Gun control debate (merged)

#23,251
#23,251
Volatility said:
Well for starters, I’m not on the left. Again, accounting for all races, we clearly have more gun deaths/school shootings compared to other first world nations.

In addition to having more access to guns compared to European countries, American culture is way more individualistic. Our country is pro-illegal immigration (cheap labor for republicans, free votes for democrats). Most EU countries are either keen on keeping it white or keen on importing Muslims. America has only two serious choices in politics whereas other countries have more. We’re also much more inclined to use our tax dollars on military instead of ourselves.

That was just off the top of my head.
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Interesting , we had more access to firearms when I was growing up , and I’d say we are actually less individualist as a whole now than we were then with everything being instant gratification and all knowledge at your finger tips from every corner of the planet .
 
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#23,253
#23,253
Volatility said:
I don’t think it can be prevented entirely, but that’s not the goal anyway. I do think better laws and controls can reduce the risk of psychos getting their hands on powerful weapons.
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I just watched a man get beat to death with a traffic cone. Cars, bike chains, wood, baseball bats are all weapons I’ve seen lately that caused someone’s death. Evil picks a weapon and succeeds. Until we stop raising sociopaths or lock them up at signs they have it, it will continue.
The 2 year old cussing and kicking a cop is a lost cause if they don’t change his environment in the next 4 years. We are in a viscous cycle right now. It’s gotta break somewhere and it’s way before 18.
 
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#23,254
#23,254
Vol8188 said:
No you didn't. But you did say this "Again, accounting for all races, we clearly have more gun deaths/school shootings compared to other first world nations.". And if we say elevated homicide rates across all groups you'd have a point that maybe the reason is gun related. But we don't see that at all. We only see it within one ethnic group, which would imply the issue is not one of guns.

You also didn't answer my other question. Are you saying being whiter is why the EU has less homicides than America as a whole?
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We have gun violence for all races. The homicide rate isn’t equal, but that wasn’t the argument. As to your question, I don’t know if it’s one cause. Sure, part of it could be due to people being white and less non-whites. It could also be due(or in addition) to having a less individualistic culture and governments that spend money on citizens instead of overseas wars.
 
#23,255
#23,255
LouderVol said:
Shall not be infringed upon doesnt include a "unless we really want to infringe" clause. As long as the 2A is held to a different standard than other rights, you are taking it away. As soon as you introduce additional requirements you are creating a second class of citizen by denying or limiting some rights.
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So if a gun store owner refuses to sell his products to a known nutcase or anyone who fails a background check, is the gun owner infringing on the second amendment?
 
#23,256
#23,256
NurseGoodVol said:
I just watched a man get beat to death with a traffic cone. Cars, bike chains, wood, baseball bats are all weapons I’ve seen lately that caused someone’s death. Evil picks a weapon and succeeds. Until we stop raising sociopaths or lock them up at signs they have it, it will continue.
The 2 year old cussing and kicking a cop is a lost cause if they don’t change his environment in the next 4 years. We are in a viscous cycle right now. It’s gotta break somewhere and it’s way before 18.
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No argument there. Even if guns magically disappeared overnight, we wouldn’t be getting rid of whatever’s causing people to go ballistic and kill people. The apparatus would simply change.
 
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#23,258
#23,258
Volatility said:
So if a gun store owner refuses to sell his products to a known nutcase or anyone who fails a background check, is the gun owner infringing on the second amendment?
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I believe you're conflating infringement by government (which is what the amendments are to protect) and a private citizen's freedom to do business with whomever they please.
 
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#23,259
#23,259
0nelilreb said:
Better than the laws we have in Chicago or LA ?
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Gangs are going to do gang things unfortunately.


85SugarVol said:
Let me guess - you just want to ban assault weapons?
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No. I wouldn’t be opposed to increasing the age to acquire more powerful guns (like the weapon used in Uvalde) to 21 and/or having mandatory background checks and testing if we don’t have them already.
 
#23,262
#23,262
Volatility said:
We have gun violence for all races. The homicide rate isn’t equal, but that wasn’t the argument. As to your question, I don’t know if it’s one cause. Sure, part of it could be due to people being white and less non-whites. It could also be due(or in addition) to having a less individualistic culture and governments that spend money on citizens instead of overseas wars.
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Sure. There’s violence in all races and in all countries. But you’re right that’s not the point. The point is disproportionate violence. You’re attempting to claim other countries have less violence because they have less guns.

Yet the data says the people with the most guns in the world (white Americans) have really low homicide rates. Lower than the EU and about equal to Canada.

So it’s really hard to claim guns are a problem given those obvious facts
 
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#23,263
#23,263
Volatility said:
So if a gun store owner refuses to sell his products to a known nutcase or anyone who fails a background check, is the gun owner infringing on the second amendment?
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You alright if they refuse to sell to black people? What’s the objective standard you want gun shops to use.

“I thought he may be a gang member and I did not want to be sued”
 
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#23,266
#23,266
Volatility said:
Gangs are going to do gang things unfortunately.




No. I wouldn’t be opposed to increasing the age to acquire more powerful guns (like the weapon used in Uvalde) to 21 and/or having mandatory background checks and testing if we don’t have them already.
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And are you also not opposed to increasing the voting age from 18 to 21?
 
#23,267
#23,267
hog88 said:
It is an infringement because the owner is refusing the sale because of the law.
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Well yes it would be with the failed back ground check as is.

But my experience has been most gun store owners would choose not to sell to a known nutcase, or someone with a violent background, if they knew, regardless of the law.

I am fine with a gun store owner not selling a gun gun to anyone for any reason he chooses.
 
#23,268
#23,268
LouderVol said:
Well yes it would be with the failed back ground check as is.

But my experience has been most gun store owners would choose not to sell to a known nutcase, or someone with a violent background, if they knew, regardless of the law.

I am fine with a gun store owner not selling a gun gun to anyone for any reason he chooses.
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If it could be demonstrated that you had real reason to believe someone was as you describe just the the civil suit liability would give most pause.
 
#23,269
#23,269
hndog609 said:
If it could be demonstrated that you had real reason to believe someone was as you describe just the the civil suit liability would give most pause.
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Yup. Word getting around that you sold to X gunman, knowing his issues, would doom most businesses.
 
#23,270
#23,270
LouderVol said:
Well yes it would be with the failed back ground check as is.

But my experience has been most gun store owners would choose not to sell to a known nutcase, or someone with a violent background, if they knew, regardless of the law.

I am fine with a gun store owner not selling a gun gun to anyone for any reason he chooses.
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I’m fine with any business refusing service for whatever reason they choose.
 
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#23,275
#23,275
0nelilreb said:
That’s terrible .. we need to do something about mental health programs to curb this horrific trend … SUICIDE - +63%
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I have an idea: let's tell everyone to lock themselves indoors and that they are in danger if they interact with people. Get the news stations to run daily COVID tickers and vastly exaggerate the miniscule risk it poses to the young, healthy population. Now, have all the social media platforms pump their heads full of addictive half-/mis-truths while they eat junk food, drink tons of alcohol, and take more opioids than ever.

Problem solved.
 
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