Gap Scheme question...

#51
#51
Is the gap scheme the only scheme where the o-line has to find who they need to block?

Is it possible that we are playing against Defenses that keep on disguising on what they do to confuses our o-line? I could imagine to have constant shifting and movement.

Is there another scheme that is much easier to learn? It's like we are enrolled our players into "Offensive Line 401" without having them go through the prerequisite of "Offensive Line 201".
 
#52
#52
majic73 said:
I think you hit it with #3 and #4 . I have looked at the Bearcats offense quite a bit and think it will work here when we can block it well . The biggest problem that I can see with running game is ...the passing game. The passing game is a tried and true layered West Coast passing attack with the quick hitting bubble screens being the QBs pre-snap read and option . The issue is that we need, like any other team , 2.8 seconds for the top layer routes to develop . Our inexperienced O line is not giving up that right now. With so little time , things like double moves and medium range come backs , crossing routes are impossible. So , our whole offense is played within 8 yards of the ball . Our style of running , is predicated on the success of the passing game. These defenses are playing press coverage , cover 1 and cover 0 and attacking the run gaps and line of scrimmage down hill.

When we can block the scheme , we can take the lid off , spread the field vertical and horizontal ..and we'll be able to pound the rock
Click to expand...

This should be stickied
 
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#53
#53
So, the blocking scheme that appears to be a prerequisite for success in this offense is complicated and quite cerebral? I would suspect a well coached defense would know how to add confusion to a young oline trying to learn a complicated scheme and that's what we saw vs OU and Fl? Makes me feel a little better.
 
#56
#56
I can only imagine what a defensive line shift right before the snap does to our young offensive linemen. Or, maybe, a linebacker that shifts gaps or fakes a blitz and then drops into coverage.
 
#57
#57
Does Dave Clawson use much gap blocking in his offense? I know his system is complex and takes players time to learn but once they do it's successful. Curious if there's any correlation between what Jones and Clawson do up front.
 
#58
#58
IN Jed said:
So, the blocking scheme that appears to be a prerequisite for success in this offense is complicated and quite cerebral? I would suspect a well coached defense would know how to add confusion to a young oline trying to learn a complicated scheme and that's what we saw vs OU and Fl? Makes me feel a little better.
Click to expand...

OU and Fla just flat whipped them at the point of attack. They confused them with stunts and twists but OU's tackles just bull rushed right over and around the interior lineman. Scheme will only help so much when you are getting physically whipped. Like Mike Tyson said "everybody has a plan till they get hit in the mouth"
 
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#59
#59
Grappler said:
Thanks...In my opinion Gap Schemes are easier simply because of the down blocks. A successful down block is getting to the defender, making contact and moving your feet, he's already blocked, you just have to get there. Also I coach for a spread team and for everyone you bring in to block (TE, FB, H-Back) you bring in another defender. Then this area starts to get crowded and you have to make more successful blocks at the point of attack. I like to have the least number of key blocks per play as I can get. Now we do run with two backs, a TE sometimes but it's to run play action or we have a slick QB Counter to run when they overload to stop the Power play.
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Thanks so much for the educated discussion, its a welcome change. Thanks for breaking down the scheme for the masses, cause knowledge is power!:p

I learned that from School House Rock, kids today are so deprived.
 
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#60
#60
Great thread! Very informative. Wish there were more like it on the board.....

This all leaves me with one question, though. Is it possible to run play-action in this scheme? Seems to me like faking the hand-off at this point would make an entire defense bite and leave WRs wide open.
 
#61
#61
LLcoolDave said:
pistol-horn-play-actual.png


Gap scheme in a counter play
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The illustration has this play running from a pistol set. I would like to see us move to this set.
 
#62
#62
volnation2217 said:
Niners, Patriots, Vikings, and Seahawks all use the power set which uses this blocking scheme quite a bit. About half the teams in the nfl use it pretty regularly I would say.
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Once you get in the NFL, I'd say nearly everyone is using a combination of both. The Alex Gibbs tree is one of the few exceptions which literally only runs IZ/OZ. Most college teams are better off sticking with one or the other.
 
#63
#63
Everyone who responded, thanks for the education! Would love to see more threads like these.

A question to you guys: Why wouldn't the QB fake a handoff for a pass on a quick slant. Everyone crashing the middle and DE hesitating on a possible QB run, wouldn't the slant be wide open? Don't think we've seen that once this year?
 
#64
#64
chad4930 said:
OU and Fla just flat whipped them at the point of attack. They confused them with stunts and twists but OU's tackles just bull rushed right over and around the interior lineman. Scheme will only help so much when you are getting physically whipped. Like Mike Tyson said "everybody has a plan till they get hit in the mouth"
Click to expand...

And the Georgia game is a better idea of what our offense will look like when we have an experienced, stronger offensive line. Long passes (like to Pig), and long runs from Hurd. When we get Hurd running through the line untouched it will be trouble for the other teams.

Sidenote: did Croom play against UF?
 
#65
#65
90 Vol said:
The illustration has this play running from a pistol set. I would like to see us move to this set.
Click to expand...

Agreed. Would like to see more pistol. For the experts, would this not get Hurd moving downhill a little quicker than he is currently?
 
#66
#66
Grappler said:
Thanks...In my opinion Gap Schemes are easier simply because of the down blocks. A successful down block is getting to the defender, making contact and moving your feet, he's already blocked, you just have to get there. Also I coach for a spread team and for everyone you bring in to block (TE, FB, H-Back) you bring in another defender. Then this area starts to get crowded and you have to make more successful blocks at the point of attack. I like to have the least number of key blocks per play as I can get. Now we do run with two backs, a TE sometimes but it's to run play action or we have a slick QB Counter to run when they overload to stop the Power play.
Click to expand...

When you are teaching it, do you teach the power first and then move to the counter? Do you have any insight on why others consider it difficult to teach, and master?
I apologize if i am asking elementary questions. I didnt play or coach my kids.
 
#68
#68
thomaseusin said:
Everyone who responded, thanks for the education! Would love to see more threads like these.

A question to you guys: Why wouldn't the QB fake a handoff for a pass on a quick slant. Everyone crashing the middle and DE hesitating on a possible QB run, wouldn't the slant be wide open? Don't think we've seen that once this year?
Click to expand...

We did use a concept like this against Oklahoma. Only ran it twice and never went back to it in any other game. This is a zone run, not a gap run though.

Split Slant: Vols Unveil New Packaged Concept vs Sooners | Football Concepts
 
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#69
#69
LLcoolDave said:
pistol-horn-play-actual.png


Gap scheme in a counter play
Click to expand...

The majority of counter plays have the backside guard pulling rather than the center.

Counter Trey alot of times has the backside guard and tackle pull.

Some counters will use the center to pull but sually the guard.
 
#70
#70
General Jack said:
Welcome, post more.

Is there a current or recent major college program or NFL franchise that is running the gap scheme with resounding success?
Click to expand...

SIAP but I would say 85% of teams run gap scheme runs. That's all that ever existed until the Denver Broncos started zone blocking hence the "system" that was so astonishing in Denver for all those years.

If you played high school football or even pee wee ball then you ran gap scheme run plays. Powers, Iso, Counter, Traps, Dives
 
#71
#71
majic73 said:
I think you hit it with #3 and #4 . I have looked at the Bearcats offense quite a bit and think it will work here when we can block it well . The biggest problem that I can see with running game is ...the passing game. The passing game is a tried and true layered West Coast passing attack with the quick hitting bubble screens being the QBs pre-snap read and option . The issue is that we need, like any other team , 2.8 seconds for the top layer routes to develop . Our inexperienced O line is not giving up that right now. With so little time , things like double moves and medium range come backs , crossing routes are impossible. So , our whole offense is played within 8 yards of the ball . Our style of running , is predicated on the success of the passing game. These defenses are playing press coverage , cover 1 and cover 0 and attacking the run gaps and line of scrimmage down hill.

When we can block the scheme , we can take the lid off , spread the field vertical and horizontal ..and we'll be able to pound the rock
Click to expand...

Man, I think you summarized our issues right there. As the OL continue to develop and the matchups get a bit easier (after MS & AL) maybe we'll see it open up a bit.
 
#73
#73
They aren't winning their 1 on 1 matchups consistantly....all it takes is for one person to screw it up and the play is a bust. Right now that is happening too often.
 
#74
#74
McDad said:
When you are teaching it, do you teach the power first and then move to the counter? Do you have any insight on why others consider it difficult to teach, and master?
I apologize if i am asking elementary questions. I didnt play or coach my kids.
Click to expand...

That is no problem......Yes I go Power, Trap, then Counter. The only reason for this is Power is our bread and butter play, and the wrap up the wall for the Guard is a different technique than the Trap and Counter which are both kick out blocks.
 
#75
#75
Grappler said:
That is no problem......Yes I go Power, Trap, then Counter. The only reason for this is Power is our bread and butter play, and the wrap up the wall for the Guard is a different technique than the Trap and Counter which are both kick out blocks.
Click to expand...

Are these techniques more difficult to master at the collegiate and pro levels for some reason? Facing more complex defensive strategies, more athletic individuals on defense, timing is more precise for the offense to open up holes, etc.
 
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