How many wins or Fahr CBJ

[BeecherVol]

if he hadn't walked into Post-Dooley he would be better in the SEC record as well just based on History.

He doesn't get a phone call if Dooley doesn't coach here after the Kiffin debacle.

 

[sjt18]

Oh for sure on the what ifs. Im no CBJ fan simply because i dont think he is a good football coach. But he had done enough to where he is not getting fired this year, no matter what. Maybe if we only win 4-5 games. But i think talent alone wins that. Personally, i think we win 7 maybe 8 this year. Based on players lost last year, CBJ gets another year.

I think 8 and 9 with some breaks. I personally think people will be surprised at how little the O drops off. It won't be the same... it will look more like Jones' O's from Cincy. Dobbs ran more than any QB Jones has ever had including Munchie Legaux... who was a pretty terrible passer. I'm counting on the OL to finally shape up. If it doesn't... this season will end Jones.

I am also counting on Shoop's D improving from its pre-injury level last year. He tends to get better play in year two. I personally think there were significant development issues with the last staff... and some conflict between Shoop and the guys who are no longer there.

We'll see.

 

[sjt18]

He doesn't get a phone call if Dooley doesn't coach here after the Kiffin debacle.

Correct. And there is no way you can say based on Jones' record before UT that he would have been better in the SEC. Dooley didn't cause the last two years. Jones did... in particular last year's 4-4 record.

 

[IknoxvolsI]

Correct. And there is no way you can say based on Jones' record before UT that he would have been better in the SEC. Dooley didn't cause the last two years. Jones did... in particular last year's 4-4 record.

That makes sense.

 

[sjt18]

Ok so for Butch's head coaching career he is 47-30 in conference play that is a .613 winning percetage and that is far greater than Mullens conference records as a head coach. See stats can don't always tell the whole story do they?

Mullens has only been an HC in the SEC West. Without doubt the toughest division in CFB for the entirety of his tenure.

Jones was 3-9 over 3 years vs Big East teams that finished with a winning record. The reason his conference record was as good as it was has a TON to do with how weak the competition was.

You can say whatever you want about it not being a SEC record but the fact is that a coach is hired to beat the teams on his schedule and that is what Butch has done during his coaching tenure. He has won at a high level at every stop he has been at and if he hadn't walked into Post-Dooley he would be better in the SEC record as well just based on History.

Except that he was beating bad teams.... and losing to almost all good teams. And FTR... those teams with a winning record weren't world beaters. Five of the 12 won 7 or 8 games.

That is subjective but it would be supported by trends.

No. It isn't. Six of the 12 teams mentioned above were in Jones' first year at Cincy. With a schedule even that good... he went 4-8. The "trend" is that he hasn't won the SEC East in the lowest competitive period since it was formed. The trend is he TIED for the Big East championship in two consecutive seasons when he played a grand total of 6 conference teams that finished with a winning record... losing to 4 of them.

I believe that no one in the coaching world really believes that he has shown he can win a big program and that is why he is getting passed by what some would view as lesser coaches.

Maybe. But Jones' resume to get and even now to keep the UT job... isn't as good as it appears on the surface.

You are so excited about the possibilty of anyone but Butch Jones coaching at Tennessee that your hate is blinding you!

Accepting unpleasant facts and the likely implications isn't being blinded by hate. Looking at what Jones has done in his first 10 years as a HC and saying he has proven he has what it takes... requires some pretty hefty blinders.

 

[BeecherVol]

Mullens has only been an HC in the SEC West. Without doubt the toughest division in CFB for the entirety of his tenure.

Jones was 3-9 over 3 years vs Big East teams that finished with a winning record. The reason his conference record was as good as it was has a TON to do with how weak the competition was.

Except that he was beating bad teams.... and losing to almost all good teams. And FTR... those teams with a winning record weren't world beaters. Five of the 12 won 7 or 8 games.

No. It isn't. Six of the 12 teams mentioned above were in Jones' first year at Cincy. With a schedule even that good... he went 4-8. The "trend" is that he hasn't won the SEC East in the lowest competitive period since it was formed. The trend is he TIED for the Big East championship in two consecutive seasons when he played a grand total of 6 conference teams that finished with a winning record... losing to 4 of them.

Maybe. But Jones' resume to get and even now to keep the UT job... isn't as good as it appears on the surface.

Accepting unpleasant facts and the likely implications isn't being blinded by hate. Looking at what Jones has done in his first 10 years as a HC and saying he has proven he has what it takes... requires some pretty hefty blinders.

We don't always agree.

On all of this, we do.

 

[IknoxvolsI]

Bottom line, we aren't any better off now than before we fired Fulmer. Jones isn't going to do any better than Fulmer if he was still here!

For all you Fulmerites, that's not a compliment,

 

[BeecherVol]

Bottom line, we aren't any better off now than before we fired Fulmer. Jones isn't going to do any better than Fulmer if he was still here!

For all you Fulmerites, that's not a compliment,

Wouldn't consider myself one but his tenure will continue to look better as the years pass.

 

[terrypedigo]

Butch has this gig down he knows as long as he wins 8 and throw 9 wins every 3 or 4 years he can keep pulling in millions from Tennessee its all about the the MONEY.

 

[IknoxvolsI]

Butch has this gig down he knows as long as he wins 8 and throw 9 wins every 3 or 4 years he can keep pulling in millions from Tennessee its all about the the MONEY.

Didn't work for Fulmer.

Didn't work for Richt at Georgia either.

 

[tvolsfan]

Anything but making the CFP is a firing offense, he's been here long enough

10-2 with a bowl loss and do not win the East is a firing offense.

10-2 with a bowl win but do not win the East is a firing offense

9-3 with a bowl win. Not fired but on the hot seat for many of the VN folks

8-4 with a bowl win Hot Seat from UT

Anything less than 8 wins.....He gone.

Why is there an option for fired at 10-2 but not at 8-4?

 

[tvolsfan]

8-4 should get him fired unless it includes a win in Tuscaloosa.

If he loses to Florida, Georgia, and Alabama, he shouldn't even coach another game after that.

 

[IknoxvolsI]

Are Florida fans really proud of their program?

 

[johnrlansford]

So since the numbers aren't in CBJ's favor, you want to change the comparison from Mullen's record at MSU vs. CBJ'S at UT, to CBJ's entire career? Lol...classic goal post move.

You are the one who keeps moving the goal post:

I measured them on their first 4 years as SEC head coaches, and the Numbers didn't support your narrative.

So you decided to compare 9 years of Mullen's career versus Butch's 4 years (Where he took over one of the worst situations ever),

So since you included Mullen's entire head coaching career I added Butch's entire coaching career everytime the Stats don't support your narrative, you move the Goal post.

You can compare Both coaches entire coaching career Conference record, Butch is better.

Or you can compare thier first 4 years as SEC coaches concfernce record, Butch Still wins.

But to say the comparison you want is only Butch's 4 years at Tennessee versus Mullen's 9 year career at MSU, that is moving the Goal post and that is the only way that Mullen's conference record is better than Butch's record.

 

[johnrlansford]

He doesn't get a phone call if Dooley doesn't coach here after the Kiffin debacle.

How do you figure, we hired Dooley!

We weren't attracting high level coaches after Fulmer got fired!

You speak of what you do not know!!!

 

[johnrlansford]

Mullens has only been an HC in the SEC West. Without doubt the toughest division in CFB for the entirety of his tenure.

Jones was 3-9 over 3 years vs Big East teams that finished with a winning record. The reason his conference record was as good as it was has a TON to do with how weak the competition was.

Except that he was beating bad teams.... and losing to almost all good teams. And FTR... those teams with a winning record weren't world beaters. Five of the 12 won 7 or 8 games.

No. It isn't. Six of the 12 teams mentioned above were in Jones' first year at Cincy. With a schedule even that good... he went 4-8. The "trend" is that he hasn't won the SEC East in the lowest competitive period since it was formed. The trend is he TIED for the Big East championship in two consecutive seasons when he played a grand total of 6 conference teams that finished with a winning record... losing to 4 of them.

Maybe. But Jones' resume to get and even now to keep the UT job... isn't as good as it appears on the surface.

Accepting unpleasant facts and the likely implications isn't being blinded by hate. Looking at what Jones has done in his first 10 years as a HC and saying he has proven he has what it takes... requires some pretty hefty blinders.

Head Coaches are hired to beat the teams on their schedules, while in the Big East Butch did that, You can't criticize him for beat the teams he was scheduled to play, Outside of one year with Dak Prescott who has Mullen beat that is worth talking about while in Starkville.

Alabama? Nope. LSU 1 time in 9 years, and no one else.....WOW that is an accoplishment I would want to say about my head coach...

Trading Butch for Mullen wouldn't produce any different results and we would be hiring a new coach in 3 years.

 

[sjt18]

Head Coaches are hired to beat the teams on their schedules, while in the Big East Butch did that, You can't criticize him for beat the teams he was scheduled to play,

Correct. And Jones wasn't being hired at UT to beat the teams on Cincy's schedule or a schedule of teams where most of them had losing records against a mid-major schedule in two out of 3 seasons. He was being hired to coach a major, historic program competing in the best CFB conference in the country.... and Bama on an annual basis.

But let's test drive your logic. HC's are hired because they've beaten the teams on their previous schedules. That appears to be your contention. SO.... UT should fire their staff and replace them with Adam Dorel and his staff. He took the job at Abilene Christian recently but from 2011-2016 he was 77-8 with three NC's in Division II with 4 consecutive conference championships.

He's the obvious choice to replace Jones and by pure application of your logic... we shouldn't wait and risk letting such a sure bet get away.

But... because coaches ARE hired to compete with and beat the teams they WILL be playing... He's at Abilene Christian. The question isn't whether Jones can beat the teams that Cincy played year by year... but if he has the talent to compete in the SEC.

Outside of one year with Dak Prescott who has Mullen beat that is worth talking about while in Starkville.

Alabama? Nope. LSU 1 time in 9 years, and no one else.....WOW that is an accoplishment I would want to say about my head coach...

Compare the resources of MSU and those of UT. Consider how Jones would look if UT played in the West instead of the East... reminder... he hasn't beaten a West team in 8 tries.

Trading Butch for Mullen wouldn't produce any different results and we would be hiring a new coach in 3 years.

I didn't propose doing that. If I were going to replace Jones right now with the person of my choosing based on what we've seen... My top guy would be Fuente. Winning at Memphis is herculean. He made an immediate impact at VT taking a mediocre team with mediocre talent to the ACC CG... and gave Clemson a run for it.

 

[sjt18]

8-4 should get him fired unless it includes a win in Tuscaloosa.

If he loses to Florida, Georgia, and Alabama, he shouldn't even coach another game after that.

There is a big chasm between "should" and will. I don't entirely disagree with you... but he'll be good for at least one more year with 8-4 and probably 7-5. I definitely think he should be gone at 7-5... but I doubt it.

 

[Jeepkuntry]

It's not so much the number of losses, it's who we lose to. If he drops South Carolina and Vandy again, he's gone. Same for Mizzou. I think he's fired after the LSU game.

 

[BeardedVol]

You are the one who keeps moving the goal post:

I measured them on their first 4 years as SEC head coaches, and the Numbers didn't support your narrative.

So you decided to compare 9 years of Mullen's career versus Butch's 4 years (Where he took over one of the worst situations ever),

So since you included Mullen's entire head coaching career I added Butch's entire coaching career everytime the Stats don't support your narrative, you move the Goal post.

You can compare Both coaches entire coaching career Conference record, Butch is better.

Or you can compare thier first 4 years as SEC coaches concfernce record, Butch Still wins.

But to say the comparison you want is only Butch's 4 years at Tennessee versus Mullen's 9 year career at MSU, that is moving the Goal post and that is the only way that Mullen's conference record is better than Butch's record.

So...now you want to equate coaching at CMU and Cincinnati to coaching at MSU?:crazy:

Wow, that's a metric-ton of spin needed to try and prove that CBJ has had more success at UT than Mullen at MSU.

Let's go back to the actual facts since you don't seem to understand how percentages work.

SEC
Mullen: 29-35: 29/64=.453
CBJ: 14-18: 14/32=.438

Overall at Current School
Mullen:61-42: 61/103=.592
CBJ:30-21: 30/51=.588

Dan Mullen has won at a higher percentage of both overall, and SEC games, than Butch Jones. It's not much higher, but it's still higher, and he does it in the tougher division with considerably less talent.

 

[johnrlansford]

Correct. And Jones wasn't being hired at UT to beat the teams on Cincy's schedule or a schedule of teams where most of them had losing records against a mid-major schedule in two out of 3 seasons. He was being hired to coach a major, historic program competing in the best CFB conference in the country.... and Bama on an annual basis.

But let's test drive your logic. HC's are hired because they've beaten the teams on their previous schedules. That appears to be your contention. SO.... UT should fire their staff and replace them with Adam Dorel and his staff. He took the job at Abilene Christian recently but from 2011-2016 he was 77-8 with three NC's in Division II with 4 consecutive conference championships.

He's the obvious choice to replace Jones and by pure application of your logic... we shouldn't wait and risk letting such a sure bet get away.

But... because coaches ARE hired to compete with and beat the teams they WILL be playing... He's at Abilene Christian. The question isn't whether Jones can beat the teams that Cincy played year by year... but if he has the talent to compete in the SEC.

Compare the resources of MSU and those of UT. Consider how Jones would look if UT played in the West instead of the East... reminder... he hasn't beaten a West team in 8 tries.



I didn't propose doing that. If I were going to replace Jones right now with the person of my choosing based on what we've seen... My top guy would be Fuente. Winning at Memphis is herculean. He made an immediate impact at VT taking a mediocre team with mediocre talent to the ACC CG... and gave Clemson a run for it.

I agree about Fuente, but Mullen wouldn't be on my short list or even my long list for that matter!

 

[johnrlansford]

So...now you want to equate coaching at CMU and Cincinnati to coaching at MSU?:crazy:

Wow, that's a metric-ton of spin needed to try and prove that CBJ has had more success at UT than Mullen at MSU.

Let's go back to the actual facts since you don't seem to understand how percentages work.

SEC
Mullen: 29-35: 29/64=.453
CBJ: 14-18: 14/32=.438

Overall at Current School
Mullen:61-42: 61/103=.592
CBJ:30-21: 30/51=.588

Dan Mullen has won at a higher percentage of both overall, and SEC games, than Butch Jones. It's not much higher, but it's still higher, and he does it in the tougher division with considerably less talent.

You are proving my point, you want to pull only time at current school, which isn't a fair comparison since Butch had a greater climb from the bottom than Mullen had.

A coach is judged on career wins or A side by side comaprison over the same period. You want the #s to say what you are trying to prove not what they really say!

Percentages include all the data not just the data that you want to include in your agenda...Percentages are being manipulated by your time frame requirements.

Butch Jones has won more in his career than Mullen and will prove to be a better coach in the long run and I am sure if he turns a corner this year, you'll jump right on the other side of the argument and forget wonder why you ever doubted him...lol

You can turn the #s all you want but as a head coach Butch has been better against the competition he has faced!....that is a fact not data can prove otherwise.

 

[BeardedVol]

You are proving my point, you want to pull only time at current school, which isn't a fair comparison since Butch had a greater climb from the bottom than Mullen had.

A coach is judged on career wins or A side by side comaprison over the same period. You want the #s to say what you are trying to prove not what they really say!

Percentages include all the data not just the data that you want to include in your agenda...Percentages are being manipulated by your time frame requirements.

Butch Jones has won more in his career than Mullen and will prove to be a better coach in the long run and I am sure if he turns a corner this year, you'll jump right on the other side of the argument and forget wonder why you ever doubted him...lol

You can turn the #s all you want but as a head coach Butch has been better against the competition he has faced!....that is a fact not data can prove otherwise.

Your zealous desire for CBJ to have a better winning percentage at UT than he actually does, seems to be affecting your mathematical skills.

You should go back and review using percentages. The amount of time either of them have spent at their schools only increases the available data set range, it doesn't affect the percentage in which either of them have won at their respective schools; winning more games than losing is the only thing that's going to affect the percentage.

 

[sjt18]

I agree about Fuente, but Mullen wouldn't be on my short list or even my long list for that matter!

I feel sorry for Mullen except on payday. I think he's a pretty good coach. But he coaches at the most disadvantaged program in the strongest division in CFB. They're the 2nd school in Mississippi that generally has to scrap with Southern Miss and other mid-majors for many of their recruits. UT even under Dooley got some blue chip players then rounded out classes with 3* players who were hoped to be flying under the radar or good project investments. That's pretty much all MSU gets... ever. In the 4 years prior to Mullen, Rivals ranked their classes 10th or 11th every year. Mullen has pretty much been range bound since taking over between a Rivals avg of around 2.9 and 3.1 stars.

It would be easy just to say he's a bad recruiter but you have to consider the competition he faces and what he has to sell.... cowbells and one of the smallest stadiums in the SEC. Even Prescott was a 3* with a relatively weak offer list.

If you are the MSU coach, you either find diamonds in the rough or you're polishing coal.

 

[molsen81]

It doesn't matter. Butchy is probably here for life. Win or lose, at least we'll have some entertainment and something to talk about. Go VOLS!