How Long Does it Take to Rebuild?

[jmkvols]

Depends on circumstances and scheduling

UTs circumstances are entirely different from any mentioned above.

Agreed, no mention of any coaches following Dooley.


























ive me a break,

 

[oregonvol]

You might want to check the stats on Franklin's 2nd year. Franklin started his second season off at 2-4 with losses to Northwestern, South Carolina, Georgia, and Florida. 3 out of 4 of those teams were ranked. At this point in the respective coaches' times, Jones is 7-10 and 1-8 vs the top 25. Franklin was 8-11 and 0-6 vs the top 25.

Franklin finished off his second season with 7 consecutive wins against unranked opponents including UMass, Kentucky, Wake Forest, Ole Miss (which was bad at the time), us (also bad at the time), and Auburn. Overall, that 9-4 Vandy team only played 3 ranked teams and went 0-3 against them.

If we're going to judge Butch by the exact same standard that we're judging Franklin on, then Butch and Franklin look pretty similar thus far. They both took over middling programs that were good enough to beat inferior OOC opponents, but not that competitive in SEC play. Their records are remarkably similar up to this point and both have struggled against Top 25 foes.

You're honestly arguing that this team looks as well coached as Franklin's Vanderbilt team in his second year there? Okay. Ranked or not, Franklin was playing and beating teams with significant talent advantages. How many times has Butch done that? You think he will do it at all this year?

We just lost at home to an unranked team with a coach about to be fired. Those are the kind of games Franklin would have won in his second year.

 

[oregonvol]

Looking at the OP again, only one of those is really applicable to the state of our program.

Cutcliffe, Snyder, Harbough, Alvarez all took over programs with 1 or 2 wins the year before. Not programs hovering around .500 like Butch did. The only one that compares to that is what D'antonio took over at Michigan State. And, once again, we see a guy who actually improved on the win/loss record of his predecessor and never had a losing season, two things Butch cannot claim.

 

[DERELICK_MY_VOLS]

So 5-7 or 6-6 this year and you'll be demanding a new coach?

That guy will fade. Just like all the folks that wanted Jancek fired just for what happened at Georgia....but look at our defense now. It is comical the amount of impatience.

 

[DERELICK_MY_VOLS]

Hmmm…let's see who has done it in the SEC this century.

James Franklin, Vanderbilt
Inherited 2-10 team. Historic losers playing in the toughest conference.

Year 1: 6-7
Year 2: 9-4
Year 3: 9-4

Hugh Freeze, Ole Miss
Inherited 2-10 team playing in the toughest division of the toughest conference.

Year 1: 7-6
Year 2: 8-5
Year 3: 5-0 (so far)

Nick Saban, LSU
Inherited 3-8 team

Year 1: 8-4
Year 2: 10-3
Year 3: 8-5
Year 4: 13-1

Gene Chizik, Auburn
Inherited 5-7 team.

Year 1: 8-5
Year 2: 14-0
Year 3: 8-5

Gus Malzahn, Auburn
Inherited 3-9 team

Year 1: 12-2
Year 2: 5-0 (so far)

…this is what Butch is up against. Coaches who actually exceed expectations and make big leaps in win/loss records. But, even with the cherry-picked examples in the OP, you'll notice that most of those guys, even the ones who took over programs with poor facilities, little tradition, and subpar fan support, made actual noticeable improvements to their program's win/loss records right away. Most won several more games than the previous guy. Butch hasn't even done that.

What's amazing about these coaches is they all have a better record in their 2nd season.

Looking at the OP again, only one of those is really applicable to the state of our program.

Cutcliffe, Snyder, Harbough, Alvarez all took over programs with 1 or 2 wins the year before. Not programs hovering around .500 like Butch did. The only one that compares to that is what D'antonio took over at Michigan State. And, once again, we see a guy who actually improved on the win/loss record of his predecessor and never had a losing season, two things Butch cannot claim.

No....they didn't follow multiple years of Derek Dooley.

 

[oregonvol]

No....they didn't follow multiple years of Derek Dooley.

Yeah, that old cop-out is getting staler every year. Dooley was awful, the worst coach we ever had. But even he kept us at ~.500 during his 3 years here. Exactly the same as Butch.

Butch followed a guy who went 5-7 repeatedly, and left him about 13 4 stars to start in his first year. That's way better than what Snyder or Harbaugh or Alvarez inherited. (and really, if we're being honest, better than what Freeze or Franklin inherited as well)

Short version: yelling "Dooley" as a magic excuse for everything doesn't actually work in the real world.

 

[DiderotsGhost]

We just lost at home to an unranked team with a coach about to be fired. Those are the kind of games Franklin would have won in his second year.

Let's imagine for a second that James Franklin was the coach at UT, and he went 2-4 in his second season here. Do you honestly believe that you wouldn't be leveling the same criticisms as you are now?

Franklin was 2-4 to start off the 2nd season at Vandy (that was 2012). All four of those losses came to teams that finished in the top 25. He finished with a seven game winning streak to close the season out at 9-4. Here are the records of the teams he beat:

Presbyterian: 2-9 (I-AA)
Missouri: 5-7
Auburn: 3-9
UMass: 1-11
Kentucky: 2-10
Tennessee: 5-7
Wake Forest: 5-7
Ole Miss: 7-6
NC State: 7-6

His only two wins against bowl teams were against 7-6 Ole Miss and NC State (the same NC State team that Dooley beat). Assuming that Arkansas State and Utah State go to a bowl game this year, then Jones has beaten the exact same number of bowl teams thus far (three) as Franklin did in his first two seasons.

 

[1972 Grad]

Yeah, that old cop-out is getting staler every year. Dooley was awful, the worst coach we ever had. But even he kept us at ~.500 during his 3 years here. Exactly the same as Butch.

Butch followed a guy who went 5-7 repeatedly, and left him about 13 4 stars to start in his first year. That's way better than what Snyder or Harbaugh or Alvarez inherited. (and really, if we're being honest, better than what Freeze or Franklin inherited as well)

Short version: yelling "Dooley" as a magic excuse for everything doesn't actually work in the real world.

Bush's fault??

 

[photovol]

Apparently UT was so far down in talent it will probably take 3-5 years to rebuild this program to respectability. However, Vol fans may have to settle for a middle of the road football program for many years to come....time will tell.....it's already been so very long since UT was competitive in the SEC.

 

[daj2576]

If Stoops comes in here and beats him this year you might have a point. Let's wait and see.

The only data point that Kentucky has that would suggest improvement is a win over SCAR, not a loss to Florida.

Other than that, they have beaten the teams they out-talent (Ohio, UTM and Vanderbilt), and lost to the teams they don't (Florida).

Is SCAR really a good data point? Perhaps it is they who are performing well below expectations?

 

[DERELICK_MY_VOLS]

Yeah, that old cop-out is getting staler every year. Dooley was awful, the worst coach we ever had. But even he kept us at ~.500 during his 3 years here. Exactly the same as Butch.

Butch followed a guy who went 5-7 repeatedly, and left him about 13 4 stars to start in his first year. That's way better than what Snyder or Harbaugh or Alvarez inherited. (and really, if we're being honest, better than what Freeze or Franklin inherited as well)

Short version: yelling "Dooley" as a magic excuse for everything doesn't actually work in the real world.

What is in the meaning of mentioning Dooley? The quitter give up mentality and culture he installed here. The black cloud of failure that has loomed here endlessly.

Plus Butch was left with no offensive talent other than an O-line. Butch didn't get to use Tyler Bray, CP, Hunter, or Rivera...they all bolted and are all on NFL rosters with Rivera being the only graduate. That was all of our offensive production from the year before. So if Butch has those kids then he probably looks like a genius last season but he didn't....he started no experience WRs/TEs/and QB.

Then there is the defense...Sunseri's train wreck that had ZERO confidence in itself. Pretty much the cluster f&C# of the century...then Jancek is coming in and we are still doomed cuz of what happened at Georgia he needs to be fired now. And look at our defense...it is a couple of DT's (which will be here next year) away from being lights out.

So yeah...the Dooley word does still fit at this time. Because it is taking time to break all the bad habits and mindset the Dooley left overs had. It takes time to rebuild a defense that was the most disgusting in our school's history. It takes time to upgrade the stable of athletes....every schools situation ain't the same.

 

[metafour]

So yeah...the Dooley word does still fit at this time. Because it is taking time to break all the bad habits and mindset the Dooley left overs had. It takes time to rebuild a defense that was the most disgusting in our school's history. It takes time to upgrade the stable of athletes....every schools situation ain't the same.

Gene Chizik left an absolute cesspool at Auburn (zero fundamentals on offense OR defense, horribly undisciplined team, players out of control) and that didn't stop Malzahn from coming in and coming within a minute of beating a stacked FSU team for the title with a first-year JUCO QB who enrolled late for fall practice. Great coaches find a way to make big impacts almost immediately, always. If you really want a good comparison; both Butch Jones and Gus Malzahn inherited talented Offensive Lines that were grossly under-performing. The difference is that Malzahn turned a talented but under-performing OL into one of the most dominant units in the country while Butch Jones seemed to make no impact with a group that had NFL talent; the OL still sucked. If you really analyze Auburn last year, the defense was still average at best given the ****-show that Chizik (a former top DC ironically) left behind. That team was entirely dependent on an elite OL and elite scheming that allowed a roster that went 3-9 the year before to compete for a title just a year later...that is elite coaching: finding SOMETHING and getting maximum output out of it.

 

[PowerWookie]

TN could easily be a different team with 2-3 more experienced O-linemen.

Last week the Pats were dominated by KC and the talk around Boston was Brady and Bill are washed up and the dynasty is over...

Well their oline was playing terrible as they had something like 2 rookies and a journeymen starting

Pats get two O-Linemen back from IR and now only 1 rookie sarts, Immediately their line improves drastically protecting Brady and establishing a running game. Now they look like the same old playoff team and possible superbowl contenders...

again TN could easily be a much different team with 2-3 more experienced O-linemen.... but until we recruit depth at all positions is gonna be hard to win in the SEC with a central part of the team being undermanned.

And I'm not bashing the O-line's skill; it's simply the fact that they are young kids playing against more mature young men dlineman IMO

 

[metafour]

TN could easily be a different team with 2-3 more experienced O-linemen.

You guys had talented and experienced OL last year; coaching didn't do much with them.

 

[Vol knight]

You guys had talented and experienced OL last year; coaching didn't do much with them.

Where was the experienced and talented skill positions to go with it?

 

[beasley11]

We are forever rebuilding........

 

[oregonvol]

Let's imagine for a second that James Franklin was the coach at UT, and he went 2-4 in his second season here. Do you honestly believe that you wouldn't be leveling the same criticisms as you are now?

Franklin was 2-4 to start off the 2nd season at Vandy (that was 2012). All four of those losses came to teams that finished in the top 25. He finished with a seven game winning streak to close the season out at 9-4. Here are the records of the teams he beat:

Presbyterian: 2-9 (I-AA)
Missouri: 5-7
Auburn: 3-9
UMass: 1-11
Kentucky: 2-10
Tennessee: 5-7
Wake Forest: 5-7
Ole Miss: 7-6
NC State: 7-6

His only two wins against bowl teams were against 7-6 Ole Miss and NC State (the same NC State team that Dooley beat). Assuming that Arkansas State and Utah State go to a bowl game this year, then Jones has beaten the exact same number of bowl teams thus far (three) as Franklin did in his first two seasons.

How many 4 star recruits was Franklin working with? How many were there when he took over?

Vanderbilt went 2-10 the year before Franklin got there. They had exactly 1 winning season in the 25 years preceding that. Stop pretending he took over a program with the same talent and resources as UT. That's just an utterly ridiculous argument.

Butch took over a team that was 5-7. A team that had been hovering around 5-7 for the 3 previous years. And he duplicated that record. And it looks like he will do about the same this year.

Do you not realize the difference between that and every rebuild that you cited? Rebuilding means improving. Football is about wins and losses. If you aren't improving in wins and losses, then you aren't improving. Why is this such a difficult concept for you to grasp?

 

[VFLinbama]

It all depends on how far the program has fallen. Here is an example.

Johnny Majors arrives in Knoxville:


1977 4 - 7 Record

1978 5 - 5 - 1 Record

1979 7 - 5 Record

1980 5 - 6 Record

1981 8 - 4 Record

1982 6 - 5 - 1 Record

1983 - 1987 were all winning records

1988 5 - 6 Record


1989 - 1992 were all winning reccords


So, in 16 seasons, Majors had 4 losing seasons...... and one 500 record and 11 winning seasons.

It takes time!!!!!!!!!

and the worst year was 1988 when we started 0-6. it was ugly but we won the next 5 then 1989 went 11-1 baby. so it will happen and soon!

 

[Dewey]

How many 4 star recruits was Franklin working with? How many were there when he took over?

Vanderbilt went 2-10 the year before Franklin got there. They had exactly 1 winning season in the 25 years preceding that. Stop pretending he took over a program with the same talent and resources as UT. That's just an utterly ridiculous argument.

Butch took over a team that was 5-7. A team that had been hovering around 5-7 for the 3 previous years. And he duplicated that record. And it looks like he will do about the same this year.

Do you not realize the difference between that and every rebuild that you cited? Rebuilding means improving. Football is about wins and losses. If you aren't improving in wins and losses, then you aren't improving. Why is this such a difficult concept for you to grasp?

You are so dumb. Teams continue to grow and mesh before the results happen. We are playing 22 frosh. Entirely new OL and DL. You don't think they "improve" each and every day? Who cares about this year's wins and losses. Butch is starting from square one with this program. Who cares who was here in the past and what "star" they were coming out of highschool...it's a learning curve and you need to accept that. These guys are getting battle tested every single day. They are becoming hungry and a hungry football team makes for a dangerous football team. Gone are the days when Tennessee gets rolled 42-14 and nobody seems to care. We actually have a coach that has some fire/passion and his players reflect that same energy. I am excited for the future and this year's win and loss record is not going to detract from that.

 

[Exiled]

27 years.

 

[volberry]

Well we only give coaches 2 years to turn it around. Hard to do in the sec with 5 out of 6 losing years. Hard to tell how we're doing. We lose close to uga and florida again. Last year we beat usc but who knows what goes down this year. Lots of teams play close games. Vandy played everyone close for years without winning. The issue has to be deeper.

 

[JohnMcA60]

Great post. If Butch shows consistent improvement then we are heading in right direction. Need to quit questioning coaching when our OLine couldnt block high school freshmen. If we go 6-6 then I will be more than pleased but I'd like to see 7-5 in third year with a bigger jump in 2016 and 2017

 

[Dagreek1998]

Great post. If Butch shows consistent improvement then we are heading in right direction. Need to quit questioning coaching when our OLine couldnt block high school freshmen. If we go 6-6 then I will be more than pleased but I'd like to see 7-5 in third year with a bigger jump in 2016 and 2017

If you buy the groceries and the food ends up burnt each week, the problem might be the cook. New OL and OC coaches should be on the shopping list.

 

[UrbanCryer]

Apparently 5 years and counting. 2025 will be our year

How does this have a like?

Is your mom on volnation?

Tell me her screen name so i can put both of yall on the ignore list.

 

[Tokeup69]

2016 will be our year!!