HBO's "Game of Thrones"

#4,801
#4,801
I understand the why of the issue with character development/perception in a literary to visual translation. I am different from you. I read the books before the show. Somebody on a Tolkien LotR site turned me on to them 15 years ago. Strangely though I haven't read tWoW yet. I figured I would just let the show play out, and then finish the books....that is if Martin ever gets around to finishing them and doesn't die like Robert Jordan. I hope that like Jordan he has a handpicked author picked out to finish his story if something does happen. Brandon Sanderson did a great job on the The Wheel of Time finish.
 
#4,802
#4,802
Another secret that Sansa is keeping from everyone in the House...

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She has the Golden Power of Veto.
 
#4,803
#4,803
Ulysees E. McGill said:
I understand the why of the issue with character development/perception in a literary to visual translation. I am different from you. I read the books before the show. Somebody on a Tolkien LotR site turned me on to them 15 years ago. Strangely though I haven't read tWoW yet. I figured I would just let the show play out, and then finish the books....that is if Martin ever gets around to finishing them and doesn't die like Robert Jordan. I hope that like Jordan he has a handpicked author picked out to finish his story if something does happen. Brandon Sanderson did a great job on the The Wheel of Time finish.
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I wasn't trying to preach to you. As an apparent fellow reader, I was sure you had noticed the dynamic. Martin does look like he has a thrombosis waiting to happen.
 
#4,805
#4,805
Ulysees E. McGill said:
I understand the why of the issue with character development/perception in a literary to visual translation. I am different from you. I read the books before the show. Somebody on a Tolkien LotR site turned me on to them 15 years ago. Strangely though I haven't read tWoW yet. I figured I would just let the show play out, and then finish the books....that is if Martin ever gets around to finishing them and doesn't die like Robert Jordan. I hope that like Jordan he has a handpicked author picked out to finish his story if something does happen. Brandon Sanderson did a great job on the The Wheel of Time finish.
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Well it's not really that strange, as it hasn't been finished/released yet haha
 
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#4,806
#4,806
Regulator, if you are referring to the short haired sand snake, I feel you bro!!
 
#4,812
#4,812
Ulysees E. McGill said:
Ned Stark...Coward? Wow..that's out there. I'm not going to start arguing with you though. It's your opinion..so just go with it I guess. Since you say you've read the books. It is just a really off the wall perception of the overall story. Robert Baratheon would have done exactly what Lyanna was afraid of, if he really knew she ran off with Rhaegar, he would have killed her too, and Ned never bragged about how he killed Arthur Dayne in any book I can think of. Whatever people thought about how heroic it was, came from somewhere else.
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Ulysees E. McGill said:
Yeah..I'm not buying that he read the books.
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tvolsfan said:
In the show, it was implied that Bran had been under the impression his father defeated Dayne (although it doesn't necessarily mean he performed some incredible feat). I can't remember if Ned mentioned Howland Reed saving him in the show or not.

In any case, Ned certainly wasn't boasting about it, books or show. He freely admitted there were better fighters out there, and Dayne was one of them.
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And I'm not buying that you understand the concept of distinguishing what is or isn't a brave action. A coward is a person who lies or is dishonest or runs from a challenge. Ned knew the truth about the situation and forced a kid to be raised in a ****ty environment, such that Tyrion Lannister has to give him advice about dealing with it. Furthermore, there is NO chance that if he told his wife the truth she would have told anyone, let alone Robert, and at the least Jon wouldn't have grown up his entire life resented and hated by her as well.

But to further compound issues, now Bran knows the truth and realizes that if his father was full of **** about the tower of joy and Jon, then what else was he lying about?

It seems the concepts that Martin, and several other famous writers go for, are completely lost on you. Because the idea of flawed characters, such as Ned being a coward in the most important event of his life and then leading the rest of his life in an attempt to rectify that, creates interesting dynamics and future possibilities.

But hey, according to your expert analysis, I've never read the books, so what could I know? The idea that a fan favorite character could be much more complex than "always honorable" seems lost on many for some reason, despite the idea that it clearly disagrees with what Martin has written and what the show has shown as well.
 
#4,813
#4,813
Daloth said:
And I'm not buying that you understand the concept of distinguishing what is or isn't a brave action. A coward is a person who lies or is dishonest or runs from a challenge. Ned knew the truth about the situation and forced a kid to be raised in a ****ty environment, such that Tyrion Lannister has to give him advice about dealing with it. Furthermore, there is NO chance that if he told his wife the truth she would have told anyone, let alone Robert, and at the least Jon wouldn't have grown up his entire life resented and hated by her as well.

But to further compound issues, now Bran knows the truth and realizes that if his father was full of **** about the tower of joy and Jon, then what else was he lying about?

It seems the concepts that Martin, and several other famous writers go for, are completely lost on you. Because the idea of flawed characters, such as Ned being a coward in the most important event of his life and then leading the rest of his life in an attempt to rectify that, creates interesting dynamics and future possibilities.

But hey, according to your expert analysis, I've never read the books, so what could I know? The idea that a fan favorite character could be much more complex than "always honorable" seems lost on many for some reason, despite the idea that it clearly disagrees with what Martin has written and what the show has shown as well.
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Ok..good for you.
 
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#4,814
#4,814
Daloth said:
And I'm not buying that you understand the concept of distinguishing what is or isn't a brave action. A coward is a person who lies or is dishonest or runs from a challenge. Ned knew the truth about the situation and forced a kid to be raised in a ****ty environment, such that Tyrion Lannister has to give him advice about dealing with it. Furthermore, there is NO chance that if he told his wife the truth she would have told anyone, let alone Robert, and at the least Jon wouldn't have grown up his entire life resented and hated by her as well.

But to further compound issues, now Bran knows the truth and realizes that if his father was full of **** about the tower of joy and Jon, then what else was he lying about?

It seems the concepts that Martin, and several other famous writers go for, are completely lost on you. Because the idea of flawed characters, such as Ned being a coward in the most important event of his life and then leading the rest of his life in an attempt to rectify that, creates interesting dynamics and future possibilities.

But hey, according to your expert analysis, I've never read the books, so what could I know? The idea that a fan favorite character could be much more complex than "always honorable" seems lost on many for some reason, despite the idea that it clearly disagrees with what Martin has written and what the show has shown as well.
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Yeah, execept this makes Ned look more honorable in the eyes of just about everyone.

And I definitely understand why he doesn't tell Cat.
 
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#4,815
#4,815
tvolsfan said:
Yeah, execept this makes Ned look more honorable in the eyes of just about everyone.

And I definitely understand why he doesn't tell Cat.
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Absolutely no sense in arguing this point. This guy assumes that because Bran and others believed something happened in a way that it didn't, it is because Ned told a braggarts lie. In the books it is said over and over and over that Ned never talked about what happened at the Tower of Joy. He only said that Arthur Dayne was the best knight he ever faced in combat. But this guy has his own thing going on in his mind...so like I said...Good for him. To each his own.
 
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#4,816
#4,816
I think the reason ES lied about Jon was, all of the targaryen children that weren't hid were killed. and, ES loved his sister, so he hid Jon away at wintefell.

RB and ES were also very good friends. And, if RB finds out who Jon is, more than likely RB marches on winterfell.

So hiding Jon away and saying Jon is his bastard son, saves a lot of lives. And, it saves RB and ES relationship.
 
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#4,817
#4,817
loggervol said:
I think the reason ES lied about Jon was, all of the targaryen children that weren't hid were killed. and, ES loved his sister, so he hid Jon away at wintefell.

RB and ES were also very good friends. And, if RB finds out who Jon is, more than likely RB marches on winterfell.

So hiding Jon away and saying Jon is his bastard son, saves a lot of lives. And, it saves RB and ES relationship.
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Good summation
 
#4,818
#4,818
I almost think that RB knew that Jon was not NS's bastard. I'm not saying that he knew that Jon was LS's son, but RB knew that NS was a man of honor and couldn't believe that he would cheat on CS. He said something along the lines "that he would love to hear about the woman that made Ned lose his vows" or something similar, like he didn't believe it. Did RB know that Ned went to the tower of joy? If so, he might have suspected that Jon was LS's.
 
#4,819
#4,819
Stoked said:
I almost think that RB knew that Jon was not NS's bastard. I'm not saying that he knew that Jon was LS's son, but RB knew that NS was a man of honor and couldn't believe that he would cheat on CS. He said something along the lines "that he would love to hear about the woman that made Ned lose his vows" or something similar, like he didn't believe it. Did RB know that Ned went to the tower of joy? If so, he might have suspected that Jon was LS's.
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Both book and season one makes it clear Robert had no idea. He thought this 'Wylla' must have been a special woman.
 
#4,821
#4,821
Daloth said:
And I'm not buying that you understand the concept of distinguishing what is or isn't a brave action. A coward is a person who lies or is dishonest or runs from a challenge. Ned knew the truth about the situation and forced a kid to be raised in a ****ty environment, such that Tyrion Lannister has to give him advice about dealing with it. Furthermore, there is NO chance that if he told his wife the truth she would have told anyone, let alone Robert, and at the least Jon wouldn't have grown up his entire life resented and hated by her as well.

But to further compound issues, now Bran knows the truth and realizes that if his father was full of **** about the tower of joy and Jon, then what else was he lying about?

It seems the concepts that Martin, and several other famous writers go for, are completely lost on you. Because the idea of flawed characters, such as Ned being a coward in the most important event of his life and then leading the rest of his life in an attempt to rectify that, creates interesting dynamics and future possibilities.

But hey, according to your expert analysis, I've never read the books, so what could I know? The idea that a fan favorite character could be much more complex than "always honorable" seems lost on many for some reason, despite the idea that it clearly disagrees with what Martin has written and what the show has shown as well.
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Except for the fact that Cat hates Jon. I think the only reason Ned let him go to the wall was because Cat would not have let Jon stay at Winterfell after Ned left for Kings Landing. Also the fight at the Tower of Joy we don't really know what Ned had said about that in the books. He always gives credit to Howland Reed for saving his life and never says that he actually beat the Sword of the Morning.
 
#4,823
#4,823
KS wasn't the only reason JS was sent to the wall. I believe at the time ES thought he was also protecting Jon by encouraging him to go to the wall.

And, it wasn't a coincidence that Jon was made the Bear's predecessor. There was already a Stark serving at the wall. Yet Jon was taken under the Bears wing to be groomed to be the next commander of the nights watch.
 
#4,824
#4,824
Daloth said:
A coward is a person who lies or is dishonest or runs from a challenge. Ned knew the truth about the situation and forced a kid to be raised in a ****ty environment, such that Tyrion Lannister has to give him advice about dealing with it. Furthermore, there is NO chance that if he told his wife the truth she would have told anyone, let alone Robert, and at the least Jon wouldn't have grown up his entire life resented and hated by her as well.
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Cat hadn't been married to Ned for long when he went off to fight Roberts rebellion. A few months at most. She was to be his brothers wife before Brandon was killed. Ned was the replacement. The Cat we meet in season 1 may have been able to keep a secret but Ned may not have trusted her at that point in their marriage when he returned with Jon(or anyone other than howland for that matter). Plus It helped to sell the story that Jon was a bastard. Cat hated Jon and everyone knew it. No chance anyone would have considered Jon was not really Ned's bastard.

This way he gets to raise his nephew. Gives him a better life than most will ever see. The alternative for Jon if anyone finds out who he is? Probably death as soon as it's suspected. Being born with targaryan blood after their downfall guaranteed him hardship. Ned minimized about as much as he could I think.
 
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#4,825
#4,825
Daloth said:
And I'm not buying that you understand the concept of distinguishing what is or isn't a brave action. A coward is a person who lies or is dishonest or runs from a challenge. Ned knew the truth about the situation and forced a kid to be raised in a ****ty environment, such that Tyrion Lannister has to give him advice about dealing with it. Furthermore, there is NO chance that if he told his wife the truth she would have told anyone, let alone Robert, and at the least Jon wouldn't have grown up his entire life resented and hated by her as well.

But to further compound issues, now Bran knows the truth and realizes that if his father was full of **** about the tower of joy and Jon, then what else was he lying about?

It seems the concepts that Martin, and several other famous writers go for, are completely lost on you. Because the idea of flawed characters, such as Ned being a coward in the most important event of his life and then leading the rest of his life in an attempt to rectify that, creates interesting dynamics and future possibilities.

But hey, according to your expert analysis, I've never read the books, so what could I know? The idea that a fan favorite character could be much more complex than "always honorable" seems lost on many for some reason, despite the idea that it clearly disagrees with what Martin has written and what the show has shown as well.
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Ned was no coward.
When he was Hand of the King, and Robert Baratheon wanted him to kill Danaerys Targaryean at the rumor she was pregnant by Khal Drago- Ned told Robert(King) to go eff himself!

Ned did not want to possibly hurt or kill his friend Robert. Robert would have forced his hand had Jons parentage been disclosed.

Robert was hurt in so many ways about Lyanna. As a result he would have wiped out every Targaryean he could catch.

If Ned was a coward, then Ramsay Bolton was the Prince that was Promised.
 
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