How do you explain that final no-call? Asking seriously.

[Deeretractor]

There were no calls from the very start of the game. It isn’t logical to ignore a dozen or more obvious fouls (and walks) and then suddenly start enforcing those rules as the clock is about to expire

I love this take they let the guys play all game and that’s what fans want. By allowing that style of play you can’t decide the game on a throw up shot by blowing the whistle. Also we forget that the refs went to monitor the drive before were the ball went off Vescovi, while at that monitor they probably saw he got pushed out of bounds by Auburn but that can’t be overturned, I would say that had something to do with the no call.

 

[GUNTERSVOL]

Completely disagree, but ok. Nkamhoua was neither vertical at the point of first contact, nor was he set before Green left his feet. He clearly was still moving into Green's space to land. I'm fine with the idea that Green's reputation as a flopper contributed to the no-call, but it was a foul on Nkamhoua, and I have no doubt that the vast majority would want that called if the teams were reversed and it was Zeigler getting contacted by Broome. Agree to disagree.

Here is where Green's cylinder was established and where he left his feet and ORN established his feet. ORN did pull his arms back over his body after Green left his feet, but BEFORE any contact. and raised up on his toes, but did not move his feet. The shooter gets protection to go up and back down but not forward, especially taking his feet from behind his body to being two feet in front. He was making no attempt to return into his protected zone.

Art. 1. Verticality applies to a legal position and also to both the offensive and defensive players. The basic components of the principle of verticality are

The diameter of the cylinder shall not extend beyond the hands/arms on the front (the arms bent at the elbow), the buttocks on the back and the legs on the sides.

h. The offensive player, whether on the playing court or airborne, shall not “clear out” or cause contact that is not incidental.

So who entered whose zone? ORN gets the forward space as well.

 

[Fullfillmer]

Here is where Green's cylinder was established and where he left his feet and ORN established his feet. ORN did pull his arms back over his body after Green left his feet, but BEFORE any contact. and raised up on his toes, but did not move his feet. The shooter gets protection to go up and back down but not forward, especially taking his feet from behind his body to being two feet in front. He was making no attempt to return into his protected zone.

The diameter of the cylinder shall not extend beyond the hands/arms on the front (the arms bent at the elbow), the buttocks on the back and the legs on the sides.

View attachment 534861

When I clicked on it - it enlarged - ORN has already established his feet - Pretty obvious moving screen/hold on Z.

 

[VolArmy74]

Here is where Green's cylinder was established and where he left his feet and ORN established his feet. ORN did pull his arms back over his body after Green left his feet, but BEFORE any contact. and raised up on his toes, but did not move his feet. The shooter gets protection to go up and back down but not forward, especially taking his feet from behind his body to being two feet in front. He was making no attempt to return into his protected zone.

Art. 1. Verticality applies to a legal position and also to both the offensive and defensive players. The basic components of the principle of verticality are

The diameter of the cylinder shall not extend beyond the hands/arms on the front (the arms bent at the elbow), the buttocks on the back and the legs on the sides.

h. The offensive player, whether on the playing court or airborne, shall not “clear out” or cause contact that is not incidental.

So who entered whose zone? ORN gets the forward space as well.

View attachment 534861

ORN didn't establish his feet there. He moves 2-3 more steps as Green lifts off and while Green is in the air.

 

[cgrish]

I just saw video of the Auburn game, and I cannot logically explain how that referee could not call Nkamhoua for a foul on Auburn's final shot!

Sure, we can take solace in the idea that the bad calls even out over the course of a season, but HOW--in that instance--does a ref swallow his whistle? Is human judgement that fallible? Are games rigged? How do you explain that call?

To my knowledge of the game, despite Olivier's raised hands and stable upper body, jump-stopping into his final position he was obviously late. He moved his body into the shooter's landing space( who did not elevate for his shot in an exaggeratedly forward disposition). Textbook call--right?

And even when refs choose to "let 'em play" in the final seconds, no matter how much extra contact they allow, they always reward basketball IQ and punish a stupid or clumsy move.

I come to VolNation to learn as much as to vent, so please enlighten me: was it me, or the referee, that missed something on that final play?

*note: I later saw Bruce Pearl's postgame interview, and he said he received "no explanation" about that final call.

I agree I think he was fouled; however the play I think right before that, Vescovi was fouled, pushed out of bounds and no call and Auburn got the ball back, or that 3 point shot would never have been attempted. Maybe it was a make up no call.

 

[Volfan1000]

The game yesterday was more like a football game than a basketball game because of the physicality by both teams and each team had scouted the other one very well.

 

[vavolfan6]

Ok, it was a foul. But it's ridiculous to be mad at and blame the refs for losing when you shot so poorly. Auburn only scored 29 points on their own if you take away their free throws.

I get we didn't play much better either. But had the roles been reversed I'd still think it foolish to whine about the refs after such a performance. The players only have themselves to blame. Did the refs mess up the last possession? Sure. But how many did Auburn mess up on their own? To blame the ref for not being perfect after such a game is silly.

 

[SonOfGodVolforlife]

Thank y'all for those helpful insights.

I only saw a highlights video (which was very short, given the score!) and so I was oblivious to what had been occurring (flop warnings, fouls not being called) over the course of the game. Guess Auburn cried wolf so long, the wolf got ignored when/if he finally showed up.

Like I posted, I come here to learn. Much appreciated.

You didn’t even watch the game but you started a thread?? Strange sir , very strange.

 

[orangemadam]

ON definitely fouled. The refs let the game get physical and it was to our benefit.

We play physical, aggressive ball and it helped the way the refs let them play. I believe that is the way the tourneys are called most times.

 

[GUNTERSVOL]

Watch the replay, not the photos. Olivier jumped towards him and initiated contact. It was a clear foul on him. No point in denying that we got away with one there. That said, Green was shooting horribly and I doubt he makes all three free throws even if they had called it.

t

What? Those are not touched up photos, those are screenshots of THE REPLAY. See if ORN's toes ever move from the screenshot before contact. See if the shooter takes the option to lean forward out of his cylinder established when both feet leave the floor. ORN straightens up and gets within the rule defined forward limits of HIS cylinder before the shooter goes for the double leg kick maneuver. Draw the cylinders of both based on their feet in the upright body position. The cylinder goes STRAIGHT UP as defined by the whole 4.39.1 rule, it does not run at angles based on body lean of offensive or defensive player. The effort to throw his legs into ORN's cylinder is why he did not get the call as defined in the other part of the rule whIch may have been added since our famous leg kick call in the NCAA's.

h. The offensive player, whether on the playing court or airborne, shall not “clear out” or cause contact that is not incidental.

Like kicking feet forward beyond the cylinder.

OH.... BTW

e. From such position, the defender may rise or jump vertically and occupy the space within his vertical plane.

So foot movement or knee flex WITHIN his cylinder does not end ORN's rule protection.

You have a shot with contact beyond ORN's legally defined cylinder? Not a chance the screenshot does not establish their legal cylinders did not overlap as the shooter left the floor. He had room to return to the ground within his cylinder.

His feet came from the back of his cylinder, to beyond the front of his cylinder and into ORN's. SOOOOOO.......

AND.... most importantly.......

j. The player with the ball shall be given no more protection or consideration than the defender in the judging of which player, if either, has violated the principle of verticality.

Who violated whose legally established cylinder? Need to see a shot where ANY foul occured in the shooters ESTABLISHED cylinder.

 

[imbubbaspitcup]

Yeah! I thought it was a foul, O didn't let him land! O also didn't jump or lean into the shooter! He just stood there with his arms straight up! I wish all of your bigs would stand & just extend their arms up more often rather than jump while guard the shooters! We would have a lot less fouls!

 

[VOLINVONORE]

Who really cares. There were fouls all over the floor that were not call against both teams. Let's just say this one was a call that was not make. We have had theses call s go against us all the time. Maybe it was just our time to not have it called against us. This is not a big deal. Let it go and enjoy the next game.

 

[savannahfan]

There were no calls from the very start of the game. It isn’t logical to ignore a dozen or more obvious fouls (and walks) and then suddenly start enforcing those rules as the clock is about to expire

I don't think refs ever call this anymore. They do call a "shuffle start move" now and then, but hardly ever a walk and never a call for dancing with both feet trying to get the ball from the middle of the court to the goal or a pass back outside. It is really comical watching big guys dancing around under the basket. ( I say comical even though it is ridiculous to watch and a disgrace to one of the principle rules of the game)

 

[cncchris33]

Here is where Green's cylinder was established and where he left his feet and ORN established his feet. ORN did pull his arms back over his body after Green left his feet, but BEFORE any contact. and raised up on his toes, but did not move his feet. The shooter gets protection to go up and back down but not forward, especially taking his feet from behind his body to being two feet in front. He was making no attempt to return into his protected zone.

Art. 1. Verticality applies to a legal position and also to both the offensive and defensive players. The basic components of the principle of verticality are

The diameter of the cylinder shall not extend beyond the hands/arms on the front (the arms bent at the elbow), the buttocks on the back and the legs on the sides.

h. The offensive player, whether on the playing court or airborne, shall not “clear out” or cause contact that is not incidental.

So who entered whose zone? ORN gets the forward space as well.

View attachment 534861

We are not likely to find common ground on this issue even if I concede the cylinder portion of the argument. Nkamhoua wasn’t vertical at the point of first contact and nothing about this play will be proven in a still photograph, and especially any angle from behind the play. Watch the video, watch it from the side angle (preferably zoomed in), and I see no evidence for him having established a principle of verticality before contact. You’re welcome to your opinion, but my mind remains unchanged.

Furthermore, it doesn’t really matter. It was a fun discussion two days ago, but now it’s just argument for argument’s sake. We won, game’s over. On to the next.

 

[cncchris33]

t

What? Those are not touched up photos, those are screenshots of THE REPLAY. See if ORN's toes ever move from the screenshot before contact. See if the shooter takes the option to lean forward out of his cylinder established when both feet leave the floor. ORN straightens up and gets within the rule defined forward limits of HIS cylinder before the shooter goes for the double leg kick maneuver. Draw the cylinders of both based on their feet in the upright body position. The cylinder goes STRAIGHT UP as defined by the whole 4.39.1 rule, it does not run at angles based on body lean of offensive or defensive player. The effort to throw his legs into ORN's cylinder is why he did not get the call as defined in the other part of the rule whIch may have been added since our famous leg kick call in the NCAA's.

h. The offensive player, whether on the playing court or airborne, shall not “clear out” or cause contact that is not incidental.

Like kicking feet forward beyond the cylinder.

OH.... BTW

e. From such position, the defender may rise or jump vertically and occupy the space within his vertical plane.

So foot movement or knee flex WITHIN his cylinder does not end ORN's rule protection.

You have a shot with contact beyond ORN's legally defined cylinder? Not a chance the screenshot does not establish their legal cylinders did not overlap as the shooter left the floor. He had room to return to the ground within his cylinder.

His feet came from the back of his cylinder, to beyond the front of his cylinder and into ORN's. SOOOOOO.......

AND.... most importantly.......

j. The player with the ball shall be given no more protection or consideration than the defender in the judging of which player, if either, has violated the principle of verticality.

Who violated whose legally established cylinder? Need to see a shot where ANY foul occured in the shooters ESTABLISHED cylinder.

Top red arrow shows contact just after Green has released the ball and Nkamhoua is not even close to vertical.

Bottom red arrow shows that Nkamhoua doesn’t even have both feet on the ground at first contact. He has not established his position, his feet, nor his cylinder.

 

[tennesseejoe]

Didn’t the Vols have a call like that in the tournament a few years ago? Where an opposing player was shooting a 3 and kicked his leg out some way and the UT player was called for a foul, and it ended up being the difference in the game?

Purdue I beleive

 

[TucsonVol]

I just saw video of the Auburn game, and I cannot logically explain how that referee could not call Nkamhoua for a foul on Auburn's final shot!

Sure, we can take solace in the idea that the bad calls even out over the course of a season, but HOW--in that instance--does a ref swallow his whistle? Is human judgement that fallible? Are games rigged? How do you explain that call?

To my knowledge of the game, despite Olivier's raised hands and stable upper body, jump-stopping into his final position he was obviously late. He moved his body into the shooter's landing space( who did not elevate for his shot in an exaggeratedly forward disposition). Textbook call--right?

And even when refs choose to "let 'em play" in the final seconds, no matter how much extra contact they allow, they always reward basketball IQ and punish a stupid or clumsy move.

I come to VolNation to learn as much as to vent, so please enlighten me: was it me, or the referee, that missed something on that final play?

*note: I later saw Bruce Pearl's postgame interview, and he said he received "no explanation" about that final call.

Get over it!

 

[BigBadVol]

Why are so many so called TN fans upset that TN got a call? I’ve seen TN jobbed so many times in the past that it’s ridiculous. The shooter absolutely initiated the contact, he threw his legs out toward the defender. Also it was a desperation heave but I guess some believe they should be rewarded for that.

 

[cncchris33]

Why are so many so called TN fans upset that TN got a call? I’ve seen TN jobbed so many times in the past that it’s ridiculous. The shooter absolutely initiated the contact, he threw his legs out toward the defender. Also it was a desperation heave but I guess some believe they should be rewarded for that.

Who is upset about it? I’ve not seen one person say they’re upset that a call went our way, let alone “so many so called TN fans”.

 

[DowntownVol]

And they were hanging on Santi the entire game. No calls.

I've said this in another thread, but: I don't know if SEC refs have it in for SV or what, but he basically gets the crap knocked out of him every game and gets few if any calls, more egregiously so than any TN player I can remember.

 

[GUNTERSVOL]

View attachment 534878

Top red arrow shows contact just after Green has released the ball and Nkamhoua is not even close to vertical.

Bottom red arrow shows that Nkamhoua doesn’t even have both feet on the ground at first contact. He has not established his position, his feet, nor his cylinder.

Interesting shot, BUT.... draw a line up from his ankles STRAIGHT UP and see if his arms are still within this bent arm front border of his established cylinder. Secondly, I will provide his previously established position with both feet as the shooter is rising, and the question will be is his raised foot still within or behind this established cylinder. He is stuck with his cylinder just like the shooter who SEEMS to have lept forward out of his last established cylinder. SO bottom line is ORN still occupying space in his established plane with the lifted leg?

e. From such position, the defender may rise or jump vertically and occupy the space within his vertical plane.

Edited to add... it is obvious that ORN is trying to match the shooters elevation as he rises. Compare the sleeve on his elbow in both shots.

 

[cncchris33]

Interesting shot, BUT.... draw a line up from his ankles STRAIGHT UP and see if his arms are still within this bent arm front border of his established cylinder. Secondly, I will provide his previously established position with both feet as the shooter is rising, and the question will be is his raised foot still within or behind this established cylinder. He is stuck with his cylinder just like the shooter who SEEMS to have lept forward out of his last established cylinder. SO bottom line is ORN still occupying space in his established plane with the lifted leg?

e. From such position, the defender may rise or jump vertically and occupy the space within his vertical plane.

View attachment 534903

The point still is that Nkamhoua has not established position when contact is made. You can’t establish position with one foot off the ground still moving towards a shooter.

What I think is lost is the fact that this shot takes place 27’ from the basket. If this same action took place 2’ from the basket, a lot of people from your position probably view it much differently. Green is viewed much differently jumping “outside his cylinder” if he’s driving for a layup or floater in the lane.

 

[rdk4121]

View attachment 534905

The point still is that Nkamhoua has not established position when contact is made. You can’t establish position with one foot off the ground still moving towards a shooter.

What I think is lost is the fact that this shot takes place 27’ from the basket. If this same action took place 2’ from the basket, a lot of people from your position probably view it much differently. Green is viewed much differently jumping “outside his cylinder” if he’s driving for a layup or floater in the lane.

Certainly doesn't look like Broome is setting a legal screen right there either, also looked pretty clear that he shoved Santi out of bounds to force a turnover.

College officials miss call. Yes, he fouled him, but I believe he didn't get the benefit of the whistle because he kept flopping and flailing when he went up to shoot. I think it's as simple as that, plus it's harder to make those calls on the last shot.

 

[GUNTERSVOL]

View attachment 534905

The point still is that Nkamhoua has not established position when contact is made. You can’t establish position with one foot off the ground still moving towards a shooter.

What I think is lost is the fact that this shot takes place 27’ from the basket. If this same action took place 2’ from the basket, a lot of people from your position probably view it much differently. Green is viewed much differently jumping “outside his cylinder” if he’s driving for a layup or floater in the lane.

He had already established a legal position in MY shot and is elevating to match the shooter and CAN rise or jump to do so. He is insuring he does not move forward into the shooters last established cylinder with his right leg going back.

How long do you think ORN's arm from elbow to hand IS? How far do you think his hand is from your line you accommodated me with?

I think the shooter has entered his cylinder and see no reason for it to have dissolved until his feet re-establish elsewhere. Can you show any forward movement by ORN OUT of his last established cylinder?

 

[cncchris33]

He had already established a legal position in MY shot and is elevating to match the shooter and CAN rise or jump to do so. He is insuring he does not move forward into the shooters last established cylinder with his right leg going back.

How long do you think ORN's arm from elbow to hand IS? How far do you think his hand is from your line you accommodated me with?

I think the shooter has entered his cylinder and see no reason for it to have dissolved until his feet re-establish elsewhere. Can you show any forward movement by ORN OUT of his last established cylinder?

It doesn’t feel like anything I show you is going to change your mind, so no need to further attempt it. I’ve already made a compelling argument with more definitive photographic evidence than anything I’ve seen from the angle you insist on using from behind the play.

As I said before, we’ll probably just have to agree to disagree.