Game Thread: Lady Vols versus Mizzou

In the early part of the season Rae was our best freshman. Somebody/ Something messed her up, lack of minutes maybe?


Just the level of competition IMO she made several plays Sunday that would have resulted in a basket against less athletic players. She gets the oboard but then gets blocked going back up, she just isn't quite strong enough yet. She needs a summer in the weight room and she'll be great.

She has more speed and desire in her little toe than Kortney had in her whole body. Kortney didn't get much PT because she was a huge liability on defense, I don't foresee that being a problem for Rae, she's a go getter.
 
Just the level of competition IMO she made several plays Sunday that would have resulted in a basket against less athletic players. She gets the oboard but then gets blocked going back up, she just isn't quite strong enough yet. She needs a summer in the weight room and she'll be great.

She has more speed and desire in her little toe than Kortney had in her whole body. Kortney didn't get much PT because she was a huge liability on defense, I don't foresee that being a problem for Rae, she's a go getter.

I think Rae can play at this level if given the playing time. We all know how Holly coaches and you are 100% correct about Kortney on defense. If you think about all the big time recruits Holly has had i don`t know one player that has up played up to there potential. Could it be Holly or is the player that is overrated ?
 
I loved the effort on this game!

I loved doing a good on Sophie.

Good game for the LVs.
I am really noticing how confident Zay has become and how much her shooting has improved...One person who is really putting out effort is Rae...she still makes a lot errors, because she's eager to make a difference...she reminds me of Izzy in her freshman year [she too was moving 100mph and didn't know when to brake]...I'll take that effort "Izzy-effort" allday long...go LVFL 🤙✌🍊
 
Show me where a poster said the Mizzou win proves we don’t need a coaching change? Fans are supporting the team’s hard fought victory. As you know, any SEC road win is worth celebrating—especially over a team that just beat the #5 team in the nation.

Lots of **** holly says is on Twitter okkk
 
When you read the thread of a game now completed you will find considerably more "frustrating posts" on a missed opportunity than you will read great shot. (minus Gule's desire to free a bench player). the heat of the game, especially a close one. Then there are individuals on Boards who it makes them good to be negative. As we know Stanford rated in the top 10 lost to Oregon by 40 points.

question: if the LVs were coached and playing to their potential as you, the reader defined, where would you put them in the top 10?
Baylor, Oregon, Notre Dame, Louisville, UConn, Stanford, Miss State, Oregon State, South Carolina, Miami, NC State, Texas?
 
I think Rae can play at this level if given the playing time. We all know how Holly coaches and you are 100% correct about Kortney on defense. If you think about all the big time recruits Holly has had i don`t know one player that has up played up to there potential. Could it be Holly or is the player that is overrated ?
I think Evina has lived up to the hype. She is only a sophomore. By the time she is a senior...lookout!
 
I think Rae can play at this level if given the playing time. We all know how Holly coaches and you are 100% correct about Kortney on defense. If you think about all the big time recruits Holly has had i don`t know one player that has up played up to there potential. Could it be Holly or is the player that is overrated ?

I think it is fair to say that LV TEAMS have under performed during Holly's tenure (with the exception of her first two seasons).

However, the idea that LV players simply don't improve while they are in the program does not hold up so well. Meme jackson may be a little up and down this season but she is light years ahead of where she was as a freshman (she looked a lot like Rae actually, lots of hustle with very limited results and lots of mistakes).

Cheridene Green has made a massive step forward. Evina has a much better offensive game and much better defensive positioning and much better court sense (though she still needs some work on knowing when not to force a pass).
[Rennia's game has also improved but there are more subtle changes- she has a more consistent jump shot; her effort is more consistent. I actually expected her to be more of an impact player though I feel like we have not yet seen the best of her this season. I think Rennia does better when not feeling that she has to carry the team so the emergence of Zaay as a scoring threat is a definite plus for RD]

Going back - Nared and Russell both got much better from their freshman seasons (though Russell's situation was compounded by injuries).

Of course, people can say "oh but none of these players lived up to their POTENTIAL!" Well, who knows exactly what a player's potential really is? You can make some general assessments. For example Rae is considerably more athletic than Dunbar-- that is readily apparent. Given her hustle, size, and quickness, I am pretty confident she has more potential than Dunbar to be a contributor to the team in her next 3 years. Does she have the potential to be an All-american and eventually a first round pick in the WNBA? That question is a lot harder to assess.

So, if next year, Rae comes back with a more consistent jump shot and has a better court sense (so she is not caught of defensive position) while maintaining her current level of intensity, we could all agree that would have become a better player. However, if one raises the counterpoint, well, if she had not played for Holly, she would have developed into an AA player is equivalent to proclaiming that exactly 37 angels can dance in the eye of a needle. Okay, if you say so....
 
I think it is fair to say that LV TEAMS have under performed during Holly's tenure (with the exception of her first two seasons).

However, the idea that LV players simply don't improve while they are in the program does not hold up so well. Meme jackson may be a little up and down this season but she is light years ahead of where she was as a freshman (she looked a lot like Rae actually, lots of hustle with very limited results and lots of mistakes).

Cheridene Green has made a massive step forward. Evina has a much better offensive game and much better defensive positioning and much better court sense (though she still needs some work on knowing when not to force a pass).
[Rennia's game has also improved but there are more subtle changes- she has a more consistent jump shot; her effort is more consistent. I actually expected her to be more of an impact player though I feel like we have not yet seen the best of her this season. I think Rennia does better when not feeling that she has to carry the team so the emergence of Zaay as a scoring threat is a definite plus for RD]

Going back - Nared and Russell both got much better from their freshman seasons (though Russell's situation was compounded by injuries).

Of course, people can say "oh but none of these players lived up to their POTENTIAL!" Well, who knows exactly what a player's potential really is? You can make some general assessments. For example Rae is considerably more athletic than Dunbar-- that is readily apparent. Given her hustle, size, and quickness, I am pretty confident she has more potential than Dunbar to be a contributor to the team in her next 3 years. Does she have the potential to be an All-american and eventually a first round pick in the WNBA? That question is a lot harder to assess.

So, if next year, Rae comes back with a more consistent jump shot and has a better court sense (so she is not caught of defensive position) while maintaining her current level of intensity, we could all agree that would have become a better player. However, if one raises the counterpoint, well, if she had not played for Holly, she would have developed into an AA player is equivalent to proclaiming that exactly 37 angels can dance in the eye of a needle. Okay, if you say so....

You make a lot of good point and i`m glad you made the point about Meme getting then what she was as a freshmen. My only knock against Holly and to me this is what put her on the hot seat, Is she never let players try and play thru there mistakes. Other then ND and maybe Uconn the top teams are playing there young guns and letting them play thru there mistakes why because they will help them down the stretch. I think if Holly would have rolled the dice and benched players that were not playing well early on this team would be in a better position come march just my opinion . And i enjoy having good agree disagree back and forth Thank You By the ND will be in deep trouble next year all 5 starters move on.
 
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ND - Young is a junior and may or may not declare for the WNBA draft. She is eligible. If she does, dj is correct, ND loses its five starters.
 
To this twitter thing.

Who's account is it
everybody talks about it but I don't "tweet"

got enough habits

Well... that’s the thing - I don’t know. Here’s what I was responding to:

NoBackBoard said:
“Show me where a poster said the Mizzou win proves we don’t need a coaching change? Fans are supporting the team’s hard fought victory. As you know, any SEC road win is worth celebrating—especially over a team that just beat the #5 team in the nation.”

Sisaq responded:
“Lots of **** holly says is on Twitter okkk”

I thought NBB was meaning a “poster” on VolNation but maybe they meant Twitter. Regardless - Sisaq’s answer made no sense to me.

Maybe someone will clarify.
 
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I think it is fair to say that LV TEAMS have under performed during Holly's tenure (with the exception of her first two seasons).

However, the idea that LV players simply don't improve while they are in the program does not hold up so well. Meme jackson may be a little up and down this season but she is light years ahead of where she was as a freshman (she looked a lot like Rae actually, lots of hustle with very limited results and lots of mistakes).

Cheridene Green has made a massive step forward. Evina has a much better offensive game and much better defensive positioning and much better court sense (though she still needs some work on knowing when not to force a pass).
[Rennia's game has also improved but there are more subtle changes- she has a more consistent jump shot; her effort is more consistent. I actually expected her to be more of an impact player though I feel like we have not yet seen the best of her this season. I think Rennia does better when not feeling that she has to carry the team so the emergence of Zaay as a scoring threat is a definite plus for RD]
Of course, people can say "oh but none of these players lived up to their POTENTIAL!" Well, who knows exactly what a player's potential really is? You can make some general assessments. For example Rae is considerably more athletic than Dunbar-- that is readily apparent. Given her hustle, size, and quickness, I am pretty confident she has more potential than Dunbar to be a contributor to the team in her next 3 years. Does she have the potential to be an All-american and eventually a first round pick in the WNBA? That question is a lot harder to assess.

So, if next year, Rae comes back with a more consistent jump shot and has a better court sense (so she is not caught of defensive position) while maintaining her current level of intensity, we could all agree that would have become a better player. However, if one raises the counterpoint, well, if she had not played for Holly, she would have developed into an AA player is equivalent to proclaiming that exactly 37 angels can dance in the eye of a needle. Okay, if you say so....

Stipulating that "improvement" is subjective and also that you are glass half full (I envy you that) and my glass is empty and broken, I respectfully disagree. IMO the lack of significant improvement and development, both of individual players and teams, is exactly the hill that poor Holly is going to die on. Its the heart of the current problem.

Yes there are some improvements for some players over the last 4 seasons that we can find if we look hard enough. But you're right, its that potential thing. Such a long sad line of players and teams have left us with the nagging woulda, coulda, shoulda, been better feeling (Nared, Russell). Some have arguably gotten worse (Bashara Graves, Jordan Reynolds). More than anything for me its a crazy zigzagging lack of consistency that confounds.

No one embodies that more for me than the current players you cite. We often consider Evina and Rennia "young" players but they are now very nearly halfway thru their careers and have started 50+ games each. Yet we have Rennia just a few games ago looking lost, hapless and hopeless. I'm delighted with her current few games of good play, but is anyone confident she won't slide back into the abyss? And Evina is so wildly inconsistent she usually cannot even sustain a consistent quarter. Great 1st against Mizzu, followed by a second in which once again, she could not hit a layup to save her life and the second row of spectators was endangered by her ill-advised passes. I could be wrong, but it just seems recruits this highly ranked and with this much playing experience should be far more consistent.

Unfortunately, this kind of bi-polar play from elite players has become our hallmark. They're the little girl with the curl - good when their good but so bad when they're bad. Hello Diamond, who may give you 30 pts or may give you 8 turnovers and couldn't hit a bull in the butt with a base fiddle. No middle ground.

Then there's poor MeMe, who may be the poster child for what many say is a wrong-headed approach to recruiting that Holly can no more shed than she can give up the 80s approach to offense. Except for a few out-of-her-mind offensive games this year, IMO MeMe is exactly the player she has been since she was a frosh - athletic, quick, but not very skilled especially offensively. If you are going to recruit this type player, all raw athletic potential, you better be a genius at skills development. Hello Capt. Obvious, Holly is decidedly not that developmental genius.

It wouldn't be fair not to wonder if these players come in over-ranked, but there have been too many of them, the pattern is too consistent for it to be all bad assessment. That said, I have come to detest the word "talent". Is it actually talent if it is unable to provide consistent, winning SEC level play? I agree that "talent" is very often misused when we really mean "potential". Which yes is a nebulous concept, but more importantly requires honing and development.

And that, I'm afraid, is exactly the heart of the current problem. Recruiting athletic potential which is labeled as great talent which leaves here as unfulfilled potential.
 
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BTW I would cite Cher Green as a player who improved, but IMO its due to her own grit, hard work and mental toughness. I don't really think her skill set has improved much, and charitably was limited to start with. Its why I often say I think PHS would love this kid, an over achiever because of her own work ethic and mindset.

I would also say Zaay has improved the last few games and has a world of potential but can it be sustained and nurtured?
 
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