Football isn’t happening...

[CA_Vol]

Me too. Everyone has an opinion and is welcome to it. The thing that gets on my nerves though are the absolutes posting as if they have inside knowledge. NO ONE knows right now and college football fans want to still have some hope so when someone says "Football isn't happening" it's going to generate backlash whether right or wrong.

Fair point. I’m just disappointed and tired of this situation.

 

[MinisterofDef#92]

Your Tennessee carry permit is not valid in "many states" already. It is not illegal in Tennessee to wear a mask if you have a carry permit so your second amendment rights have not been violated by wearing a mask. Plus a private business can forbid you from carrying in their business. The question that I asked...What freedom granted by the U.S. Constitution has been limited by requiring you to wear a mask in a private business? A private business being private can most definitely require a mask be worn to enter, just as they can require shirts and shoes, or say you cannot carry in their establishment because your rights do not take precedent over their rights.

Although I would love to debate you I am just going to end this conversation right now. The Supreme Court has already ruled on if this issue is constitutional or not in Jacobson v. Massachusetts, 197 U.S. 11 (1905). Not only have they ruled on it, it was reaffirmed later by the Supreme Court in Zucht v. King, 260 U.S. 174 (1922) , and it has been cited multiple times by the Supreme Court in other rulings. It is quite frankly the "law of the land". The Court held that "in every well ordered society charged with the duty of conserving the safety of its members the rights of the individual in respect of his liberty may at times, under the pressure of great dangers, be subjected to such restraint, to be enforced by reasonable regulations, as the safety of the general public may demand".

I say all this as a life long Republican. I just think it is better for our citizens to be informed before it costs a lot of your time and money challenging things that you seem to be ill informed on. Go Vols!

I am no lawyer but it does seem one could could argue that it is not reasonable to mandate masks given, to date, there is no peer-reviewed study which definitively shows masks are effective at reducing the transmission (in fact, it is the opposite from the studies I have read), multiple health experts have gone on the record stating masks do not work, and the fact that most of the masks in use are merely cloth (single layer cloth stops ~7% of particles > 0.30 microns when Covid-19 measures from 0.06-0.14).

Lastly, studies have shown masks can lead to other health issues for certain people and it seems this is the point where a business could get in trouble if they refuse service to a customer who actually has a qualifying underlying condition...this could be a real dilemma for business owners as they have no way of knowing who does or does not have a valid claim to service under ADA.

 

[NashLawVol]

I am no lawyer but it does seem one could could argue that it is not reasonable to mandate masks given, to date, there is no peer-reviewed study which definitively shows masks are effective at reducing the transmission (in fact, it is the opposite from the studies I have read), multiple health experts have gone on the record stating masks do not work, and the fact that most of the masks in use are merely cloth (single layer cloth stops ~7% of particles > 0.30 microns when Covid-19 measures from 0.06-0.14).

Lastly, studies have shown masks can lead to other health issues for certain people and it seems this is the point where a business could get in trouble if they refuse service to a customer who actually has a qualifying underlying condition...this could be a real dilemma for business owners as they have no way of knowing who does or does not have a valid claim to service under ADA.

Very good rebuttal #92. Yes I suspect "reasonable" will be the basis for any legal challenge to any mask mandates but I suspect any challenge would fail on that basis because of the precedent Jacobson v Mass. set. For background Jacobson v Mass. involved a pastor who refused to be vaccinated for small pox. He was fined $5.00. He appealed all the way to the Supreme Court and the Court noted that he offered proof that some in the medical community believed the vaccination would not stop the spread of disease and may also cause other diseases. (Sound familiar?). The Court found that it was up to the legislature and not the courts to decide which method is most effective to prevent the spread of diseases. This is where the "reasonable" argument will fail in my opinion because if the government body has determined mask wearing is an effective and reasonable way to prevent the spread of covid-19, the Court has already ruled it is within their power to do so. A petitioner would have to show that wearing a mask is "cruel and inhumane" and then the court could interfere to prevent "wrong and oppression". That would be a high bar to reach.

Regarding your point on if a business could get in trouble for refusing service there was actually a very good article about that in the National Law Review I read today.

No Mask, No Service? ADA Considerations for Business Owners Requiring Face Masks in Retail Stores

 

[Bert Rechichar]

Anti-maskers are the stupidest people God ever breathed life in to, and that’s being generous. Flat earth era, moon landing hoaxers, Area 51 nards are all Einsteinian compared to their logic.

 

[sjt18]

I'm sure you're convinced of that but you are all by yourself in this belief.

Well, no, I'm not. Just because flat earthers burned others at the stake for the heresy of saying the world was round... didn't make them wrong. There were voices that said that surface transmission wasn't happening. Those voices were drowned out too... until the numbers PROVED that surface transmission rarely occurs if ever. The "experts" that make up the "everybody" you're referencing once said that lots of children were going to die. They once said that 2.2 million Americans would die from it THIS YEAR and that NO ONE had any level of immunity.

So just because reasonable voices are shouted down... doesn't make them wrong. The key to transmission is viral load. Start thinking in those terms and you'll see how absurd some of this stuff we're being asked to do really is... and which things just make good sense.

 

[BenGrimm]

Many states say your permit to carry is invalid if your face is obstructed. My 2nd amendment rights are violated. This is likely the REAL reason behind mask mandates.

Care to tell us which states those are?

I’ll wait.

 

[sjt18]

I don’t have tangible evidence you’re right, but why in your opinion do wal mart target CVS Sams Starbucks Best Buy, most school systems, etc now require masks if it hasn’t proven effective?

Did you think about that question before you asked it? I'll answer it if you really think about it and cannot come up with the answer. Hint: It has nothing to do with science or proof.

Do wearing masks help their business? No, probably hurting it.

Hurt it more than being accused of not"caring" about public health? Woops. I gave you the answer.

My buddy is in the army Ft Drum New York and said they have to wear a mask anytime they are in public in NY, as well as communicating with one another at the base, and New York had zero deaths from the virus recently.

Does he have a study or has the army pointed to one? The fact that people are doing something does not constitute proof that it is the right thing to do. In fact... when you see this level of group think is when you should insist on proof the most. How many false things have we been told since this started? You could even argue that some of those things were well intended... they just didn't happen to be true.

As far as the "zero deaths".... almost every person on that post is under 50 and in great physical health. That demographic isn't dying in large numbers anywhere.

I Don’t like it. I don’t want to wear a mask. They make me feel claustrophobic and nauseous. But I don’t have a choice, I’m a teacher and we have to.

I sympathize with your predicament and cannot tell you what to do. Except I'll give a link below that if your school would invest in... would actually PROTECT you and your kids.

But the masks are ridiculous and people are being convinced on the claim of "common sense". But if you think in terms of "viral load" being the key to spread... masks in every situation by largely healthy people DEFIES common sense.

 

[johnsonbrewer]

All over the country, this is the way it works. People won't obey evil, communist laws. Free market businesses don't want to lose customers because of socialist policies. As Trump said a few days ago, it was Biden and Obama who stopped the testing. You can thank them for all of our problems. Having unscientific restrictions for no other purpose than to limit our freedoms will never stand. I for one am willing to be arrested. I love my country. It is a tragedy so few of you do as well.

 

[VolInNW]

Very good rebuttal #92. Yes I suspect "reasonable" will be the basis for any legal challenge to any mask mandates but I suspect any challenge would fail on that basis because of the precedent Jacobson v Mass. set. For background Jacobson v Mass. involved a pastor who refused to be vaccinated for small pox. He was fined $5.00. He appealed all the way to the Supreme Court and the Court noted that he offered proof that some in the medical community believed the vaccination would not stop the spread of disease and may also cause other diseases. (Sound familiar?). The Court found that it was up to the legislature and not the courts to decide which method is most effective to prevent the spread of diseases. This is where the "reasonable" argument will fail in my opinion because if the government body has determined mask wearing is an effective and reasonable way to prevent the spread of covid-19, the Court has already ruled it is within their power to do so. A petitioner would have to show that wearing a mask is "cruel and inhumane" and then the court could interfere to prevent "wrong and oppression". That would be a high bar to reach.

Regarding your point on if a business could get in trouble for refusing service there was actually a very good article about that in the National Law Review I read today.

No Mask, No Service? ADA Considerations for Business Owners Requiring Face Masks in Retail Stores

NashLaw, I concur, and would add that you've essentially laid out a rational review test, which the G always wins, unless the statute/ordinance/order is utterly ridiculous.

Here, the government has a legitimate interest in protecting the health of the populace, and there is certainly enough medical and scientific data to support the notion that requiring masks in commerce is rationally related to this legitimate interest.

Before anyone loses their shizzle, there is certainly data out there which holds mask usage as ineffective. That isn't the issue. There is no fundamental right being infringed, so rational basis review applies.

 

[Delmar]

Ok. I'm making the Troll call here. Recently joined. Post is a series of buzzwords, catchphrases, and talking points with no real cohesion. And it's solid hyperbole.

That's bait.

Yep. Said that yesterday. This goof is just trolling and has hit the Ignore list.

 

[Boone&Crockett]

Are the mask mandates not a form of big brother? Are they not enforcing a policy on us whether we agree with it or not? What do the businesses gain from these policies? Is it purely protection based for their employees or is it based more towards protecting the population? If its population based why do the feel they need to be the ones protecting the public? Are we so stupid that we need the Dollar Store to show us the way? those are the things that go thru my mind, what is the real reason behind it? I dont think its perfectly clear and thats why people feel their rights are being infringed on, conspiracy theories or not it does feel in some ways that our rights and or our willingness to protect and fight for those rights is being tested daily.

 

[ABINGDON VOL FAN]

Did you think about that question before you asked it? I'll answer it if you really think about it and cannot come up with the answer. Hint: It has nothing to do with science or proof.

Hurt it more than being accused of not"caring" about public health? Woops. I gave you the answer.

Does he have a study or has the army pointed to one? The fact that people are doing something does not constitute proof that it is the right thing to do. In fact... when you see this level of group think is when you should insist on proof the most. How many false things have we been told since this started? You could even argue that some of those things were well intended... they just didn't happen to be true.

As far as the "zero deaths".... almost every person on that post is under 50 and in great physical health. That demographic isn't dying in large numbers anywhere.


I sympathize with your predicament and cannot tell you what to do. Except I'll give a link below that if your school would invest in... would actually PROTECT you and your kids.

But the masks are ridiculous and people are being convinced on the claim of "common sense". But if you think in terms of "viral load" being the key to spread... masks in every situation by largely healthy people DEFIES common sense.

How do you know you are healthy? How do you know that you do not have it right now and are contagious to others. I’m not sure about myself. I wear masks in order to not give it to someone else and do my part in the fight against COVID. To a lesser degree the mask may help me from catching it from someone else. It’s the selfless thing to do. To stubbornly refuse to wear a mask demonstrates selfishness and no concern for other’s well-being.

 

[vol66]

It really seems to boil down to this...

Every person/family for themselves OR We are all in this together?

The good news is we all have a choice, for which our collective conscience will be held accountable.

Personally, as a person who has read much on the Flu of 1918...we shouldn’t be in the position we currently find ourselves.

 

[ABINGDON VOL FAN]

Are the mask mandates not a form of big brother? Are they not enforcing a policy on us whether we agree with it or not? What do the businesses gain from these policies? Is it purely protection based for their employees or is it based more towards protecting the population? If its population based why do the feel they need to be the ones protecting the public? Are we so stupid that we need the Dollar Store to show us the way? those are the things that go thru my mind, what is the real reason behind it? I dont think its perfectly clear and thats why people feel their rights are being infringed on, conspiracy theories or not it does feel in some ways that our rights and or our willingness to protect and fight for those rights is being tested daily.

in this case I’m not concerned about wearing masks and Big Brother comparisons. I want the country to reverse the current COVID trend. To answer the question about the country being stupid enough to have a retailer show us the way. I would put about 25% of the country in that category.

 

[BenGrimm]

Lets be clear. Your mask gives YOU a minimal amount of protection. Not enough to warrant a mandate based on that alone.

However, If you are asymptotic your mask protects ME and vice versa. If you cough or sneeze on your mask than your droplets are captured and thus not infecting those around you. This is actually why surgeons, dentists, etc wear mask. To protect you from them. That is why mask help slow the spread. There is plenty of research on this in communities with mask mandates showing reduction of new COVID cases within 5 days of the mandates going into effect.

Here is a link with more links to full studies.
Still Confused About Masks? Here’s the Science Behind How Face Masks Prevent Coronavirus

Bottom line, if you want things to get back to normal, you want the economy to recover, sports to be played? Then you need to do your part in helping slow the spread. A piece of cloth on your face is not going to hurt anything but your feelings.

 

[Boone&Crockett]

Lets be clear. Your mask gives YOU a minimal amount of protection. Not enough to warrant a mandate based on that alone.

However, If you are asymptotic your mask protects ME and vice versa. If you cough or sneeze on your mask than your droplets are captured and thus not infecting those around you. This is actually why surgeons, dentists, etc wear mask. To protect you from them. That is why mask help slow the spread. There is plenty of research on this in communities with mask mandates showing reduction of new COVID cases within 5 days of the mandates going into effect.

Here is a link with more links to full studies.
Still Confused About Masks? Here’s the Science Behind How Face Masks Prevent Coronavirus

Bottom line, if you want things to get back to normal, you want the economy to recover, sports to be played? Then you need to do your part in helping slow the spread. A piece of cloth on your face is not going to hurt anything but your feelings.

Why is the state of Tennessee not mandating masks be worn but we are being mandated by Walmart instead? If the Govt. does not feel it is a necessity why should we be required by a store? and again who is it really being aimed at by the stores to protect? the population or is it to protect the employees? honestly i could go along with it more if it were stated it was to protect the employees but I dont think that is their angle, if so just mandate all employees wear them which i think they already are.

 

[BogeyVol]

The Court found that it was up to the legislature and not the courts to decide which method is most effective

Here is where I think this falls short. The legislature is not the one mandating. It is the governors at this point.

For the record, I'm on the fence as to whether masks do any good or not. Way to much contradictory studies both ways.

So basically I wear one when required by the store or establishment, and don't when it isn't.

 

[VOLFAN_MTSUALUM]

While yall are debating mask mandates. Try figuring out seat belt laws and helmet laws. It's one of the same type argument.

 

[VolGee4]

While yall are debating mask mandates. Try figuring out seat belt laws and helmet laws. It's one of the same type argument.

Those can be differentiated. A mask can protect someone else, not just you- the wearer. Seat belts and helmets just protect the driver or rider of the vehicle.

 

[VolGee4]

Political pressure can be a reason, altho I dont think the onus is being put on Mayors, the Georgia Governor just sued the Atlanta Mayor for putting a mask mandate in place against his orders. I think letting stores we use make public policy is a bad idea, there could be ramifications to that beyond Covid, conspiracy theory or not.

Stores are private businesses and can legally make that decision. They can require things like that on private property.

But their decisions can be felt in decreased revenue if the public decides it went too far. So, that’s the important consequence. Personally I enjoy Costco too much to complain about a mask.

 

[VolAllen]

I’m just going to start stealing whatever I want from Target. They won’t know who I am with that mask on...

 

[Boone&Crockett]

The GA Gov is an idiot. Plain and simple. He has bungled GA’s response to this from the very beginning. He was unaware asymptomatic people could transmit COVID after it was well documented for almost two months. WITH THE CDC BASED IN ATL!! His admin has even been caught manipulating data to give a false impression of cases falling when they weren’t.

Idk, there is such a battle among Republican and Democrat officials right now it is hard to know what to believe on any topic, there are stories of number tampering from all sides, I just hope its over soon I miss normalcy.

 

[VolGee4]

Political pressure can be a reason, altho I dont think the onus is being put on Mayors, the Georgia Governor just sued the Atlanta Mayor for putting a mask mandate in place against his orders. I think letting stores we use make public policy is a bad idea, there could be ramifications to that beyond Covid, conspiracy theory or not.

Double post.

 

[VolGee4]

Very good rebuttal #92. Yes I suspect "reasonable" will be the basis for any legal challenge to any mask mandates but I suspect any challenge would fail on that basis because of the precedent Jacobson v Mass. set. For background Jacobson v Mass. involved a pastor who refused to be vaccinated for small pox. He was fined $5.00. He appealed all the way to the Supreme Court and the Court noted that he offered proof that some in the medical community believed the vaccination would not stop the spread of disease and may also cause other diseases. (Sound familiar?). The Court found that it was up to the legislature and not the courts to decide which method is most effective to prevent the spread of diseases. This is where the "reasonable" argument will fail in my opinion because if the government body has determined mask wearing is an effective and reasonable way to prevent the spread of covid-19, the Court has already ruled it is within their power to do so. A petitioner would have to show that wearing a mask is "cruel and inhumane" and then the court could interfere to prevent "wrong and oppression". That would be a high bar to reach.

Regarding your point on if a business could get in trouble for refusing service there was actually a very good article about that in the National Law Review I read today.

No Mask, No Service? ADA Considerations for Business Owners Requiring Face Masks in Retail Stores

And the TN Supreme Court has mandated masks in all state court buildings across the entire state. That already tells you what they think about the issue.

 

[Johnnyreb#VFL]

Did you think about that question before you asked it? I'll answer it if you really think about it and cannot come up with the answer. Hint: It has nothing to do with science or proof.

Hurt it more than being accused of not"caring" about public health? Woops. I gave you the answer.

Does he have a study or has the army pointed to one? The fact that people are doing something does not constitute proof that it is the right thing to do. In fact... when you see this level of group think is when you should insist on proof the most. How many false things have we been told since this started? You could even argue that some of those things were well intended... they just didn't happen to be true.

As far as the "zero deaths".... almost every person on that post is under 50 and in great physical health. That demographic isn't dying in large numbers anywhere.


I sympathize with your predicament and cannot tell you what to do. Except I'll give a link below that if your school would invest in... would actually PROTECT you and your kids.

But the masks are ridiculous and people are being convinced on the claim of "common sense". But if you think in terms of "viral load" being the key to spread... masks in every situation by largely healthy people DEFIES common sense.

The whole state of New York had zero deaths, not just the army base.
When you sneeze in public, do you sneeze into your arm? Doesn’t sneezing into your arm reduce the amount of germs spread into the air? So wouldn’t an extra layer of cloth on your face while sneezing into your arm reduce the amount of germs spread even more?