former educators,

#126
#126
Hacksaw said:
The same thought ran through my mind when I read the OP. I'm sure you would agree with me that there are a lot of good, honest, hard-working teachers out there who care deeply about what they do. Anyone who doubts that is not well-informed.

But it's also true that the system has been corrupted by teachers' unions and their association with the politicians who support them. We're not talking about the rank and file here, but the leadership. There is a lot of data that suggests the quality of public education has gone down over the years at the same time spending has increased.

Anyway, I didn't want to make this a big political argument. But since it has already gone that way, I just wanted you to know that there are those of us who understand where you're coming from.
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The same thought ran through my mind when I read the OP. I'm sure you would agree with me that there are a lot of good, honest, hard-working police out there who care deeply about what they do. Anyone who doubts that is not well-informed.

But it's also true that the system has been corrupted by police unions and their association with the politicians who support them. We're not just talking about the rank and file here, but the leadership. There is a lot of data that suggests the quality of policing has gone down over the years at the same time spending has increased.

Anyway, I didn't want to make this a big political argument. But since it has already gone that way, I just wanted you to know that there are those of us who understand where you're coming from.
 
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#127
#127
BloomuVol said:
Ideally, the federal government would get out of education and leave it up to the states. The closer the consumer is to the decision making, the more applicable the service ends up being. Meaning states and the parents should make the decisions best applicable for their area and needs.
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That is the ONLY way education is going to improve in this country.

We need to put trade schools back on the map. I can honestly tell you that there is a MASSIVE shortage of qualified machinists in this country. If **** hit the fan and we had to go back to making ALL of our military parts, we would never make it.
 
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#128
#128
CSVol said:
The same thought ran through my mind when I read the OP. I'm sure you would agree with me that there are a lot of good, honest, hard-working police out there who care deeply about what they do. Anyone who doubts that is not well-informed.

But it's also true that the system has been corrupted by police unions and their association with the politicians who support them. We're not just talking about the rank and file here, but the leadership. There is a lot of data that suggests the quality of policing has gone down over the years at the same time spending has increased.

Anyway, I didn't want to make this a big political argument. But since it has already gone that way, I just wanted you to know that there are those of us who understand where you're coming from.
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Police =/= Educators
 
#129
#129
82_VOL_83 said:
That is the ONLY way education is going to improve in this country.

We need to put trade schools back on the map. I can honestly tell you that there is a MASSIVE shortage of qualified machinists in this country. If **** hit the fan and we had to go back to making ALL of our military parts, we would never make it.
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You've mentioned trade schools a couple of times, and I couldn't agree more. Massive shortages exist in lots of "blue collar" fields. But a machinist, welder or electrician who starts working at age 20 or 21 can be miles ahead financially and without massive investment in a college education which may or may not lead to great career opportunities. How many college grads in today's world end up working for minimum wage?
 
#130
#130
BloomuVol said:
Ideally, the federal government would get out of education and leave it up to the states. The closer the consumer is to the decision making, the more applicable the service ends up being. Meaning states and the parents should make the decisions best applicable for their area and needs.
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This assumes that the state government (or the consumer for that matter) is competent and non-partisan enough to put together a better education plan. That is...definitely not something I would count on happening.
 
#131
#131
UTRavens said:
This assumes that the state government (or the consumer for that matter) is competent and non-partisan enough to put together a better education plan. That is...definitely not something I would count on happening.
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Just because you have doubt doesn't mean we stick with the status quo, it is an obvious and utter failure. Something needs to change, and research supports my previously stated prefered format.
 
#132
#132
82_VOL_83 said:
Is that a national average or is that just for the schools in Knoxville? Would your voucher be based on the national average or adjusted for your area?

These are the types of questions that one needs to answer before quoting numbers about how inexpensive things are or how one is going to change the world one parent at a time.

Until the NEA is gone and schools are privatized, no changes will be seen. Vouchers are a good first step but they won't be enough. Teachers have to be examined and fired where applicable and given raises where applicable. Tenure is BS. I have close family members that are in education, one in TN and one in AL. The system benefits one of them and kills the other. Not because the "system" is different but because one is a good teacher and the other hated her kids and teaching but "that was all she could do".
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That's the national average. It's lower in some states and higher in others. Interestingly, it's the highest in some of the areas with the worst results. There are other countries that spend much less, have much larger class sizes and have essentially the same mandate to educate all students who register -- and do much better. All of the excuses you hear are just that, IMO. The problem lies elsewhere.

And any special interest, including unions, that can basically buy politicians in exchange for votes is wrong. OTOH, I'm not comfortable with the government limiting peoples' right to have a voice. The only solution is giving parents a realistic and competitive private school option and empowering local school districts to manage the public education option.

But as I said in an earlier post, the system has been built to defend itself, first and foremost. That's what centralized bureaucracies do best. And a lot of people seem to be fine with it. So maybe it's just people like me who are irrational.
 
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#133
#133
UTRavens said:
This assumes that the state government (or the consumer for that matter) is competent and non-partisan enough to put together a better education plan. That is...definitely not something I would count on happening.
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That's true. There are no guarantees. But I think people in power are more accountable the closer you get to the local level. If it's your neighbor making decisions, they're going to have to face you in church on Sunday -- or at the local grocery store. Some faceless bureaucrat in Washington, D.C. doesn't feel the least bit accountable to people in Tennessee or Oregon.

And it's a lot easier to vote them out if you don't like what they're doing.
 
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#134
#134
Hacksaw said:
That's the national average. It's lower in some states and higher in others. Interestingly, it's the highest in some of the areas with the worst results. There are other countries that spend much less, have much larger class sizes and have essentially the same mandate to educate all students who register -- and do much better. All of the excuses you hear are just that, IMO. The problem lies elsewhere.

And any special interest, including unions, that can basically buy politicians in exchange for votes is wrong. OTOH, I'm not comfortable with the government limiting peoples' right to have a voice. The only solution is giving parents a realistic and competitive private school option and empowering local school districts to manage the public education option.

But as I said in an earlier post, the system has been built to defend itself, first and foremost. That's what centralized bureaucracies do best. And a lot of people seem to be fine with it. So maybe it's just people like me who are irrational.
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Pulling the best, brightest, and richest kids out of public school and not doing anything about the system will lead to disaster. A school voucher will be like an offer to buy your car from Car Max. About 10% of what it's worth. The reason for the national average question is that the amount of the voucher will be effected by the local spend. As demand for the service goes up, so will the price. As long as you are getting that money from the feds, they will dictate to the private schools. Next thing you know, you are paying 10x what a public education costs for a public education. Not to mention further regulations on fairness, equal access, etc. You have to get the feds out of your education system.
 
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#135
#135
82_VOL_83 said:
Pulling the best, brightest, and richest kids out of public school and not doing anything about the system will lead to disaster. A school voucher will be like an offer to buy your car from Car Max. About 10% of what it's worth. The reason for the national average question is that the amount of the voucher will be effected by the local spend. As demand for the service goes up, so will the price. As long as you are getting that money from the feds, they will dictate to the private schools. Next thing you know, you are paying 10x what a public education costs for a public education. Not to mention further regulations on fairness, equal access, etc. You have to get the feds out of your education system.
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I agree. So it's a matter of who is in charge. Are we as taxpayers going to assert our authority? Or are we going to acquiesce to whatever is dictated by the government? Because in theory, at least, they work for us.

So I think we should have a say. As I said, I think that's a lot more realistic if decisions are made closer to the school district level -- and not by the self-serving NEA and bureaucrats in Washington.
 
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#136
#136
I think folks are mistaken about how much the federal government controls our education system. There are certain standardized testing benchmarks, which aren't in themselves bad, but much of the decision making and funding distribution is actually at the state and local level. That's why education quality still varies so widely within and between states. You have some states where the public schools are tremendous and others where they're terrible. You have some areas where there's mandatory busing and others where there are neighborhood schools. I'm all for less government intervention, but let's be accurate about the discussion.
 
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#137
#137
Vol_Doc said:
I think folks are mistaken about how much the federal government controls our education system. There are certain standardized testing benchmarks, which aren't in themselves bad, but much of the decision making and funding distribution is actually at the state and local level. That's why education quality still varies so widely within and between states. You have some states where the public schools are tremendous and others where they're terrible. You have some areas where there's mandatory busing and others where there are neighborhood schools. I'm all for less government intervention, but let's be accurate about the discussion.
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The state puppets dance to the federal puppet masters. Make no mistake about it.
 
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#138
#138
Rudy123 said:
No reflection on Coach Priutt but these days when I think of educators I think of unqualified people who indoctrinate high school and colleges in to socialism and communism
I also think of adult teachers on high school who have sex with 15 year old students and when caught they have no remorse.
Just saying
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You think wrong and stereotypically then.
 
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#140
#140
I think I had one college history teacher (and I was a history major) and maybe 1 poli-sci teacher who had a very liberal take on things. But even with them, I really don't think anyone felt indoctrinated.
 
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#141
#141
November Blue said:
Who in here was indoctrinated into socialism and communism in elementary, hs, college, or grad school? Anyone?
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We still were in the cold war with Russia when I got out of College. We were Red, White, and Blue in public school, Pledge of Allegiance every morning, prayers at football games, etc. In CC I had taken enough classes in HS that I didn't have to deal with very many LA teachers and those that I did were concerned about teaching the subject rather than current event opinions. At UT I basically took Engineering and technical classes with a few LA classes. A couple of teachers that I had were flaming liberal and let everyone know it. I went to those classes just enough to pass and generally slept through them. So no, I wasn't indoctrinated nor was the attempt made. If you think it isn't happening starting in kindergarten now you are foolish.

Make sure when your kids (if you have them) go to school, they don't make guns with the fingers and play army. Or, make a gun shape out of playdoh, you will find yourself staying home for the rest of the year taking care of them.
 
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#142
#142
November Blue said:
I think I had one college history teacher (and I was a history major) and maybe 1 poli-sci teacher who had a very liberal take on things. But even with them, I really don't think anyone felt indoctrinated.
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If you are indoctrinated how do you know you feel indoctrinated?
 
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#143
#143
November Blue said:
Who in here was indoctrinated into socialism and communism in elementary, hs, college, or grad school? Anyone?
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Who in here actually knows what socialism and communism are? And how they differ? And how they relate to actual governments that exist today? :search:
 
#147
#147
82_VOL_83 said:
We still were in the cold war with Russia when I got out of College. We were Red, White, and Blue in public school, Pledge of Allegiance every morning, prayers at football games, etc. In CC I had taken enough classes in HS that I didn't have to deal with very many LA teachers and those that I did were concerned about teaching the subject rather than current event opinions. At UT I basically took Engineering and technical classes with a few LA classes. A couple of teachers that I had were flaming liberal and let everyone know it. I went to those classes just enough to pass and generally slept through them. So no, I wasn't indoctrinated nor was the attempt made. If you think it isn't happening starting in kindergarten now you are foolish.

Make sure when your kids (if you have them) go to school, they don't make guns with the fingers and play army. Or, make a gun shape out of playdoh, you will find yourself staying home for the rest of the year taking care of them.
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Some of y'all are crazy. Been listening to too much Sean Hannity.

And what do guns have to do with communism. Are guns the hallmark of capitalism now?
 
#148
#148
Hacksaw said:
Taxpayers have every right to question why public education costs so much and gets such poor results. I realize that those who make their living off of it don't like it, but that's too bad.

As for your wife...are you saying that she grades papers all weekend? Or does she just procrastinate until Sunday night -- and then has to hurry up and get them done? I'm happy to grade those papers for her if she'll work for me this summer while I take it off.
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People who comment about teachers not working during summer break seem to forget that a teacher's salary is based on a ten month contract. That's right, teachers don't get paid for two months out of the year.
 
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