Folks wanting Butch's head

[MikeVol44]

Overall, I like Butch, but its hard to get a complete picture of how successful he will or will not be based just on what we are seeing.

This is exactly how I feel...I like him, but bone-headed in-game decisions have cost us 2 wins this year.....He does need time to grow up in the SEC...he's never competed in anything at this level....

I'm willing to give him the time because I like him and WANT him to succeed....8-4 with strong bowl win....helps him KEEP selling championship promises to recruits......

Next year--he really needs to win the EAST......

However--the bigger picture is that he really needs to bring the program to the point where NO ONE would dare think or publicly say what McElwain did after this year's game.....

"You just don't lose to Tennessee..."

The reason they think that is because we always get out-coached in the big games....

GO VOLS! :salute:

 

[sameolvol]

Overall, I like Butch, but its hard to get a complete picture of how successful he will or will not be based just on what we are seeing.

This is exactly how I feel...I like him, but bone-headed in-game decisions have cost us 2 wins this year.....He does need time to grow up in the SEC...he's never competed in anything at this level....

I'm willing to give him the time because I like him and WANT him to succeed....8-4 with strong bowl win....helps him KEEP selling championship promises to recruits......

Next year--he really needs to win the EAST......

However--the bigger picture is that he really needs to bring the program to the point where NO ONE would dare think or publicly say what McElwain did after this year's game.....

"You just don't lose to Tennessee..."

The reason they think that is because we always get out-coached in the big games....

GO VOLS! :salute:

You kinda' make some good points here, Mike, but let's think about a couple of things. By McElwain's own admittance, it was pure luck (4th & 14 miracle) that they won that game, and it was also by his own recognition that our guys solidly outplayed his guys...better than anybody else since that game. Ask Les Miles if he'd like to play the gators again this year. I wasn't any sort of big-time football player (pee wee league then 7th through 12th grade than a whopper knee injury trying out for the Vols' freshman squad in '69 that ended my fruitless aspirations), but that and keeping up with the game allows me to provide an educated guess that this team is growing both mentally and physically at a rate that's impossible to ignore. Programs such as this one, having been stripped down to zilch, have to replace the cerebral nuts and bolts required to do the right things throughout 4 quarters so that their adjustments and attitudes come out in sync. It'll take 4 years for the culture these coaches are building to lead to championships. Let's be patient and let the coaches do what they do so well. Believe me, Butch and his staff aren't in any kind of hot water.

 

[MikeVol44]

By McElwain's own admittance, it was pure luck (4th & 14 miracle) that they won that game, and it was also by his own recognition that our guys solidly outplayed his guys...

And--he still said that "You just don't lose to Tennessee." Remember--he ain't no rookie to the SEC...OC at Bammer for at least 1 NC.....and he knows what it is to coach against us....

I believe that what he meant by making this statement is that --even at Fla's worst--they expect to WIN against Tennessee....even at Bammer's worse--Saban's first year--THEY BEAT US!

And--that is the BIGGER PICTURE point I was making...it had nothing to do with thinking that CBJ and crew are in hot water...they aren't, and should not be---YET. Nevertheless, no one in the SEC believes that UT's staff will out-coach them in a close game--NO ONE...

And they're JUSTIFIED for believing that.....

And that is why I made my last post----I LIKE CBJ....I WANT CBJ and crew to succeed in the SEC.....BUT--I'm not convinced that they are good enough to do that just yet.....

IF they get it squared away and finish at 8-4 regular season and BEAT a top-notch Big 10 opponent in a bowl game (like, say--MICHIGAN)...I MIGHT start believing in this staff's ability to coach at an elite level....

Ask Les Miles if he'd like to play the gators again this year.

Let Miles ain't afraid of anyone--and he shouldn't be with his history of big game wins and a NC under his belt--and with Fournette in his backfield....

If you're trying to make a point here--I think you miserably failed because WE don't want to line up again and face the Gators....THEY are playing much better than they did against us when we LOST the first time...

No hostilities meant in my reply to you--BUT--just in case you haven't been paying attention--the PLAYERS' MINDSETS are NOT the problem...I mean---have you watched the games?

It's not a lack of effort or a defeatist attitude that LOST us the games against OK and Fla--it was pathetic coaching...in the 3rd and 4th QTRS that cost us those games...They're the ones who need to GROW UP and organize their nuts and bolts and figure out how to finish this season at 9-4......GO VOLS!

 

[GoVols64]

You kinda' make some good points here, Mike, but let's think about a couple of things. By McElwain's own admittance, it was pure luck (4th & 14 miracle) that they won that game, and it was also by his own recognition that our guys solidly outplayed his guys...better than anybody else since that game. Ask Les Miles if he'd like to play the gators again this year. I wasn't any sort of big-time football player (pee wee league then 7th through 12th grade than a whopper knee injury trying out for the Vols' freshman squad in '69 that ended my fruitless aspirations), but that and keeping up with the game allows me to provide an educated guess that this team is growing both mentally and physically at a rate that's impossible to ignore. Programs such as this one, having been stripped down to zilch, have to replace the cerebral nuts and bolts required to do the right things throughout 4 quarters so that their adjustments and attitudes come out in sync. It'll take 4 years for the culture these coaches are building to lead to championships. Let's be patient and let the coaches do what they do so well. Believe me, Butch and his staff aren't in any kind of hot water.

Love this post and agree completely. I had said in a few other posts that our expectations were to high for this year and next year would be a better litmus test for our growth as a program.

I actually think I was wrong and we could have taken the East this year but that's life. We have a growing sense of confidence and are still learning to win. I think the coaches and players are all growing and next year.... I have high hopes.

It's time to stop letting the strangers off of Rocky Top! Go Vols!

 

[Wylo]

WYLO, when you finally become a sunshine pumper, I want you as a teammate. You never quit and will fight till you die.

I'm working on it. Every time I try to get out they pull me back in. You don't know the power of the dark side..

 

[1974Vol]

Oklahoma, Florida and Bama games are over. Nothing Butch or team can do about that now. What they can do is win out and do so decisively!! Hang 50 on USCe and play lock down D. Then on to NT!

 

[GreyWolf1129]

should vanish until next season after the first loss. They are just embarrassing themselves. It's an easy win out. The record will be 8-4 with a nice bowl. Possible 9 win season. Next year 10+ win season. It's nice to have Tennessee back.epper:

"this has been Tennessee football for the last 10 years and the end is not in sight"

That was you on October 24th. New hairdo?

Go Vols.

 

[montanatenn]

I'm working on it. Every time I try to get out they pull me back in. You don't know the power of the dark side..

I've seen it take a lot of good men down. Make a break for it if you still can. hahaha

 

[rocketskates]

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Let him coach out his contract then make the decision. Even if he turns out not to be "the one" he will obviously leave the job as a much more attractive hire than when he found it.

All that being said, I absolutely want/expect CBJ to succeed.

 

[bigorange247]

You mean the undefeated top 20 Toledo Rockets?

They wouldn't be undefeated if arky would have beaten them, though, right?

 

[top5vols]

We beat Kentucky and turning out to be a bad Georgia team

Let's pump the breaks on the "we are back"

We aren't back until we beat Bama, Florida, and Georgia on a consistent basis

Beating Kentucky shouldn't be a precursor to greater things

It's coming. Be patient.

 

[WesternKyVol]

I'm working on it. Every time I try to get out they pull me back in. You don't know the power of the dark side..

It is of no concern. Soon the Sunshine Pumping Rebellion will be crushed and all of Volnation will be one of us. Your work here is finished, my friend. Go out to the command ship and await my orders.

 

[sameolvol]

By McElwain's own admittance, it was pure luck (4th & 14 miracle) that they won that game, and it was also by his own recognition that our guys solidly outplayed his guys...

And--he still said that "You just don't lose to Tennessee." Remember--he ain't no rookie to the SEC...OC at Bammer for at least 1 NC.....and he knows what it is to coach against us....

I believe that what he meant by making this statement is that --even at Fla's worst--they expect to WIN against Tennessee....even at Bammer's worse--Saban's first year--THEY BEAT US!

And--that is the BIGGER PICTURE point I was making...it had nothing to do with thinking that CBJ and crew are in hot water...they aren't, and should not be---YET. Nevertheless, no one in the SEC believes that UT's staff will out-coach them in a close game--NO ONE...

And they're JUSTIFIED for believing that.....

And that is why I made my last post----I LIKE CBJ....I WANT CBJ and crew to succeed in the SEC.....BUT--I'm not convinced that they are good enough to do that just yet.....

IF they get it squared away and finish at 8-4 regular season and BEAT a top-notch Big 10 opponent in a bowl game (like, say--MICHIGAN)...I MIGHT start believing in this staff's ability to coach at an elite level....

Ask Les Miles if he'd like to play the gators again this year.

Let Miles ain't afraid of anyone--and he shouldn't be with his history of big game wins and a NC under his belt--and with Fournette in his backfield....

If you're trying to make a point here--I think you miserably failed because WE don't want to line up again and face the Gators....THEY are playing much better than they did against us when we LOST the first time...

No hostilities meant in my reply to you--BUT--just in case you haven't been paying attention--the PLAYERS' MINDSETS are NOT the problem...I mean---have you watched the games?

It's not a lack of effort or a defeatist attitude that LOST us the games against OK and Fla--it was pathetic coaching...in the 3rd and 4th QTRS that cost us those games...They're the ones who need to GROW UP and organize their nuts and bolts and figure out how to finish this season at 9-4......GO VOLS!

Easy there, Mikey. I'm concerned you're gona' bust a gut. Must you shout? Yes. I've watched all of UT's games; pretty much since the early 1950's, and I played that silly game for a touch over 7 years. You? I've said this before and will wind up reiterating: Zone blocking schemes and each and every player's reaction with quick, after-the-snap reactions on such a power/spread/multi-set offense requires the natural trial-and-error produced by lots and lots of reps before it's solidly ingrained into the overall instincts of the team as a group. Butch knows this and so do his players. Poorly executed plays...even if messed up by one guy...can make any called play look stupid. Calm down, buddy. Roll one if you've got some.

 

[MikeVol44]

Easy there, Mikey. I'm concerned you're gona' bust a gut. Must you shout? Yes. I've watched all of UT's games; pretty much since the early 1950's, and I played that silly game for a touch over 7 years. You? I've said this before and will wind up reiterating: Zone blocking schemes and each and every player's reaction with quick, after-the-snap reactions on such a power/spread/multi-set offense requires the natural trial-and-error produced by lots and lots of reps before it's solidly ingrained into the overall instincts of the team as a group. Butch knows this and so do his players. Poorly executed plays...even if messed up by one guy...can make any called play look stupid. Calm down, buddy. Roll one if you've got some.

sorry, sir....I meant no hostility...and was not yelling...just emphasizingmy points--a bad habit of typing them out in caps....

But I'm not going to sit here and let your canned BS about repetitions and instincts sound like legitimate football knowledge. You sound like a publicist for CBJ.....it's always the players' fault for not executing....

and yes, I did play--with Dale Jones and Chris White at Bradley Central and was taught and coached defense by Bob Zvolerin...know who he was?

"Poorly executed plays...even if messed up by one guy...can make any called play look stupid."

Are you really trying to convince ANYONE that our team's lack of repetitions and proper football instincts--and failure in proper execution--actually caused 2 of our 4 losses in games where we had the lead in the 4th QTR by 2 TDs????????

Please quit smoking that crap because it's destroyed whatever ability you have had in the past to think coherently.

Against OK--
we went conservative offensively in our playcalling--failing to make OK pay for stacking the box and bringing one blitz after another against us--choosing to retreat and be passive--and sat on the ball for almost 2 full qtrs in the second half and it cost us the game....everyone in the country knows that our coaches choked away that game.....just where have you been?

Furthermore--we did the same thing just 2 weeks later against Fla--offensively--which makes that loss even more inexcusable by this coaching staff....

And how many 4th down conversions on D to allow Fla to snatch that victory from our hands???? The last 4th and 14 was the straw that broke our back by failing to blitz and forcing their young QB to make a quick decision and throw early.....

Either way--it was our coaching staff who failed to demonstrate how to finish games and walk away from the field with the victory the players had earned....

And if you don't like my responses don't call me out and attempt to deconstruct what I've said that is absolutely correct......and EVERYONE in the NCAA football community of coaches already knows that it was our coaching staff that choked out two losses where we had victories....

good-day, sir.....here endeth the lesson...:salute:

 

[Volition 1.0]

The OP is building a straw man argument as nobody has really called for Butch to be fired. Murdered maybe, but not fired.

Secondly, if we do end up 8-4 that's great, but it will be an extremely weak 8-4. Georgia is is only win we have that you can even argue was a "impressive team to beat". The sec east is monumentally bad right now and any fan taking an honest look at the season would have to agree that UT should be on their way to Atlanta, not Florida. But our coaching flat out sucked through the first five games. We should have had a 10-2 or even 11-1 season THIS year.

In my opinion we missed our only opportunity to beat Florida in the next few years. Mcelwaine will eat our lunch from here on out.

We will be back to being the perennial number 2 team in the east now that Spurrier and probably Richt are gone.

We missed the golden opportunity of a lifetime to be that team that the whole nation talks about. The opportunity was there and we muffed it.

10-2 is the floor of any decent expectation next year.

We beat SC last year. This year, UGA and hopefully SC again. This is improvement.

All I ask for is improvement, not miracles.

Perhaps next year, we can beat UF or Bama at home. This would also be an improvement.

This is all much better than losing to Vandy, or Wyoming.

 

[sameolvol]

sorry, sir....I meant no hostility...and was not yelling...just emphasizingmy points--a bad habit of typing them out in caps....

But I'm not going to sit here and let your canned BS about repetitions and instincts sound like legitimate football knowledge. You sound like a publicist for CBJ.....it's always the players' fault for not executing....

and yes, I did play--with Dale Jones and Chris White at Bradley Central and was taught and coached defense by Bob Zvolerin...know who he was?

"Poorly executed plays...even if messed up by one guy...can make any called play look stupid."

Are you really trying to convince ANYONE that our team's lack of repetitions and proper football instincts--and failure in proper execution--actually caused 2 of our 4 losses in games where we had the lead in the 4th QTR by 2 TDs????????

Please quit smoking that crap because it's destroyed whatever ability you have had in the past to think coherently.

Against OK--
we went conservative offensively in our playcalling--failing to make OK pay for stacking the box and bringing one blitz after another against us--choosing to retreat and be passive--and sat on the ball for almost 2 full qtrs in the second half and it cost us the game....everyone in the country knows that our coaches choked away that game.....just where have you been?

Furthermore--we did the same thing just 2 weeks later against Fla--offensively--which makes that loss even more inexcusable by this coaching staff....

And how many 4th down conversions on D to allow Fla to snatch that victory from our hands???? The last 4th and 14 was the straw that broke our back by failing to blitz and forcing their young QB to make a quick decision and throw early.....

Either way--it was our coaching staff who failed to demonstrate how to finish games and walk away from the field with the victory the players had earned....

And if you don't like my responses don't call me out and attempt to deconstruct what I've said that is absolutely correct......and EVERYONE in the NCAA football community of coaches already knows that it was our coaching staff that choked out two losses where we had victories....

good-day, sir.....here endeth the lesson...:salute:

OK. Never mind the easing up, and thanks for solidifying my points. BTW, your props don't impress me.

 

[theFallGuy]

We beat Kentucky and turning out to be a bad Georgia team

Let's pump the breaks on the "we are back"

We aren't back until we beat Bama, Florida, and Georgia on a consistent basis

Beating Kentucky shouldn't be a precursor to greater things

So by your definition Fulmer never had us back either

 

[GreyWolf1129]

I will be the first to admit that I wanted him gone after the Arky game. I was fully off the Butch train, but he has won me back over quickly. He has us heading in the right direction

This. I was mad after the OU loss, and absolutely inconsolable after the UF loss. Then comes the loss at home against Arkansas.

I was done with CBJ and the staff. And I figured Team 119 was in the proverbial "death spiral".

Somewhere in the time frame between Arkansas and Alabama, something started to change. We played Bama right down to the wire, even though we weren't playing our best (on offense). Jancek called a gem.

And hearing what came out of the locker room after that game, I found hope. Maybe, just maybe, Butch and the staff finally get it. This is the SEC. You bring your "A" game every Saturday, or you bring a pillow to sit on for the trip home.

While I still think our QB and WR coaches deserve some scrutiny, I also think that there's a chance that CBJ is the right guy.

The next 5 games should answer that question.

Go Vols.

 

[theFallGuy]

So we can degrade him every week but we can't give credit until after multiple years?
Well, I guess that is fairly convenient.

must set the goal posts so high so as to assure utterly impossible, then we can proclaim we were correct that he wasn't the guy

#fitsthenarrative

 

[BudBarry]

Is Coach Jones the answer for the Vols? This is from an outsider perspective that doesn't have a dog in this hunt.
It does seem that the team is doing better going down the road. One camp says "that is progress". The other camp says "well, sure look at the competition". A while back I posted in a thread similar to this one where I asked the question "Do you want to be like my team (OU) or Nebraska and not like those in sense of personnel, coaches, etc but in the situations they were in after legendary coaches left those programs. It took OU several coaches before settling on Stoops. He is now the longest tenured HC in D-1 football (after Beamer's retirement announcement). I'm still on the fence if Stoops needs to stay or go. My point is, Stoops has won 1 NC, competed for 3 others, won all the top bowls and we still have negative fans as well. I haven't been too happy with many of his coaching decisions but I give him benefit of the doubt because he does seem to find a way, somehow, to continue getting us in position to win (for most part). Nebraska is hitting rock bottom and I beleive that stems from so many coaching changes and in-fighting between admin/current fan base/old fan base and alumni. They have been playing FB for some time and they are imploding over their HC right now.

The other thing I see here is many continue giving some sort of excuse for Jones' play calling/game mgmt/etc. I have seen comments such as "well, he's still learning to coach in the SEC" or "he has never had the talent at Cincy or C. Mich like he has here". FL coach has what, 1 year as asst under Saban in the SEC? Hows he making out? Or take Malzhan at Auburn. Sure, he had a couple of years at AR but then went down to Tulsa and Arkie State. But, he comes back and wins a NC at Auburn? Either you can coach or you can't.

Jones has done wonders on the recruiting trail. Great recruiter. But I will caution this, if Jones makes any more quote/un-quote 'coaching mistakes' that cost the Vols a game down the stretch here (which is unlikely), you can bet that lots of recruits will think about playing for a coach at Knoxville when they can play for a coach (assuming his team wins out) at Memphis under Fuentes who seems to be doing more with less.

Jones deserves a chance to finish the product at TN IMHO. Should it hinge on this years final results? Not really. But next year? Man, if he doesn't do something with what you guys have in the stables, I don't know when he will be able to.

 

[beachbums624]

OK. Never mind the easing up, and thanks for solidifying my points. BTW, your props don't impress me.

What ? You mean the " Al Bundy " I played in high school did not do it for you either ?