former educators,

[82_VOL_83]

Some of y'all are crazy. Been listening to too much Sean Hannity.

And what do guns have to do with communism. Are guns the hallmark of capitalism now?

No, but playing like you are shooting one is a sure way to get your kid expelled.

 

[82_VOL_83]

People who comment about teachers not working during summer break seem to forget that a teacher's salary is based on a ten month contract. That's right, teachers don't get paid for two months out of the year.

Uh, no. Teachers can choose to get paid over 12 months or the time they are in school. At least my family members could.

 

[realmenwearorange]

Uh, no. Teachers can choose to get paid over 12 months or the time they are in school. At least my family members could.

Teachers do get paid over the summer but their pay is based on a ten month contract. In Tennessee a school year is 200 days. Teachers get paid for 200 work days during the ten month school year.Yes the pay itself may be stretched out over twelve months but the salary is based on ten months. Administrators who work over the summer break do get paid on a 12 month contract. Teachers are also required to take continuing education in order to keep their license current. They typically do that over the summer and have to pay for the workshops and classes out of their own pocket.

Not all systems offer the opportunity to get pay in the summer. Mine did not until last school year. When our system went from 20 checks per year to 24 checks per year our bi weekly check decreased 16%

 

[82_VOL_83]

Teachers do get paid over the summer but their pay is based on a ten month contract. In Tennessee a school year is 200 days. Teachers get paid for 200 work days during the ten month school year.Yes the pay itself may be stretched out over twelve months but the salary is based on ten months. Administrators who work over the summer break do get paid on a 12 month contract. Teachers are also required to take continuing education in order to keep their license current. They typically do that over the summer and have to pay for the workshops and classes out of their own pocket.

Not all systems offer the opportunity to get pay in the summer. Mine did not until last school year. When our system went from 20 checks per year to 24 checks per year our bi weekly check decreased 16%

What is the difference? If my company kept my salary the same and decided to pay me in 20 checks instead of 24 would I be getting a raise?

 

[realmenwearorange]

What is the difference? If my company kept my salary the same and decided to pay me in 20 checks instead of 24 would I be getting a raise?

Whether you know it or not, teachers work over the summer months without getting paid. That's the point. I spend summer preparing for my classes the next fall, especially if I will be teaching a new subject. Like I said before, required continuing education and workshops on our time that we are not getting paid for. We leave school in the spring and are given a list of things that we are expected to have done by the time the fall semester begins. That doesn't even include all the extra stuff we are required to do during the course of the school year.

 

[82_VOL_83]

Whether you know it or not, teachers work over the summer months without getting paid. That's the point. I spend summer preparing for my classes the next fall, especially if I will be teaching a new subject. Like I said before, required continuing education and workshops on our time that we are not getting paid for. We leave school in the spring and are given a list of things that we are expected to have done by the time the fall semester begins. That doesn't even include all the extra stuff we are required to do during the course of the school year.

I have immediate family that are teachers. You didn't answer my question.

 

[RavinDave]

We still were in the cold war with Russia when I got out of College. We were Red, White, and Blue in public school, Pledge of Allegiance every morning, prayers at football games, etc. In CC I had taken enough classes in HS that I didn't have to deal with very many LA teachers and those that I did were concerned about teaching the subject rather than current event opinions. At UT I basically took Engineering and technical classes with a few LA classes. A couple of teachers that I had were flaming liberal and let everyone know it. I went to those classes just enough to pass and generally slept through them. So no, I wasn't indoctrinated nor was the attempt made. If you think it isn't happening starting in kindergarten now you are foolish.

Make sure when your kids (if you have them) go to school, they don't make guns with the fingers and play army. Or, make a gun shape out of playdoh, you will find yourself staying home for the rest of the year taking care of them.

Excellent post. My experience in school was two generations ago and a lot like how you described yours. I'm also an engineer and somewhat conservative and I have 2 kids who went to public schools, the daughter a sophomore in international studies at Georgetown who had dreams of working in a Hillary administration and the other one who will be going to Rice in the Fall maybe not so far left but still a product of these bastions of liberalism. But at least we got out of Baton Rouge before they got to be school age and into Houston where the schools at least are supposedly a lot better.

 

[realmenwearorange]

So, why isn't education more uniform throughout the country?

The reason why education is not uniform throughout the country goes back to the Constitution. The Constitution gives specific powers to the federal govt. Education is not a specific power given to the federal govt. The 10th Amendment states that any powers not given to the federal government but not denied to the states shall be reserved for the states. Therefore education is a state power. Since it is a state power its up to each individual state to set an educational policy that is best for itself.

 

[realmenwearorange]

I have immediate family that are teachers. You didn't answer my question.

No its not a raise but you are doing a year's work for a year's pay. Teachers do a year's work for ten months of pay.

 

[82_VOL_83]

No its not a raise but you are doing a year's work for a year's pay. Teachers do a year's work for ten months of pay.

So bottom line, whether you get 20 checks per year or 24 checks per year the W2 is substantially similar. You don't like the salary, change your field. You are in a union, strike. Oh wait, if you strike you don't get tenure. Do you have to personally pay for benefits over the summer?

Edit:. Maybe if you looked at it as working 10 months for 12 months pay you would feel better.

 

[realmenwearorange]

Because the Fed standard is pass the student.....period.

uh no... The federal standard is not pass the student. The feds want growth. Each student has a predicted score on standardized tests based on previous scores. Teachers are expected to have each student score at or above the student's predicted score in order to achieve growth. Even if a student passes the test but has no growth that is considered a negative for the teacher's scores.

 

[82_VOL_83]

uh no... The federal standard is not pass the student. The feds want growth. Each student has a predicted score on standardized tests based on previous scores. Teachers are expected to have each student score at or above the student's predicted score in order to achieve growth. Even if a student passes the test but has no growth that is considered a negative for the teacher's scores.

Yeah, that's why an entire 2 weeks before the tests all they do is prepare for the tests. My kids used to laugh at the TCAPs.

 

[82_VOL_83]

Look, I sympathize with you. You have a ****ty job. But let's not play the pay card. That topic has been discussed ad nauseum in the PF.

 

[realmenwearorange]

Yeah, that's why an entire 2 weeks before the tests all they do is prepare for the tests. My kids used to laugh at the TCAPs.

That's wonderful that your kids laugh at the TCAPs. Its not funny to teachers whose living depends on student performance. I've had students bubble in the entire test without even opening the test booklet to read the questions. My evaluations are based on that student's performance. They are also based on a student who misses 30 days of school, a student that performed well as an 8th grader but now he is a pothead, the student whose parents are currently going through a divorce, or the student that worked until midnight the day before the test.

 

[82_VOL_83]

That's wonderful that your kids laugh at the TCAPs. Its not funny to teachers whose living depends on student performance. I've had students bubble in the entire test without even opening the test booklet to read the questions. My evaluations are based on that student's performance. They are also based on a student who misses 30 days of school, a student that performed well as an 8th grader but now he is a pothead, the student whose parents are currently going through a divorce, or the student that worked until midnight the day before the test.

I'm sorry you misunderstood. They laughed because even the potheads could score ok on them. If you have more than one student fill in the test without opening it then I don't know what to tell you.

 

[realmenwearorange]

I'm sorry you misunderstood. They laughed because even the potheads could score ok on them. If you have more than one student fill in the test without opening it then I don't know what to tell you.

The last few years the tests have become much more rigorous than they were. All the tests now have a writing segment, even math. Students often skip that and as a teacher there is nothing I can do about it.

For the record, I am totally opposed to the amount of standardized testing that takes place in schools today. The data collected from those tests is used inappropriately and for years teachers have been asking how scores are predicted with no answer coming from the state.

 

[TJ1985]

Yeah, that's why an entire 2 weeks before the tests all they do is prepare for the tests. My kids used to laugh at the TCAPs.

Your arrogance mingled with ignorance is intolerable. You speak as if you have all of the answers but lack any actual experience, other than the fact you once used to be a student. The way you and others have spoken about teachers in this thread is pitiful. Listen, I share many of the same social concerns you and others have brought up. Public education is far from perfect. Do you think being a good teacher is easy? Do you think it's easy to sit in meeting after meeting listening to how children have been abused, neglected, and abandoned? Do you think it's easy to help those same students perform on a test when all they really care about is survival? Do you think it's easy to be a counselor, a social worker, a disciplinarian, a parental figure, and an educator? Do you think it's easy to engage a class with exciting and intriguing lessons on a daily basis? Do you think it's easy to pour your heart into your job but to know that countless external factors could end up making your scores and evaluation plummet? I could go on. Let me answer this. IT'S NOT EASY. No matter what you say.

I'm not complaining about my job. I love it. I love knowing that I can positively impact the lives of others. I love being a father figure. I'm not a teacher for the money, for the praise, for the summers, or any other crap reason you may throw out there. I became a teacher for the kids. There are many teachers out there that do a disservice to the profession. That we can agree on. However, the majority are teachers that pour their heart and soul into the job. What ticks me off is to hear people like you that speak as if they have it all figured out while belittling the profession. You're so wrapped up in yourself that you're blind. I guarantee I get more frustrated than you when I hear educators mixing politics into the classroom. It's ridiculous to hear stories about little kids getting sent home for using finger guns. I get it. I hate what's going on socially in this country. But, why don't you take a second and entertain the notion that you may not be as all knowing as you think you are. Walk a mile before you complain about the scenery.

 

[82_VOL_83]

Your arrogance mingled with ignorance is intolerable. You speak as if you have all of the answers but lack any actual experience, other than the fact you once used to be a student. The way you and others have spoken about teachers in this thread is pitiful. Listen, I share many of the same social concerns you and others have brought up. Public education is far from perfect. Do you think being a good teacher is easy? Do you think it's easy to sit in meeting after meeting listening to how children have been abused, neglected, and abandoned? Do you think it's easy to help those same students perform on a test when all they really care about is survival? Do you think it's easy to be a counselor, a social worker, a disciplinarian, a parental figure, and an educator? Do you think it's easy to engage a class with exciting and intriguing lessons on a daily basis? Do you think it's easy to pour your heart into your job but to know that countless external factors could end up making your scores and evaluation plummet? I could go on. Let me answer this. IT'S NOT EASY. No matter what you say.

I'm not complaining about my job. I love it. I love knowing that I can positively impact the lives of others. I love being a father figure. I'm not a teacher for the money, for the praise, for the summers, or any other crap reason you may throw out there. I became a teacher for the kids. There are many teachers out there that do a disservice to the profession. That we can agree on. However, the majority are teachers that pour their heart and soul into the job. What ticks me off is to hear people like you that speak as if they have it all figured out while belittling the profession. You're so wrapped up in yourself that you're blind. I guarantee I get more frustrated than you when I hear educators mixing politics into the classroom. It's ridiculous to hear stories about little kids getting sent home for using finger guns. I get it. I hate what's going on socially in this country. But, why don't you take a second and entertain the notion that you may not be as all knowing as you think you are. Walk a mile before you complain about the scenery.

Cool story bro. You were the one that brought up money. If you are such a stud, change the system. Hopefully you can because my family absolutely hates the way it works. Where pray tell was I wrong? THE SYSTEM IS BROKEN! Did I type that loud enough for you. The teachers are the victims in this as much as the kids are. I think if you read my posts, everything I have said is correct. Even the part about the feds only want to pass kids, I stand by all of it. The crap they throw in about rising test scores is a red herring. If it were as bad as you make it out to be, there would be no teachers, they would all get fired. The teachers belong to a union. They support that union whole heartedly. Get the NEA to fix it for you. Oh, you can't. Name one thing that I have said that is wrong, one thing. And don't lump me in with everyone else. Just my posts.

 

[AM64]

Then i propose we change our parental culture to increase involvement with all aspects of our kids development into citizens and adults, and quit trying to be their best friends. If the problem in making a working model is us, then we need to change for the betterment of our children.

Good luck with that. Try a first step - put the smart phones away and talk - parents to kids, to each other, etc. When you see the magnitude of that failure, then you'll start to see the dual problem of parental involvement and of kids who won't pay attention to anybody other than themselves.

Our sons attended magnet schools that required parental involvement (and not a negligible number of hours) and mandatory parent, teacher, student conferences; you can absolutely see a difference when parents want kids to go to specific schools and have to be involved. Parents absolutely have to be vested in the educational process ... but so do the students, and that requires an understanding of the world around them rather than the social networks on their phones.

 

[AM64]

Is that a national average or is that just for the schools in Knoxville? Would your voucher be based on the national average or adjusted for your area?

These are the types of questions that one needs to answer before quoting numbers about how inexpensive things are or how one is going to change the world one parent at a time.

Until the NEA is gone and schools are privatized, no changes will be seen. Vouchers are a good first step but they won't be enough. Teachers have to be examined and fired where applicable and given raises where applicable. Tenure is BS. I have close family members that are in education, one in TN and one in AL. The system benefits one of them and kills the other. Not because the "system" is different but because one is a good teacher and the other hated her kids and teaching but "that was all she could do".

You also have to get rid of the BS that comes from politicians and from the educational process itself (meaning the ivy league publish or perish BS theory of how to teach). One absolute killer is inclusiveness teaching to the middle rather than teaching to a student ability and challenging especially the best to be better.

There was no better example than a few years ago when Hamilton County was looking into overseas recruitment of "qualified" math and science teachers ... an unequivocal statement that an educational system could not sustain itself. The most amazing part being that no effort was made to address the root failure - teaching to the mindless middle rather than giving the better students a chance to excel - finding benefit in how other countries educate without even taking a backward look to see where and why ours failed since the 60s.

 

[AM64]

You've mentioned trade schools a couple of times, and I couldn't agree more. Massive shortages exist in lots of "blue collar" fields. But a machinist, welder or electrician who starts working at age 20 or 21 can be miles ahead financially and without massive investment in a college education which may or may not lead to great career opportunities. How many college grads in today's world end up working for minimum wage?

Sure, but there is also the liberal disdain for blue collars and honest work. Apparently you don't need trade schools for anyone if you've got college for everyone on the mind. Of course, there's that other problem of college for everyone driving up costs and leaving many without skills necessary to pay for the accrued educational cost.

 

[AM64]

That's the national average. It's lower in some states and higher in others. Interestingly, it's the highest in some of the areas with the worst results. There are other countries that spend much less, have much larger class sizes and have essentially the same mandate to educate all students who register -- and do much better. All of the excuses you hear are just that, IMO. The problem lies elsewhere.

And any special interest, including unions, that can basically buy politicians in exchange for votes is wrong. OTOH, I'm not comfortable with the government limiting peoples' right to have a voice. The only solution is giving parents a realistic and competitive private school option and empowering local school districts to manage the public education option.

But as I said in an earlier post, the system has been built to defend itself, first and foremost. That's what centralized bureaucracies do best. And a lot of people seem to be fine with it. So maybe it's just people like me who are irrational.

It all starts with serious campaign finance and legislative ethics reforms. Until that happens politicians will be bought by special interests. Have to fix the way legislation is written, too; one item per bill so nothing is hidden in the package, and you know precisely who voted for what. Of course, that is only worthwhile if the electorate itself can set aside the R D or whatever other biases that exist and pay attention.

 

[AM64]

That's wonderful that your kids laugh at the TCAPs. Its not funny to teachers whose living depends on student performance. I've had students bubble in the entire test without even opening the test booklet to read the questions. My evaluations are based on that student's performance. They are also based on a student who misses 30 days of school, a student that performed well as an 8th grader but now he is a pothead, the student whose parents are currently going through a divorce, or the student that worked until midnight the day before the test.

Then wouldn't you say that standardized tests to measure progress are a hoax and a meaningless measure without the thought police to go with them? You can lead a horse to water ... Tests to measure progress have no or little incentive attached to them (for the student) while tests like the SAT or ACT can have a lot riding on their outcome.

If you look around at "under performing" schools based on test scores there's generally a significant correlation to the neighborhood and societal values. Why spend more on those schools to the detriment of others when the neighborhood dynamics dictate that a kid not do well.

 

[RavinDave]

Your arrogance mingled with ignorance is intolerable. You speak as if you have all of the answers but lack any actual experience, other than the fact you once used to be a student. The way you and others have spoken about teachers in this thread is pitiful. Listen, I share many of the same social concerns you and others have brought up. Public education is far from perfect. Do you think being a good teacher is easy? Do you think it's easy to sit in meeting after meeting listening to how children have been abused, neglected, and abandoned? Do you think it's easy to help those same students perform on a test when all they really care about is survival? Do you think it's easy to be a counselor, a social worker, a disciplinarian, a parental figure, and an educator? Do you think it's easy to engage a class with exciting and intriguing lessons on a daily basis? Do you think it's easy to pour your heart into your job but to know that countless external factors could end up making your scores and evaluation plummet? I could go on. Let me answer this. IT'S NOT EASY. No matter what you say.

I'm not complaining about my job. I love it. I love knowing that I can positively impact the lives of others. I love being a father figure. I'm not a teacher for the money, for the praise, for the summers, or any other crap reason you may throw out there. I became a teacher for the kids. There are many teachers out there that do a disservice to the profession. That we can agree on. However, the majority are teachers that pour their heart and soul into the job. What ticks me off is to hear people like you that speak as if they have it all figured out while belittling the profession. You're so wrapped up in yourself that you're blind. I guarantee I get more frustrated than you when I hear educators mixing politics into the classroom. It's ridiculous to hear stories about little kids getting sent home for using finger guns. I get it. I hate what's going on socially in this country. But, why don't you take a second and entertain the notion that you may not be as all knowing as you think you are. Walk a mile before you complain about the scenery.

I think I would have liked being your student or you teaching my kids.

 

[RavinDave]

Sure, but there is also the liberal disdain for blue collars and honest work. Apparently you don't need trade schools for anyone if you've got college for everyone on the mind. Of course, there's that other problem of college for everyone driving up costs and leaving many without skills necessary to pay for the accrued educational cost.

Work ethic ain't where it's at in today's youth unfortunately. And way too much pressure to get a college education.