former educators,

[BloomuVol]

I know plenty about private schools. Both my kids go to one, and my town has a higher than average density of them, between independent and parochial offerings, because the public schools are a mess (mainly due to mandated cross-town bussing for socioeconomic diversity). Has that driven down costs? Not in the slightest.

If you allow all public school parents the choice to send their kids to those schools with a voucher, it saturates the market with customers, more customers for a service causes more competition between service providers (schools), which drives down costs, its simple economics seriously. It works in every other industry, competition breeds cheaper and better products.

 

[Vol_Doc]

If you allow all public school parents the choice to send their kids to those schools with a voucher, it saturates the market with customers, more customers for a service causes more competition between service providers (schools), which drives down costs, its simple economics seriously. It works in every other industry, competition breeds cheaper and better products.

That's a very simplistic way to view the situation. Unfortunately, the reality isn't that simple.

 

[BloomuVol]

That's a very simplistic way to view the situation. Unfortunately, the reality isn't that simple.

Yes, i boiled it down because i am not an expert on the finer points of private education costs and tuition, however i have read many articles that highlight the exact process that i explained in more detail. The evidence supports my opinion, and historically the closer consumers are to the price and decisions of any service, typically the better the service becomes and cheaper. There is evidence in what some would consider a comprable market in healthcare, that when you remove the government and insurance companies from being middlemen in the pay structure, the overall satisfaction and quality of care goes up while also lowering prices. Its not so far fetched.

 

[Vol_Doc]

Yes, i boiled it down because i am not an expert on the finer points of private education costs and tuition, however i have read many articles that highlight the exact process that i explained in more detail. The evidence supports my opinion, and historically the closer consumers are to the price and decisions of any service, typically the better the service becomes and cheaper. There is evidence in what some would consider a comprable market in healthcare, that when you remove the government and insurance companies from being middlemen in the pay structure, the overall satisfaction and quality of care goes up while also lowering prices. Its not so far fetched.

Lost me on that last bit. I'm in healthcare, and the model you describe is actually a great one in which the patients basically insure themselves and are able to pocket the savings from efficient, effective care. Works well...on a small scale with good patient selection. Breaks down when you expand it to a larger scale. I'm not sure how that translates to the school voucher system you were describing, unless you're suggesting privatizing the entirety of education. That would open a whole different bag of worms. The small scale situation is pretty much what private schools are now. Of course, even in that situation, the students (or parents actually) don't control the system.

 

[82_VOL_83]

If you allow all public school parents the choice to send their kids to those schools with a voucher, it saturates the market with customers, more customers for a service causes more competition between service providers (schools), which drives down costs, its simple economics seriously. It works in every other industry, competition breeds cheaper and better products.

The college system says BS.

 

[82_VOL_83]

What were some of the specifics of what you found your children being taught that would fit under "indoctrination"? I'm curious.

In MS it was a teacher telling the kids that Bush was keeping her from making her car payment (she drove a Mercedes). In HS it was the government blew up the twin towers to constant complaining about the war on Iraq to the Civil War starting because of slavery. It didn't, it was taxation and slavery was a convenient crisis. Don't bother arguing it because I won't.

 

[RavinDave]

Can't believe this post got 5 likes. If we had a dislike button wonder how many it would get.

Gave YOU a like.

Freak - what about it? Can we get a Dislike button?

 

[RavinDave]

Not at all. Check the front page of Fox News every day for a week and tell me how many such stories you find. I thought it was coincidence, but then I really started paying attention. It's truly bizarre.

I wouldn't have guessed Fox News had more such stories than their competitors (if you consider CNN, MSNBC etc. their competitors) but you may be right... could be a hidden agenda there.

BTW it was in Louisville in the 70s where I got nicknamed RavinDave... by the Nazi-chemist who ran the plant's QC Lab at the old rubber plant where I was co-oping that year...

 

[BloomuVol]

The college system says BS.

The college system is hell due to the federal government backing all loans despite a persons prospects or ability to repay it. Im not suggesting we shut all public schools and force parents to figure it out, but there is a way to transition to a more competitive market than we currently have, as ive said before that is not my specialty so i divert to the knowledge learned from those that do study this topic and they suggest that a more open market and more parental involvement in education is a better format than we currently have.

 

[Vol_Doc]

The college system is hell due to the federal government backing all loans despite a persons prospects or ability to repay it. Im not suggesting we shut all public schools and force parents to figure it out, but there is a way to transition to a more competitive market than we currently have, as ive said before that is not my specialty so i divert to the knowledge learned from those that do study this topic and they suggest that a more open market and more parental involvement in education is a better format than we currently have.

I'll agree with you on that last bit. One of the main issues with American education is the lack of involvement of many parents. Too many simply expect the school system to do it's thing. My wife is an elementary teacher. Not surprisingly, the kids that tend to be most successful have the most involved parents, parents who are interested in what their kids are learning, how they're doing, how they're behaving. The less successful kids generally have parents that don't seem to care, don't show up for conferences, etc.

This circles back to the private school issue. Private schools are generally selective in their admissions. Most have entry criteria that exclude potentially poor performers. In addition, those who pay a premium generally have higher expectations of their kids' primary education. They're typically more involved. Many make significant sacrifices simply to provide the opportunity to attend private school. They're not all just rich snobs.

That's a big reason why the expansion of private education with a capitalistic competition model like you propose simply isn't workable. Sadly, too many parents just don't care enough.

 

[BloomuVol]

I'll agree with you on that last bit. One of the main issues with American education is the lack of involvement of many parents. Too many simply expect the school system to do it's thing. My wife is an elementary teacher. Not surprisingly, the kids that tend to be most successful have the most involved parents, parents who are interested in what their kids are learning, how they're doing, how they're behaving. The less successful kids generally have parents that don't seem to care, don't show up for conferences, etc.

This circles back to the private school issue. Private schools are generally selective in their admissions. Most have entry criteria that exclude potentially poor performers. In addition, those who pay a premium generally have higher expectations of their kids' primary education. They're typically more involved. Many make significant sacrifices simply to provide the opportunity to attend private school. They're not all just rich snobs.

That's a big reason why the expansion of private education with a capitalistic competition model like you propose simply isn't workable. Sadly, too many parents just don't care enough.

Then i propose we change our parental culture to increase involvement with all aspects of our kids development into citizens and adults, and quit trying to be their best friends. If the problem in making a working model is us, then we need to change for the betterment of our children.

 

[82_VOL_83]

Get rid of quotas.
Make public assistance a working program.
Bring back trade schools.
Bring back discipline in schools.
Get rid of the NEA.


Just some thoughts.

 

[VFL1953]

You seem kind of angry. Do I have the right to ask questions or don't I? I already said in a previous post that there are a lot of good, honest, hard-working teachers out there who care deeply about what they do. They have my respect. I'm sure Mrs. Coach_Z is one of them. I have no reason to think otherwise.

But we spend an absurd amount of money every year on public education and there seems to be no accountability when the results are lacking. The default is always that we need to spend more money. And if you question it, just look at your own reaction as an example of the hostility it evokes. How many states have approved lotteries with the promise that the revenue generated will solve education budgeting problems? And yet every election (at least where I live) there are ballot measures demanding more tax money in order to head-off some doomsday scenario.

Asking questions does not equate to an attack on teachers.

Never mind.

 

[Hacksaw]

Very few. Tuition at private schools run $15k to $20k per year. $5k won't dent it enough to make much change.

Private school tuition varies greatly depending on where you live. In Tennessee, the average is less than $9,000 per year.

As expressed earlier, a larger number of students would mean more schools and more competitive pricing. Even if the voucher didn't cover the entire cost, it would make a big enough difference that a lot more parents would consider it.

 

[Vol_Doc]

Then i propose we change our parental culture to increase involvement with all aspects of our kids development into citizens and adults, and quit trying to be their best friends. If the problem in making a working model is us, then we need to change for the betterment of our children.

On that we can again agree. Of course, altering human behavior is easier said than done. Legislating it is historically ineffective.

 

[BloomuVol]

On that we can again agree. Of course, altering human behavior is easier said than done. Legislating it is historically ineffective.

Thats why i said a cultural change, it will take a push from society( meaning other parents, friends and family) to unfortunately shame some people into being more involved, it won't be easy or quick, but to me the end result is worth it.

 

[82_VOL_83]

Private school tuition varies greatly depending on where you live. In Tennessee, the average is less than $9,000 per year.

As expressed earlier, a larger number of students would mean more schools and more competitive pricing. Even if the voucher didn't cover the entire cost, it would make a big enough difference that a lot more parents would consider it.

You don't live in Knoxville then.

 

[82_VOL_83]

Thats why i said a cultural change, it will take a push from society( meaning other parents, friends and family) to unfortunately shame some people into being more involved, it won't be easy or quick, but to me the end result is worth it.

Not sure what planet you live on.

 

[BloomuVol]

Not sure what planet you live on.

Can i change all the people in the world? No, but if enough of us try we can effect the people around us, and trying is all that I as an individual citizen can do. Sorry if trying to better my childrens stake is not a good enough venture to you.

 

[Hacksaw]

You don't live in Knoxville then.

No, I don't. But there's this cool thing called the internet...

Knoxville, TN Private Schools | PrivateSchoolReview.com

Here's one of the PK-12 schools on the list that I just picked at random...

Tuition and Fees – Knoxville Christian School

 

[iluvsmesumdooley]

The problem, IMO, has nothing to do with the way teachers are portrayed in the media. For the most part, they are lauded -- and deservedly so for most of them, I'm sure.

The problem is that we spend over $10,000 per student every year, on average, and consistently rank lower than other developed countries in quality of education. And a lot of the reasons/excuses given for why have been discredited. It's no wonder that most parents who can afford the tuition opt to send their kids to private schools that have to compete with each other to offer a higher quality of education.

Imagine if the government, instead of allocating the $10k+ every year, gave parents the option of taking half of that amount to be applied towards home-schooling or private school tuition. How many parents would jump at the chance? Especially lower income parents, whose kids are more likely to be in schools that have the lowest results?

Unfortunately, we'll probably never find out. There's one thing no one can deny that the system we have now is good at -- and that's protecting itself.

$10,000 per student? Where did you get those figures at? Brentwood? LOL!

 

[Hacksaw]

$10,000 per student? Where did you get those figures at? Brentwood? LOL!

The Census Bureau compiles them. I haven't actually looked at it in the past few years, so I didn't realize they updated the number in 2015. It's up to over $11,000 per student now. It's probably actually more, since that data is a couple of years old. But I do think it's the most recent accounting.

 

[82_VOL_83]

No, I don't. But there's this cool thing called the internet...

Knoxville, TN Private Schools | PrivateSchoolReview.com

Here's one of the PK-12 schools on the list that I just picked at random...

Tuition and Fees – Knoxville Christian School

My mistake, we were looking at sending 2 kids not just one and the price for middle was going to run us near 16k - 17k per year (financing). If we could have gotten a 5k voucher off of a 10k spend, we most likely would have done that. But, you won't get 5k, most likely would get 1.5k to 2k. That would have made private impossible for us still.

Edit: Additionally, you have to sit in interviews and lie for the most part to get your kids into somewhere like Knoxville Christian or Grace. I know because we told half truths to get our kids into Maryville Christian just for Elementary because of where they would have been zoned when we first moved back. Look at the tuition costs for somewhere like Webb. I don't disagree you can find low tuition prices, but they aren't all that low and having to lie to get your kids in is required for some of them.

 

[82_VOL_83]

The Census Bureau compiles them. I haven't actually looked at it in the past few years, so I didn't realize they updated the number in 2015. It's up to over $11,000 per student now. It's probably actually more, since that data is a couple of years old. But I do think it's the most recent accounting.

Is that a national average or is that just for the schools in Knoxville? Would your voucher be based on the national average or adjusted for your area?

These are the types of questions that one needs to answer before quoting numbers about how inexpensive things are or how one is going to change the world one parent at a time.

Until the NEA is gone and schools are privatized, no changes will be seen. Vouchers are a good first step but they won't be enough. Teachers have to be examined and fired where applicable and given raises where applicable. Tenure is BS. I have close family members that are in education, one in TN and one in AL. The system benefits one of them and kills the other. Not because the "system" is different but because one is a good teacher and the other hated her kids and teaching but "that was all she could do".

 

[BloomuVol]

Is that a national average or is that just for the schools in Knoxville? Would your voucher be based on the national average or adjusted for your area?

These are the types of questions that one needs to answer before quoting numbers about how inexpensive things are or how one is going to change the world one parent at a time.

Until the NEA is gone and schools are privatized, no changes will be seen. Vouchers are a good first step but they won't be enough. Teachers have to be examined and fired where applicable and given raises where applicable. Tenure is BS. I have close family members that are in education, one in TN and one in AL. The system benefits one of them and kills the other. Not because the "system" is different but because one is a good teacher and the other hated her kids and teaching but "that was all she could do".

Ideally, the federal government would get out of education and leave it up to the states. The closer the consumer is to the decision making, the more applicable the service ends up being. Meaning states and the parents should make the decisions best applicable for their area and needs.