How in the world..

#226
#226
jamesd1628 said:
You're wrong, I'm not implying that modern-day American blacks benefitted from slavery, I'm outright saying it: they benefited from slavery. A few posts ago, you yourself acknowledged that the number of slaves sold in North America was very small compared to the slave trade overall. That means that eliminating the slave trade to North America would have had virtually no effect on what has happened to Africa as a result of slave trade. I'm not making a big leap here, people. Again, you are just afraid to admit the truth because you are afraid it makes you a racist.
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I only quote you because I am impressed that you went three whole posts without saying this had anything to do with liberals, or implying there is some vast liberal conspiracy
 
#227
#227
emainvol said:
I already tried that, it's no use.
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It's no use because the logic is flawed.

Do you people honestly not understand that something can be evil in and of itself, and yet something good can come from it? Just because the original cause is bad doesn’t mean that there can’t be some good effect somewhere along the way. Some people call it finding the silver lining. That is not a justification for the thing itself, merely an observation that, hey, at least something good came out of it. No, in the case of slavery, you are just too afraid to admit it because of political correctness. And you can’t even see it.
 
#228
#228
jamesd1628 said:
Slavery requires no rationalization. It is a historical fact, it happened, and none of us alive today had anything to do with it. What do I need to rationalize or make myself feel better about? It seems to me that you are the one afraid to admit that it happened. You will admit that the descendants of slaves are better off here than in African, but you won't acknowledge that they are here because of slavery. You're in denial.
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anyone here today is here because they choose to be, not because their forefathers were forced here. I think you're simply using your stand to shrug off slavery is simply old news and I think that stand falls squarely into ostrich territory.

I'm not denying anything. I'm saying that people in America are better off than anyone else, regardless of how they came to be Americans.
 
#229
#229
jamesd1628 said:
It's no use because the logic is flawed.

Do you people honestly not understand that something can be evil in and of itself, and yet something good can come from it? Just because the original cause is bad doesn’t mean that there can’t be some good effect somewhere along the way. Some people call it finding the silver lining. That is not a justification for the thing itself, merely an observation that, hey, at least something good came out of it. No, in the case of slavery, you are just too afraid to admit it because of political correctness. And you can’t even see it.
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who the heck you referring to as "you people", Mr. Perot?
 
#230
#230
jamesd1628 said:
It's no use because the logic is flawed.

Do you people honestly not understand that something can be evil in and of itself, and yet something good can come from it? Just because the original cause is bad doesn’t mean that there can’t be some good effect somewhere along the way. Some people call it finding the silver lining. That is not a justification for the thing itself, merely an observation that, hey, at least something good came out of it. No, in the case of slavery, you are just too afraid to admit it because of political correctness. And you can’t even see it.
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No sir, you are just not clear on the rules of debating hypotheticals. While you may have a strong argument because of what has, and does happen, it still cannot be considered 100% correct when posed against a hypothetical.
 
#231
#231
emainvol said:
No sir, you are just not clear on the rules of debating hypotheticals. While you may have a strong argument because of what has, and does happen, it still cannot be considered 100% correct when posed against a hypothetical.
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Very few things, if anything, can be considered 100% correct. All we can do is weigh the evidence we have. It seems pretty clear to me that the slave trade in North America had very little effect on where Africa is today. Are you going to try to argue that, if the small percentage of slaves that came to North America had stayed in Africa, that continent would be different today? Yes, it's possible, but it is hightly unlikely.
 
#232
#232
jamesd1628 said:
Very few things, if anything, can be considered 100% correct. All we can do is weigh the evidence we have. It seems pretty clear to me that the slave trade in North America had very little effect on where Africa is today. Are you going to try to argue that, if the small percentage of slaves that came to North America had stayed in Africa, that country would be different today? Yes, it's possible, but it is hightly unlikely.
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No one ever said that Sub-Saharan Africa absolutely would be in better shape, we only argued that there is no way of knowing.

Thank you for finally conceding that point.
 
#234
#234
emainvol said:
No one ever said that Sub-Saharan Africa absolutely would be in better shape, we only argued that there is no way of knowing.

Thank you for finally conceding that point.
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The problem is that you're basing your argument on something that is extremely unlikely. If your only point is "well anything is possible" then you really don't have much to go on.
 
#235
#235
jamesd1628 said:
The problem is that you're basing your argument on something that is extremely unlikely. If your only point is "well anything is possible" then you really don't have much to go on.
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Well, the argument being presented to you was that you couldn't present what you were saying as fact, but very simply put, it isn't
 
#236
#236
emainvol said:
Well, the argument being presented to you was that you couldn't present what you were saying as fact, but very simply put, it isn't
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When your standard for argument is "anything is possible" then nothing is fact. What then is the point of even having a discussion?
 
#237
#237
jamesd1628 said:
When your standard for argument is "anything is possible" then nothing is fact. What then is the point of even having a discussion?
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I do not believe anyone ever used "anything is possible" as a standard. We simply challenged your assertion. I also do not think anyone ever championed their argument as highly probable, some just did not like your presenting your opinion as absolute fact.
 
#238
#238
This is why saying things like "they are better off" are opinions, you simply don't know for certain that they are, you can only present evidence to support your argument.

All that said, a very simple way to start an argument, especially in here, is to refer to your opinion as absolute fact.
 
#239
#239
emainvol said:
I do not believe anyone ever used "anything is possible" as a standard. We simply challenged your assertion. I also do not think anyone ever championed their argument as highly probable, some just did not like your presenting your opinion as absolute fact.
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Okay then, let me ask you this. If you assume that my Africa scenario is true (i.e., that Africa would be roughly the same today with or without the North American portion of the slave trade), then do you agree that the descendants of the North American slaves are better off now, in America, than they would be, in Africa, if their ancestors had never been slaves?
 
#240
#240
jamesd1628 said:
The problem is that you're basing your argument on something that is extremely unlikely. If your only point is "well anything is possible" then you really don't have much to go on.
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It was pretty unlikely that a bunch of misfits and rabble from Europe would lay the foundation for the world's premiere superpower a little under 300 years.

So, yes, anything is possible.
 
#241
#241
jamesd1628 said:
Okay then, let me ask you this. If you assume that my Africa scenario is true (i.e., that Africa would be roughly the same today with or without the North American portion of the slave trade), then do you agree that the descendants of the North American slaves are better off now, in America, than they would be, in Africa, if their ancestors had never been slaves?
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a majority of them, yes.
 
#242
#242
therealUT said:
It was pretty unlikely that a bunch of misfits and rabble from Europe would lay the foundation for the world's premiere superpower a little under 300 years.

So, yes, anything is possible.
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Well since your argument seems to hinge on the "anything is possible" scenario, I'll ask you the same question I asked Emain: If you assume that my Africa scenario is true (i.e., that Africa would be roughly the same today with or without the North American portion of the slave trade), then do you agree that the descendants of the North American slaves are better off now, in America, than they would be, in Africa, if their ancestors had never been slaves?
 
#243
#243
On a lighter note, this thread sure has covered a broad spectrum of topics.
 
#244
#244
KB5252 said:
On a lighter note, this thread sure has covered a broad spectrum of topics.
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give it a couple of hours, we'll get on another tangent.

I can't wait until we get to start the Official 2008 Presidential Election Game Thread
 
#246
#246
jamesd1628 said:
Well since your argument seems to hinge on the "anything is possible" scenario, I'll ask you the same question I asked Emain: If you assume that my Africa scenario is true (i.e., that Africa would be roughly the same today with or without the North American portion of the slave trade), then do you agree that the descendants of the North American slaves are better off now, in America, than they would be, in Africa, if their ancestors had never been slaves?
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On that assumption, yes.
 
#249
#249
therealUT said:
Yes, on that highly unintelligent assumption, you are correct...
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So now you are left with nothing but insulting the assumption. Just as a reminder, my assumption was that Africa would be roughly the same today with or without the North American portion of the slave trade. You personally have already acknowledged that the North American portion of the slave trade was quite small. And it was. Thus my assumption seems fairly sound. At least more likely than not to be true. Certainly more likely than the alternative, which would be that the small percentage of slaves traded to North America would have completely turned the tide in Africa had they stayed there. Yeah.

You've lost the argument, just try not to take it too hard.
 
#250
#250
emainvol said:
Volnissniss said:
See this is what I am talking about. Never once did I question your experiences, only pulled from mine. Never once did I even imply that you were a racist, only challenged your statements. I am not attacking you, and if you think I am, you should really chill out.
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You have serious short term memory problems. You and I started going at it when you said that my opinion was stupid and I should have never voiced it. Then you said I should reconsider being on this thread if I was going to be defensive about my opinions. Both of which were a bit personal, don't you think?

I am simply reacting to what you are putting out. You started with the low jabs and I have been defending my points with passion that is all.

You have made a few mistakes and misspoke a few times yourself, nobody is perfect and this is supposed to be a place where vol fans can discuss politics. We can disagree with each other and it be ok. However, when you out right call someone's opinion stupid or question whether or not they have a right to even hang out in a certain forum for being passionate, well you made it personal.
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