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#303
#303
InVOLuntary said:
If he struggled to recruit at UCLA how can one expect him to recruit here? Sounds very Don DeVoeish.
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The notiion that he struggled to recruit is misleading. He began to struggle recruiting the LA area because of some fallout for pulling a local kids scholarship and more of a general shift toward national recruiting. To flat out say he struggled recruiting is a farce. His final class was ranked #2 in the country behind the Nerlens Noel-led Kentucky class. It included Shabazz Muhammed, Kyle Anderson, Jordan Adams, and Tony Parker.

His real downfall began with the fact that he gave Reeves Nelson enough rope to not only hang himself, but choke out a couple teammates along the way. The guy was a total cancer to his own team, and Howland allowed him to stay around far too long. His presence created and fostered a culture of substance abuse, disrespect, and genuine apathy that spread quickly throughout.

Howland was never short on talent at UCLA, but he didn't rein in the bad behavior and poor decisions of his players quickly enough, starting with Nelson. It eventually led to his downfall.
 
#306
#306
governmentmule said:
damn you were right :)
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Pearl and Howland are two different subjects. One literally has nothing to do with the other. You don't have to be pro-Pearl, anti-Pearl, or indifferent to have an opinion on Howland.

So, no, he/she wasn't right. He/she just has an obvious agenda, and anything that isn't painting Bruce Pearl in a positive light is viewed as anti-Pearl, even if it is totally unrelated.
 
#307
#307
cncchris33 said:
The notiion that he struggled to recruit is misleading. He began to struggle recruiting the LA area because of some fallout for pulling a local kids scholarship and more of a general shift toward national recruiting. To flat out say he struggled recruiting is a farce. His final class was ranked #2 in the country behind the Nerlens Noel-led Kentucky class. It included Shabazz Muhammed, Kyle Anderson, Jordan Adams, and Tony Parker.

His real downfall began with the fact that he gave Reeves Nelson enough rope to not only hang himself, but choke out a couple teammates along the way. The guy was a total cancer to his own team, and Howland allowed him to stay around far too long. His presence created and fostered a culture of substance abuse, disrespect, and genuine apathy that spread quickly throughout.

Howland was never short on talent at UCLA, but he didn't rein in the bad behavior and poor decisions of his players quickly enough, starting with Nelson. It eventually led to his downfall.
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Does his apparent inability to control his players not raise a red flag too? I'm only asking because I'm not familiar. It seems like contolling the kids today is becoming more and more of an issue.
 
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#308
#308
patrick said:
The best attainable coach for the Vols is CBP. However, the Administration (namely Cheek) would have to get out of the way for it happen or be threatened will ouster. He would jump at the chance to coach here again.
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Why must Pearl be brought up in every thread about a coaching search? The man lied to the NCAA and was given a show-cause as a result. I am grateful for everything he did for UT basketball, but, he should not be hired back. Period. It's time to move on...
 
#309
#309
InVOLuntary said:
Does his apparent inability to control his players not raise a red flag too? I'm only asking because I'm not familiar. It seems like contolling the kids today is becoming more and more of an issue.
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It should raise a red flag, but it raises a red flag on a lot of coaches. Pitino just had to boot one of his best players (Behanan). Pearl had to boot Tyler Smith, Ramar Smith, Duke Crews, and Major Wingate.

Your last sentence is the real problem. Kids are growing up with less rules, discipline and structure, and they get to the real world and get hit with a rral eye-opener. Some coaches have given certain players far too much latitude with behavior problems (DaRick Rogers for example). Other players see this, and push the envelope themselves.

Hopefully, Howland learned a valuable lesson on how easy it is to lose control of a group by losing control of one.
 
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#310
#310
cncchris33 said:
It should raise a red flag, but it raises a red flag on a lot of coaches. Pitino just had to boot one of his best players (Behanan). Pearl had to boot Tyler Smith, Ramar Smith, Duke Crews, and Major Wingate.

Your last sentence is the real problem. Kids are growing up with less rules, discipline and structure, and they get to the real world and get hit with a rral eye-opener. Some coaches have given certain players far too much latitude with behavior problems (DaRick Rogers for example). Other players see this, and push the envelope themselves.

Hopefully, Howland learned a valuable lesson on how easy it is to lose control of a group by losing control of one.
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Kids today seem so willing to be apart of the "gansta" lifestyle. Has a lot to do with how hollywood glamorizes it.

On another note, I think UT is unique in that it seems to excell with a coach that has a larger than life personality. Sort of a showman if you will. How does Howland compare to this?
 
#311
#311
InVOLuntary said:
Kids today seem so willing to be apart of the "gansta" lifestyle. Has a lot to do with how hollywood glamorizes it.

On another note, I think UT is unique in that it seems to excell with a coach that has a larger than life personality. Sort of a showman if you will. How does Howland compare to this?
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Howland and his offense are boring. He averaged about what Martin's teams average per game with a roster full of NBA players. We could do better but we could do way worse also.
 
#312
#312
k-town_king said:
Howland and his offense are boring. He averaged about what Martin's teams average per game with a roster full of NBA players. We could do better but we could do way worse also.
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If I we can't have CBP, I would like to have someone that has an uptempo offense, has a larger than life persona, stresses fundamentals, takes advantage of "cheapies" (I.e, out of bounds plays), embraces the traditions, and outwardly appreciates the fanbase. Awe crap, I just described CBP didn't I?
 
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#313
#313
k-town_king said:
Howland and his offense are boring. He averaged about what Martin's teams average per game with a roster full of NBA players. We could do better but we could do way worse also.
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You don't have to average 85 or 90 ppg to be entertaining and win, and having a roster ful of NBA players doesn't necessarily equate to outrageous offensive games when that talent plays within a system. Jim Boeheim doesn't run some flashy offense. Neither does Bo Ryan, Billy Donovan, or Buzz Williams, yet they all have had plenty of NBA players in their system. Howland's three straight Final Four appearances speak for themselves. You're right, we could do a lot worse, but if I'm being realistic, Howland is our ceiling for a new hire.
 
#314
#314
InVOLuntary said:
If he struggled to recruit at UCLA how can one expect him to recruit here? Sounds very Don DeVoeish.
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First, UCLA is a very difficult job as Howland was fired after winning the Pac 12. But, as the article mentioned, he didn't struggle recruiting his first 6 years. He must have a knack for talent since Westbrook, Collison, Love, Farmar, Jrue Holiday, Ryan Hollins, Mbah a Moute, and Muhammed are all NBA players. Pretty impressive list. As the article says, he made a terrible strategic decision about pulling an offer that caused AAU coaches not to trust him. He went to three straight Final Fours, so recruiting wasn't a problem.

All of this said, if UT fans are frustrated watching CCM's teams, then Howland won't be much better. His style is a defensive-minded grind it out kind of basketball.
 
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#315
#315
cncchris33 said:
The notiion that he struggled to recruit is misleading. He began to struggle recruiting the LA area because of some fallout for pulling a local kids scholarship and more of a general shift toward national recruiting. To flat out say he struggled recruiting is a farce. His final class was ranked #2 in the country behind the Nerlens Noel-led Kentucky class. It included Shabazz Muhammed, Kyle Anderson, Jordan Adams, and Tony Parker.

His real downfall began with the fact that he gave Reeves Nelson enough rope to not only hang himself, but choke out a couple teammates along the way. The guy was a total cancer to his own team, and Howland allowed him to stay around far too long. His presence created and fostered a culture of substance abuse, disrespect, and genuine apathy that spread quickly throughout.

Howland was never short on talent at UCLA, but he didn't rein in the bad behavior and poor decisions of his players quickly enough, starting with Nelson. It eventually led to his downfall.
Click to expand...

Sorry, Chris. I didn't read far enough. Didn't mean to steal your thoughts.
 
#317
#317
cncchris33 said:
You don't have to average 85 or 90 ppg to be entertaining and win, and having a roster ful of NBA players doesn't necessarily equate to outrageous offensive games when that talent plays within a system. Jim Boeheim doesn't run some flashy offense. Neither does Bo Ryan, Billy Donovan, or Buzz Williams, yet they all have had plenty of NBA players in their system. Howland's three straight Final Four appearances speak for themselves. You're right, we could do a lot worse, but if I'm being realistic, Howland is our ceiling for a new hire.
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His teams were boring to watch. Agents and players have complained about the system getting them drafted lower than they should have. Yes he went to three straight. That is impressive. The thing is most think he would have won a title one of those years if his offense was better. I think that is very true. He averaged between 67.7 and 73.5 points those FF years with a whole bunch of NBAers including two First Team All NBA players. People would have a fit if our o was like that.

But every coach gets NBA type players at UCLA. Lavin had at least 2 and usually 3 or more NBA players. They are one of the greatest programs of all time and in a major city with great weather and all types of advantages. Can he get them at UT? If not will we score 60 a game? He scored about 70 with NBA All Pros on the squad.

Also all the other coaches you named teams score more than those stacked UCLA teams. The only exception is Bo Ryan who is just ok. He has been knocked out in the first or second round 7 of 12 years at Wis with several huge upsets. No one thinks they will win a NC anytime soon.

Yes Howland is a good coach. But not a great coach. He couldn't get past the Sweet 16 at Pitt. I don't think he can have 6 or 7 NBA prospects like he did at UCLA here. I think his offense would make people here sick and he won't get the talent to make up for his horrible system.

I wouldn't be mad at the hire but he is not the best candidate to me. Smart, who probably won't come or a younger guy with NBA ties and an uptempo system would be better to me. Just my opinion though. But I do think we could do a lot worse.
 
#318
#318
k-town_king said:
His teams were boring to watch. Agents and players have complained about the system getting them drafted lower than they should have. Yes he went to three straight. That is impressive. The thing is most think he would have won a title one of those years if his offense was better. I think that is very true. He averaged between 67.7 and 73.5 points those FF years with a whole bunch of NBAers including two First Team All NBA players. People would have a fit if our o was like that.

But every coach gets NBA type players at UCLA. Lavin had at least 2 and usually 3 or more NBA players. They are one of the greatest programs of all time and in a major city with great weather and all types of advantages. Can he get them at UT? If not will we score 60 a game? He scored about 70 with NBA All Pros on the squad.

Also all the other coaches you named teams score more than those stacked UCLA teams. The only exception is Bo Ryan who is just ok. He has been knocked out in the first or second round 7 of 12 years at Wis with several huge upsets. No one thinks they will win a NC anytime soon.

Yes Howland is a good coach. But not a great coach. He couldn't get past the Sweet 16 at Pitt. I don't think he can have 6 or 7 NBA prospects like he did at UCLA here. I think his offense would make people here sick and he won't get the talent to make up for his horrible system.

I wouldn't be mad at the hire but he is not the best candidate to me. Smart, who probably won't come or a younger guy with NBA ties and an uptempo system would be better to me. Just my opinion though. But I do think we could do a lot worse.
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You have some fair points, but getting someone like Smart will cost a boatload of money. We have proven we won't spend that kind of money. I'd prefer a guy with Howland's track record over the route we have chosen to take from the beginning of time. Are there guys I'd rather have? Sure, but they either aren't coming here, or we aren't going to pay them enough to come here.

The coaches I listed aren't averaging much more, if any, than Howland's UCLA teams did, at least this season. Florida: 71.8, Cuse: 71.6, Marquette: 71.6. Wisconsin at 75.2 ppg, is actually the greatest outlier. Again, having a bunch of future NBA players doesn't equate to scoring a ton of points in a system that isn't fast-paced. I find the faster tempo more entertaining too, but not at the expense of wins.
 
#319
#319
VolGee4 said:
First, UCLA is a very difficult job as Howland was fired after winning the Pac 12. But, as the article mentioned, he didn't struggle recruiting his first 6 years. He must have a knack for talent since Westbrook, Collison, Love, Farmar, Jrue Holiday, Ryan Hollins, Mbah a Moute, and Muhammed are all NBA players. Pretty impressive list. As the article says, he made a terrible strategic decision about pulling an offer that caused AAU coaches not to trust him. He went to three straight Final Fours, so recruiting wasn't a problem.

All of this said, if UT fans are frustrated watching CCM's teams, then Howland won't be much better. His style is a defensive-minded grind it out kind of basketball.
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Yep. 2 final 4s and a runner up would suck.
 
#321
#321
VolGee4 said:
Oh you know people would be on here *****ing about how boring it was. I wasn't saying I would, but there are always those that will.
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We look good and lose. Look bad and lose.
Wouldn't mind a little boredom if we just win win win.
I am a little bored with losing.
 
#323
#323
jknox33 said:
CA, I've been impressed with Wade. I used to live in Chatt and still follow the team. What he's done with the mess Shulman left has been incredible. He's also a guy that recruits his system as well. Exciting brand for sure. UTC may be a stepping stone for him. Unless he makes a deep run in the tourney, I think most ADs would wait for year 3 results.
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Agreed. I live near chatt and attended a coaching clinic he did as well as seen them play several times. I will be tooting his horn until we or someone else hires him
 
#324
#324
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