Heaven or Hell

[GAVol]

Personally, I think the answer is yes, but the good news is that it really doesn't matter. The "Big Brother" aspect gets overplayed and understandably makes people leery. God does not keep a scorecard.

 

[OWB]

God does not keep a scorecard.

Then how does he judge you on judgement day and what does he use as proof? If he has nothing, then couldn't you just deny it?

 

[CrystalEHS07]

Do you think God writes down everything we do in a notebook? Think he has a sweet computer setup that he uses? Maybe Tivo or DVR? Whatever it is, it has to be big to keep up with millions and millions of people.

That wouldn't be that spectacular anyway. The US Government does that on a daily basis.


~*Crystal*~

 

[GAVol]

Then how does he judge you on judgement day and what does he use as proof? If he has nothing, then couldn't you just deny it?

I'm probably nowhere near qualified to answer that, but I think God gave us a pretty good road map. I've always reconciled it like this: God gave us free will, forgiveness and most importantly two big rules: Love God and Love your neighbor as yourself.

:sermon complete - Go eat chicken:

 

[OWB]

That wouldn't be that spectacular anyway. The US Government does that on a daily basis.


~*Crystal*~

Preach it sister..

 

[CrystalEHS07]

:sermon complete - Go eat chicken:

I do feel sorry for preachers who have the monumental task of preaching before some big, church dinner. He has to know that no one has been listening to him for the past 20 minutes. All anyone can think about is heading downstairs and diving into a big plate of chicken and dumplins.

At least...that's how it is in Baptist churches. :birgits_giggle:


~*Crystal*~

 

[OWB]

no one has been listening to him for the past 20 minutes. All anyone can think about is heading downstairs and diving into a big plate of chicken and dumplins.

Sounds like a one way ticket to hell to me..

 

[GAVol]

Sounds like I'm in trouble.

 

[CrystalEHS07]

Sounds like a one way ticket to hell to me..

...don't like chicken and dumplins?

Then just substitute fried chicken and mashed potatoes.

It basically serves the same purpose.


~*Crystal*~

 

[OWB]

: God gave us free will, forgiveness and most importantly two big rules: Love God and Love your neighbor as yourself.

:sermon complete - Go eat chicken:

Well if that's the case, just from a practice what you preach standpoint, nobody should worry about being sent to hell right?

 

[GAVol]

Well if that's the case, just from a practice what you preach standpoint, nobody should worry about being sent to hell right?

Not if they truly practice what they preach. That's sort of a problem for a LOT of people though.

 

[OWB]

Not if they truly practice what they preach. That's sort of a problem for a LOT of people though.

I mean even if we sinned, shouldn't God forgive us and love us anyway?

 

[OWB]

Why is it all so complicated? If he's able to do this and create that, why can't he appear once in a while to set things straight? I mean, there's a big religious war going on right now, you'd think he would want to stop it right?

Or take disease, you think he could drop off a cure once in a while and help us out. What's the deal?

 

[WA_Vol]

I posted this in another thread, but its probably more relevant here.

You could use a thermodynamic analysis to make a case for the existence of God. Entropy being created by every process in which energy is converted from one form to another and entropy always increases and useable energy always decreases.

Entropy simply says no process is reversible. You cannot convert energy into one form and convert back to the original form, without expending more energy then was created by the original process.

So the question becomes, how did the earth begin with a zero or low entropy when every known process on the earth increases entropy and no process decreases entropy? This tends to make the case for a higher being who created the laws that the universe obeys since the earth could not have been created by any natural process and have zero to no entropy.

The only counter arguement I have ever heard is that the earth is not an isolated system which is weak IMO.

 

[OrangeEmpire]

Why is it all so complicated? If he's able to do this and create that, why can't he appear once in a while to set things straight? I mean, there's a big religious war going on right now, you'd think he would want to stop it right?

Or take disease, you think he could drop off a cure once in a while and help us out. What's the deal?

Genesis 3 the fall of man:

Adam and Eve sinned when they disobeyed God's command. Genesis 3:1-6.
When Adam and Eve sinned, they separated mankind from the good life God had given to mankind. Genesis 3:10, 23.
When Adam and Eve sinned, they damaged mankind's relationship with God. Genesis 3:8.
When Adam and Eve sinned, they brought physical suffering on mankind. Genesis 3:16-19.
God punished the sinners, Adam and Eve, and cursed the serpent who led Adam and Eve to sin. Genesis 3:14-19.
The effects of this single sin were felt not only by the sinners, but also all of mankind who followed. Genesis 3:15-19.

Situation 1. Cindy, Julie, and Tammy were riding their bicycles one afternoon. Cindy's and Julie's parents let them ride to the corner store and get a coke whenever they want. Tammy's parents never let her ride to the store without an adult. Cindy and Julie convince Tammy to ride to the store. When they go in the store, they meet Tammy's dad buying milk. Cindy and Julie led Tammy to disobey. Tammy disobeyed. The trust between Tammy and her parents has been damaged.

Situation 2. Tommy has a younger brother named Sam and a younger sister named Katy. The family rule says that no one eats in the TV room. Tommy always eats in the TV room when his parents are not around. One day Sam and Katy decided to eat a snack in the TV room since Tommy always did it. Sam spilled his juice and stained the carpet. Tommy's example led Sam and Katy to disobey. Sam and Katy disobeyed. The parents had to pay to repair the carpet. Trust in the family was damaged.

Romans 5.12 says that sin and death ENTERED the world because of the sin of Adam & Eve. This means that death was NOT present in the world before the sin of Adam & Eve.

Romans 6.23 says that the wages of SIN is death. If Adam & Eve had not sinned, there would have been no death.

Adam & Eve were NOT sinners when God created them. When they were created, Adam & Eve had no sin nature. In other words, they were neither good nor evil because they were innocent and had never been tested.

God Himself planted the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil for the very purpose of testing Adam & Eve as to whether they would choose "good" (trusting & obeying God) or "evil" (distrusting & disobeying God).

Or you can take another view that... Jews do not believe in the existence of Original Sin. The concept of Original Sin simply states that because Adam and Eve sinned in the Garden of Eden, they brought Death into the world. Every human being dies because Adam and Eve committed a sin, and for their sin, all humans are punished with death. However, the Bible describes something entirely different.

Adam and Eve were kicked out of the Garden of Eden because if they remained, they could eat the fruit of the Tree of Life, which would make them IMmortal. If Adam and Eve had to eat the fruit of the Tree of Life to become IMmortal, then they were created mortal to begin with. They did not bring Death into the world, and we don't die because they sinned. As a matter of Biblical fact, the answer to Question One shows that one person cannot die as the punishment for the sins committed by another.

We die because Death is a natural part of existence, and has been since from the moment the first human beings were created. That is why God told the animals, before Adam and Eve ate the fruit from The Tree Of The Knowledge Of Good And Evil, to be fruitful and to multiply, since they needed to replace themselves. God also told the same thing to Adam and Eve before they ate that fruit as well.

 

[smoke_em06]

Genesis 3 the fall of man:

Adam and Eve sinned when they disobeyed God's command. Genesis 3:1-6.
When Adam and Eve sinned, they separated mankind from the good life God had given to mankind. Genesis 3:10, 23.
When Adam and Eve sinned, they damaged mankind's relationship with God. Genesis 3:8.
When Adam and Eve sinned, they brought physical suffering on mankind. Genesis 3:16-19.
God punished the sinners, Adam and Eve, and cursed the serpent who led Adam and Eve to sin. Genesis 3:14-19.
The effects of this single sin were felt not only by the sinners, but also all of mankind who followed. Genesis 3:15-19.

Situation 1. Cindy, Julie, and Tammy were riding their bicycles one afternoon. Cindy's and Julie's parents let them ride to the corner store and get a coke whenever they want. Tammy's parents never let her ride to the store without an adult. Cindy and Julie convince Tammy to ride to the store. When they go in the store, they meet Tammy's dad buying milk. Cindy and Julie led Tammy to disobey. Tammy disobeyed. The trust between Tammy and her parents has been damaged.

Situation 2. Tommy has a younger brother named Sam and a younger sister named Katy. The family rule says that no one eats in the TV room. Tommy always eats in the TV room when his parents are not around. One day Sam and Katy decided to eat a snack in the TV room since Tommy always did it. Sam spilled his juice and stained the carpet. Tommy's example led Sam and Katy to disobey. Sam and Katy disobeyed. The parents had to pay to repair the carpet. Trust in the family was damaged.

Romans 5.12 says that sin and death ENTERED the world because of the sin of Adam & Eve. This means that death was NOT present in the world before the sin of Adam & Eve.

Romans 6.23 says that the wages of SIN is death. If Adam & Eve had not sinned, there would have been no death.

Adam & Eve were NOT sinners when God created them. When they were created, Adam & Eve had no sin nature. In other words, they were neither good nor evil because they were innocent and had never been tested.

God Himself planted the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil for the very purpose of testing Adam & Eve as to whether they would choose "good" (trusting & obeying God) or "evil" (distrusting & disobeying God).

Or you can take another view that... Jews do not believe in the existence of Original Sin. The concept of Original Sin simply states that because Adam and Eve sinned in the Garden of Eden, they brought Death into the world. Every human being dies because Adam and Eve committed a sin, and for their sin, all humans are punished with death. However, the Bible describes something entirely different.

Adam and Eve were kicked out of the Garden of Eden because if they remained, they could eat the fruit of the Tree of Life, which would make them IMmortal. If Adam and Eve had to eat the fruit of the Tree of Life to become IMmortal, then they were created mortal to begin with. They did not bring Death into the world, and we don't die because they sinned. As a matter of Biblical fact, the answer to Question One shows that one person cannot die as the punishment for the sins committed by another.

We die because Death is a natural part of existence, and has been since from the moment the first human beings were created. That is why God told the animals, before Adam and Eve ate the fruit from The Tree Of The Knowledge Of Good And Evil, to be fruitful and to multiply, since they needed to replace themselves. God also told the same thing to Adam and Eve before they ate that fruit as well.

This is why Christ died on the cross for OUR sins. Everyone is born a sinner into the world. There can be no cleansing of sins with salvation through the Lord Jesus Christ. It is very simple OWB. All a person has to do is accept and believe in the free gift that God has offered each and everyone of us.

 

[OrangeEmpire]

Now we can delve into the subject of Faith......

The word faith has various uses; its central meaning is similar to "belief", "trust" or "confidence", but unlike these terms, "faith" tends to imply a transpersonal rather than interpersonal relationship with God or a higher power.

Faith is in an aspect of the object and cannot be logically proven or objectively known. Faith can mean believing unconditionally. It can also be defined as accepting as true something that one has been told by someone who is believed to be trustworthy.

Many noted philosophers and theologians have espoused the idea that faith is the basis of all knowledge. One example is St. Augustine of Hippo. Known as one of his key contributions to philosophy, the idea of "faith seeking understanding" was set forth by St. Augustine in his statement "Crede, ut intelligas" ("Believe in order that you may understand"). This statement extends beyond the sphere of religion to encompass the totality of knowledge. In essence, "faith" must be present in order to know anything. In other words, one must assume, believe, or have "faith" the credibility of a person, place, thing, or idea in order to have a basis for knowledge.

Philosopher Descartes sought to challenge this idea in his statement "I think, therefore I am." It has however been argued that even the statement "I think" is based on faith in the existence a thing called "thought."

Sometimes, faith means a belief in a relationship with a deity. In this case, "faith" is used in the sense of "fidelity." Such a commitment need not be blind or submissive, although it often shares these types of characteristics. For many Jews, for example, the Hebrew Bible and Talmud depict a committed but contentious relationship between their God and the Children of Israel. For quite a lot of people, faith or the lack thereof, is an important part of their identities. E.g. a person will identify him or herself as a Muslim or a skeptic.

What is believed concerning God, in this sense, is at least in principle only as reliable as the evidence and the logic by which faith is supported.

Faith throughout religion:

Judaism
Christianity
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
Islam
Buddhism
Rastafari etc.....

Martin Luther on Faith
John Calvin
Charles Spurgeon
Skeptics Dictionary
Faith and Reason

 

[therealUT]

Smokem 06 has represented the Bible and Christianity better than anyone on this board.

Sure, if you're Catholic, then you will believe in Purgatory and praying "through" Saints.

Protestants just don't believe you can pray "through" other humans.

Why would any humans have any more significance in this world than any other humans?

And if you don't believe in Jesus, that's fine.

But if you do believe, you better not just believe on Sundays.

So, you nor anyone in your cogregations has ever asked for prayers? I asked this to Smoke Em and he dodged.

 

[OrangeSquare]

Interesting to me that OWB keeps poking fun and asking silly little questions, but when OrangeEmpire knocks one out of the park, it's like crickets chirping in here.

 

[smoke_em06]

Now we can delve into the subject of Faith......

The word faith has various uses; its central meaning is similar to "belief", "trust" or "confidence", but unlike these terms, "faith" tends to imply a transpersonal rather than interpersonal relationship with God or a higher power.

Faith is in an aspect of the object and cannot be logically proven or objectively known. Faith can mean believing unconditionally. It can also be defined as accepting as true something that one has been told by someone who is believed to be trustworthy.

Many noted philosophers and theologians have espoused the idea that faith is the basis of all knowledge. One example is St. Augustine of Hippo. Known as one of his key contributions to philosophy, the idea of "faith seeking understanding" was set forth by St. Augustine in his statement "Crede, ut intelligas" ("Believe in order that you may understand"). This statement extends beyond the sphere of religion to encompass the totality of knowledge. In essence, "faith" must be present in order to know anything. In other words, one must assume, believe, or have "faith" the credibility of a person, place, thing, or idea in order to have a basis for knowledge.

Philosopher Descartes sought to challenge this idea in his statement "I think, therefore I am." It has however been argued that even the statement "I think" is based on faith in the existence a thing called "thought."

Sometimes, faith means a belief in a relationship with a deity. In this case, "faith" is used in the sense of "fidelity." Such a commitment need not be blind or submissive, although it often shares these types of characteristics. For many Jews, for example, the Hebrew Bible and Talmud depict a committed but contentious relationship between their God and the Children of Israel. For quite a lot of people, faith or the lack thereof, is an important part of their identities. E.g. a person will identify him or herself as a Muslim or a skeptic.

What is believed concerning God, in this sense, is at least in principle only as reliable as the evidence and the logic by which faith is supported.

Faith throughout religion:

Judaism
Christianity
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
Islam
Buddhism
Rastafari

Martin Luther on Faith
John Calvin
Charles Spurgeon
Skeptics Dictionary
Faith and Reason

I have always called it blind faith. God says, "blessed is he who has not seen, yet he still believes." I base my faith in Christ on that. Christ says that he will reward us for our faith in him. I believe that is one of the biggest tests that God can give a person.

 

[smoke_em06]

So, you nor anyone in your cogregations has ever asked for prayers? I asked this to Smoke Em and he dodged.

You asked what to me? We certainly share prayer requests with one another. God answers prayers. We just don't go through Mary or anyone else besides God.

 

[smoke_em06]

Interesting to me that OWB keeps poking fun and asking silly little questions, but when OrangeEmpire knocks one out of the park, it's like crickets chirping in here.

He did do a great job.

 

[therealUT]

You asked what to me? We certainly share prayer requests with one another. God answers prayers. We just don't go through Mary or anyone else besides God.

You go through other living humans. We pray to God as well we also ask Mary and the Saints for their prayers.

 

[smoke_em06]

You go through other living humans. We pray to God as well we also ask Mary and the Saints for their prayers.

For some reason I just don't like the sound of "praying through other humans." I guess that is the same thing as asking other people to pray for you. I guess it is just me. Anyway, that is fair enough.

 

[OrangeEmpire]

Praying through other humans......interesting, let me think about this one for a bit.

therealUT we have to have a good discussion about Catholicism. I want to argue Catholicism truly gained its power through the deeds of Attila the Hun.