Florida was wandering toward under Spurrier were SEC titles. Pat Dye was wildly successful at Auburn for a long stretch. Terry Bowden had an undefeated season and won the West in '98. LSU and Georgia had struggled.

 

[GAVol]

So UT should just wander in the wilderness without making any changes, thereby ensuring an even longer sojurn than that endured by out SEC brethren?

That's the problem though . . . Last year notwithstanding, we haven't really been in the kind of shape those programs got in since the early 80s when we were fighting to win 8 games a year.

 

[orange+white=heaven]

That's the problem though . . . Last year notwithstanding, we haven't really been in the kind of shape those programs got in since the early 80s when we were fighting to win 8 games a year.

The problem GA, is that the side for a change simply does not agree with you on that point...

 

[volfanbill]

That's the problem though . . . Last year notwithstanding, we haven't really been in the kind of shape those programs got in since the early 80s when we were fighting to win 8 games a year.

i'll take occasional 3 and even 4 loss seasons if 0,1,2 loss seasons are mixed in with it. we are consistently not there. one 2 loss season in a period of 8 years is not acceptable. it's accepting a middle road between the struggling and the elite.

 

[GAVol]

The only thing Florida was wandering toward under Spurrier were SEC titles. Pat Dye was wildly successful at Auburn for a long stretch. Terry Bowden had an undefeated season and won the West in '98. LSU and Georgia had struggled.

I didn't notice that you had Florida on there, obviously they wouldn't included in that list. Dye was successful, but not what I would call "wildly" successful; especially in his later years. . . . and it's nice to see you giving props for winning the division.

The point is - and I know that you know this - none of the coaches at the schools you listed had 1/10th what Fulmer had when they went in the ditch.

 

[Vercingetorix]

Georgia under Jim Donnan:

1996 5-6
1997 10-2
1998 9-3
1999 8-4
2000 8-4

Looks pretty familiar to me...

 

[GAVol]

The problem GA, is that the side for a change simply does not agree with you on that point...

Obviously you are correct - and I'm not even putting this out as my position really. Just illustrating that the problem for the "anti-CPF" crowd is that things just have never really gotten bad enough when compared to some of those other schools that did make changes.

 

[Fine Vol]

Sinse 98 we should have made at least one real run for a NC and we have not. Why, you can debate till the cows come home but coaching has to be a big part of the equation.

 

[hatvol96]

That's a valid point on the surface, but it leaves the impression that all of these schools made deft moves to suddenly rectify their situations. The fact is, they didn't suddenly decide not to accept anything. All 4 of those programs had basically been wandering in the wilderness for 15 years or more and went through (off the top of my head) about 10 coaches. They were bound to get it right eventually.

Between '85 and '99-Which is the 15 year time frame leading up to most of the coaching changes I mentioned:

LSU won or shared two SEC titles.
Auburn won or shared three, not counting an undefeated season in which they were ineligible.
Florida won 5, not counting one they were essentially stripped of in '90 that they won on the field.
UGA was shut out.

So, given that UT has won two SEC titles in 14 under TCHFCATUTK, I guess we're in the wilderness. We're certainly not in any better shape than three of the programs described as being in the wilderness for 15 years.

 

[GAVol]

Georgia under Jim Donnan:

1996 5-6
1997 10-2
1998 9-3
1999 8-4
2000 8-4

Looks pretty familiar to me...

It looks similar until you consider that Donnan had a habit of never winning the division and losing almost every single rivalry game he coached in and being out of the mix for the SECCG by the middle of October every year. Even then, he got a pass until he started losing to Ga Tech.

 

[hatvol96]

I didn't notice that you had Florida on there, obviously they wouldn't included in that list. Dye was successful, but not what I would call "wildly" successful; especially in his later years. . . . and it's nice to see you giving props for winning the division.

The point is - and I know that you know this - none of the coaches at the schools you listed had 1/10th what Fulmer had when they went in the ditch.

I'm not giving credit for winning divisions. I'm simply pointing out that production that got Terry Bowden fired is as good or better than TCHFCATUTK's last five years.

 

[volfanbill]

I'm not giving credit for winning divisions. I'm simply pointing out that production that got Terry Bowden fired is as good or better than TCHFCATUTK's last five years.

i hate to disagree w/ my side of the argument. but some other terry bowden actions didn't help him keep his job either

 

[VolinArizona]

If Jim Donnan could have beaten UT or Florida.
If Terry Bowden wasn't sleeping with an administrator's daughter.
If Gerry DiNardo weren't an idiot.
If Ron Zook had been able to hold the lead against Miami in the '03 opener.
Hypotheticals mean nothing in sports. The final scoreboard tells you what you are.

Oh I know. I'm agreeing with you. Fulmer's winning regular season games has been decent, but he and we have nothing to show for it.

 

[TravisHenryCBlockedMe]

Just illustrating that the problem for the "anti-CPF" crowd is that things just have never really gotten bad enough when compared to some of those other schools that did make changes.

Its as "bad" as it was at uga, auburn, and surely uf.

 

[GAVol]

Between '85 and '99-Which is the 15 year time frame leading up to most of the coaching changes I mentioned:

LSU won or shared two SEC titles.
Auburn won or shared three, not counting an undefeated season in which they were ineligible.
Florida won 5, not counting one they were essentially stripped of in '90 that they won on the field.
UGA was shut out.

So, given that UT has won two SEC titles in 14 under TCHFCATUTK, I guess we're in the wilderness. We're certainly not in any better shape than three of the programs described as being in the wilderness for 15 years.

If you look back, I think you'll find that LSU, Auburn and Georgia all went 15 or more years between SEC titles. Whether it's 7 years, 10 years or 15 years . . . my point is that these school's didn't just wake up one day and decide not to take it anymore.