Gun control debate (merged)

#28,053
#28,053
Jxn Vol said:
Gun control works great. Just look at Chicago.
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I love the Chicago example because Chicago is a great example of why the laws need to be federalized.
Chicago's gun problems are largely the result of the lax laws of surrounding states.
 
#28,057
#28,057
turbovol said:
Yes, you start making it a little harder to purchase guns, you get rid of the most dangerous weapons, you take a hard line on anybody
who might pose a risk to public safety should he buy a gun, you devote more resources to mental health.....A starting point....
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I am ignoring all the rest to focus on this.

what do you consider more dangerous: the guns that actually end up being used to kill more people, or the guns that YOU BELIEVE has a POTENTIAL to kill more people.

are sharks or dogs more dangerous? One has more "potential", but the other has more "realized" harm. The problem with your stance is that you want to focus on the POTENTIAL while ignoring the REALIZED. its a backwards argument that shows its not about saving lives.

If you cared, actually cared about saving lives, you would ban handguns first. they kill 20x the number of people of ALL rifles. and ARs and other "assault weapons" make up a subset of those rifles. limiting the potential is pointless, you will not see a significant decrease in the actual deaths or actual mass shootings.

I always get a chuckle out of people worried about ARs and not pistols. Pistols are just as semi automatic as an AR. Pistols have "large capacity magazines", just like ARs. Pistols typically fire a larger diameter bullet than an AR. 9mm, vs 5.56mm. Pistols are easier to conceal than an AR. at the ranges of pretty much any mass shooting, Las Vegas being the most recent exception, pistols are easier to handle and keep accurate. They are typically easier to handle, reload, and keep on target than an AR.

you are ignoring the plank in the eye because you think the splinter is the problem.
 
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#28,058
#28,058
hog88 said:
It depends on who's using the term.
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I think there is room for subjectivity. Two feuding groups opening fire on each other can be different than a scenario where an armed person(s) is/are firing on innocent people.
 
#28,059
#28,059
I wonder what the data show when defined parameters are assigned to mass shooting and mass attack events. We are all aware of how firearm homicide data changes dramatically when suicides are culled.
 
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#28,062
#28,062
McDad said:
I think there is room for subjectivity. Two feuding groups opening fire on each other can be different than a scenario where an armed person(s) is/are firing on innocent people.
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I think we need to differentiate between gang/mob/crimes for profit shootings, domestic crimes of passion from other random mass shooting events.
 
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#28,065
#28,065
luthervol said:
Nope. That's where your argument falls apart. Because the natural extension of that premise is that everyone is armed with the most deadly weaponry available at all times.
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No, your logic fails, as usual. Criminals won't follow your unconstitutional law, they'll still be armed to the teeth. It is my right to put myself on equal footing as the criminals. By the way, are we not defunding the police now or what?
 
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#28,066
#28,066
luthervol said:
I love the Chicago example because Chicago is a great example of why the laws need to be federalized.
Chicago's gun problems are largely the result of the lax laws of surrounding states.
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Chicago's problems are largely due to the lack of personal responsibility.

Freedom without personal responsibility is a bad recipe for society.

"In the process of gaining our rightful place, we must not be guilty of wrongful deeds. Let us not seek to satisfy our thirst for freedom by drinking from the cup of bitterness and hatred. We must forever conduct our struggle on the high plane of dignity and discipline." - Martin Luther King Jr.
 
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#28,067
#28,067
McDad said:
Chicago's problems are largely due to the lack of personal responsibility.

Freedom without personal responsibility is a bad recipe for society.

"In the process of gaining our rightful place, we must not be guilty of wrongful deeds. Let us not seek to satisfy our thirst for freedom by drinking from the cup of bitterness and hatred. We must forever conduct our struggle on the high plane of dignity and discipline." - Martin Luther King Jr.
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Chicago has many problems, same with every area. I specifically said "gun" problem.

And MLK was great. Shocking he was hated by so many at the time.....and still some today.
 
#28,068
#28,068
luthervol said:
I would define it as a mass shooting. That's the problem with concrete, black and white, definitions. But so many here in the PF can only function with the concrete (black and white). You know me, I'm a continuum man.
And I would place your example on the low end of the "mass shooting" continuum.
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I agree to an extent.

I would place my example in the horrific category though.
 
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#28,069
#28,069
hog88 said:
I think we need to differentiate between gang/mob/crimes for profit shootings, domestic crimes of passion from other random mass shooting events.
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I agree with applying some subjectivity. Whether that be innocent/criminal, domestic/public, or gang/individual(s) is fine by me.

I also think arguing about guns without quantifying how many crimes are prevented, thwarted, or brought to swift conclusion by the use or display of guns is disingenuous. To assess a tool's impact on society both the pros and cons should be evaluated.
 
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#28,070
#28,070
luthervol said:
Chicago has many problems, same with every area. I specifically said "gun" problem.

And MLK was great. Shocking he was hated by so many at the time.....and still some today.
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try not to be a d!ck.

I was not arguing any point you made.

And my thought about personal responsibility are applicable to the criminals of Chicago and those who arm them.

Now kindly **** off.
 
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#28,072
#28,072
turbovol said:
The self-protection argument is nothing more than an NRA marketing campaign. It's a scheme to sell guns--has been for, what, 30 years? The chances that anyone would actually need a gun for self-protection are incredibly remote--you're more likely to accidentally shoot yourself or some innocent person. The NRA likes to throw out stats showing huge numbers of cases where "good guys with guns" stopped "bad guys with guns"--but their numbers are totally fraudulent. Bad guys with guns ARE shot and killed--as happened with the Texas mall killer, but it usually happens after they've murdered a half dozen or more people.

The "responsible gun owner" notion is a myth. Once someone buys a guy, he has the potential to become a bad guy with a gun. Why do so many young urban black men carry guns? Answer: self protection! They get guns--most of them--for the same reason you do--except they have a more legitimate need than some guy in an American suburb. Now, once they get a gun, some of them do stupid things--decide to use their gun to rob somebody of $40 or a bag of weed---and end up dead or in prison, but a lot of them get guns in the first place because they know other people in their neighborhood or peer group have guns. Look at the white gun crazies: They argue even MORE people should get guns to protect themselves against all the other people with guns. It's insane, stupid--uncivilized.

Life circumstances change constantly. "Good guys" get into divorce and custody battles with their wives/ex-wives, get angry and start shooting. It happens a lot. Sacked employees come back to the office with a gun to take their revenge. Multiple cases. Mental problems develop. Look at the Las Vegas shooter---deadliest mass shooting in American history. No criminal record. No documented mental problems--though he'd clearly developed some at some point before killing 67 people (or whatever the number) and wounding some 200 others. No case better illustrates the problem with easy gun ownership and lax regulations.

https://www.cnn.com/2017/10/02/us/las-vegas-attack-stephen-paddock-trnd/index.html
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I have had two cases where I could have used a gun for self protection. My car gotten broken into this year, and a couple years ago someone tried to rob me. My car getting broken into I couldn't stop. The guy trying to rob me was stopped by someone else, who had a gun. I have not shot anyone, yet alone twice.

you actually point out the flaw in your argument. you conflate two very different circumstances. what someone does in the suburbs, vs what someone does in an urban setting. you ascribe the results of the urban setting to the suburbs, which is simply untrue.

+100,000,000 gun owners
45,000 gun deaths a year (including 24k suicides)
it would take over 2000 years for your "good guy with a gun" to do harm. obviously most of us don't live that long, which is why the rates of good guys going bad are so low. if you remove suicides it gets close to 4500 years for a good guy to go bad. even in the gun crazed US.

what is "a lot"? we have 330 million people. even something with a one in a million chance is going to happen 330 times a DAY in the US. a one in a billion chance will happen every three days. is that "a lot"?

you also only assign someone as "going bad" when they go shooting. as if it was the gun that made them bad. their turn to violence began long before then, even these mass shooters didn't wake up one day and decide to go shooting. they plan this out, they were "bad" from that point on, regardless of them owning a gun or not.

I am not sure how you plan to police 400 million guns (extremely low estimate btw), when we can't even police 330 million people.
 
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#28,073
#28,073
turbovol said:
yea, I know about stop and frisk. I'm not opposed to it in urban areas awash in guns....It's one thing I'm conservative about....

As for government vs. "freedom," we have a serious gun-violence problem in America. Go take a look at the photo circulating of the dead in Allen, Texas--including the 5-year-old kid. I don't care about some redneck's desire to play with assault rifles because he's got so little else going on his life....Sorry.
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lol what?
 
#28,074
#28,074
luthervol said:
I can't wait for the first UT vs bama open carry game. Storming the field will take on a whole new meaning.
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Shaky Knees went just fine. Allowed to carry there. I would say there were close to 150k people there, including many of Turbo's "urban blacks". no shooting. There was even a performer there named "Killer Mike".
 
#28,075
#28,075
McDad said:
try not to be a d!ck.

I was not arguing any point you made.

And my thought about personal responsibility are applicable to the criminals of Chicago and those who arm them.

Now kindly **** off.
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A lack of personal responsibility is pretty much the root of every problem, everywhere. The people who are personally responsible but are suffering at the hands of those who are not is the issue. In Chicago, and everywhere.
The d!ck and the **** off comments were a bit uncalled for - you seem a little overly sensitive today.
 
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