Even More Obamacare Follies

#2,726
#2,726
lawgator1 said:
That's funny, except that we aren't talking about one person's grade in Econ 202, we are talking about millions of people losing their care, skyrocketing premium costs for those remaining, and millions once again rapidly becoming uninsured. All because of the stubborn refusal of GOP governors to set up a link between their website and the federal exchange (even though they de facto participate in the very same offerings).

I wish that Krugman had not been so partisan about his complaint about the subject judges. It is true that the judges who have ruled that there is even a problem are all staunch Republicans. It is true that the complaint, and the rulings, are partisan attacks.

That tends to drown out his main point, which is indisputably correct, which is that you can only arrive at this absurd construction of the law by taking things out of context and by ignoring the rest of the provisions in the bill. One of the key principles in statutory construction is reading laws "in para materia" with other provisions. The idea is that you read sections together, so that they make sense, rather than read them separately so as to reach an absurd result.

It would be absurd to read the section at issue in isolation, away from the rest of the bill. And to do so you would have to ignore the fact that the Congressional discussions and estimates of costs and effect, all assumed the subsidies were available on both sets of exchanges.

It would the be sheer political partisanship that would lead to the absurd result espoused by the plaintiffs in the case. Just utterly ridiculous.

And everybody knows it.
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The lesson for them is do not vote for incompetents. The Dems are solely to blame, no one else.
 
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#2,728
#2,728
lawgator1 said:
Key Study On Obamacare 2015 Premium Rates Is Out And You Won't Believe What's Going To Happen - Forbes

Wow.
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Wonder where Rick Unger's undying support for McKinsey was when they were predicting the job losses and impact on full time employment of ACA? Oh that's right, he didn't believe it.

Also, let's keep in mind this is for plans in the exchanges - so they impact about 8 million people. Of course the article headline makes it sound like it is insurance across the board which it is not about.
 
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#2,729
#2,729
Like you ever took econ, much less a 200 level class

If the sections were written together that might make sense. Instead they were cobbled together by the various interests and piled on top of each other like a collection of short stories. Their effort to shove this bill down the people's throats is coming back to bite them and it's glorious. Save your "but people are gonna die!" nonsense for someone who might believe it
 
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#2,730
#2,730
utvolpj said:
Like you ever took econ, much less a 200 level class

If the sections were written together that might make sense. Instead they were cobbled together by the various interests and piled on top of each other like a collection of short stories. Their effort to shove this bill down the people's throats is coming back to bite then and is glorious. Save your "people are gonna die!" nonsense for someone who might believe it
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I still can't figure how people with any sense of right and wrong whatsever could pass a bill with around a thousand pages in it and not even try to read it.
 
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#2,732
#2,732
volinbham said:
Wonder where Rick Unger's undying support for McKinsey was when they were predicting the job losses and impact on full time employment of ACA? Oh that's right, he didn't believe it.

Also, let's keep in mind this is for plans in the exchanges - so they impact about 8 million people. Of course the article headline makes it sound like it is insurance across the board which it is not about.
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That's true, its not about insurance across the board.

But you have to admit that it directly contradicts the Republican doomsday forecasts for the exchange policies, rates, etc.

At this point, the Republicans however are all in on hating the ACA. They can never admit they were wrong, even if they were. They can never admit the premium price increases have been reasonable and lower than expected, even if they have been. They can never admit that the number of uninsured has gone down due to the exchanges, even if it has. They can never admit that the exchanges are working, even if they are.

This is what I meant years ago when I said we need leadership that can make the trains run on time. You can criticize Obama all you want on various issues, but the ACA is working and all of the dire warnings from the opponents have fallen flat.

It will be a real shame if it all gets undone by virtue of a tortured reading of the bill as a political favor.
 
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#2,733
#2,733
lawgator1 said:
That's true, its not about insurance across the board.

But you have to admit that it directly contradicts the Republican doomsday forecasts for the exchange policies, rates, etc.

At this point, the Republicans however are all in on hating the ACA. They can never admit they were wrong, even if they were. They can never admit the premium price increases have been reasonable and lower than expected, even if they have been. They can never admit that the number of uninsured has gone down due to the exchanges, even if it has. They can never admit that the exchanges are working, even if they are.

This is what I meant years ago when I said we need leadership that can make the trains run on time. You can criticize Obama all you want on various issues, but the ACA is working and all of the dire warnings from the opponents have fallen flat.

It will be a real shame if it all gets undone by virtue of a tortured reading of the bill as a political favor.
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No it will be a wonderful day when Obolacare gets undone!
 
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#2,734
#2,734
lawgator1 said:
That's true, its not about insurance across the board.

But you have to admit that it directly contradicts the Republican doomsday forecasts for the exchange policies, rates, etc.

At this point, the Republicans however are all in on hating the ACA. They can never admit they were wrong, even if they were. They can never admit the premium price increases have been reasonable and lower than expected, even if they have been. They can never admit that the number of uninsured has gone down due to the exchanges, even if it has. They can never admit that the exchanges are working, even if they are.

This is what I meant years ago when I said we need leadership that can make the trains run on time. You can criticize Obama all you want on various issues, but the ACA is working and all of the dire warnings from the opponents have fallen flat.

It will be a real shame if it all gets undone by virtue of a tortured reading of the bill as a political favor.
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What good is a low premium if the deductible is five to ten grand?
 
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#2,736
#2,736
lawgator1 said:
That's true, its not about insurance across the board.

But you have to admit that it directly contradicts the Republican doomsday forecasts for the exchange policies, rates, etc.

At this point, the Republicans however are all in on hating the ACA. They can never admit they were wrong, even if they were. They can never admit the premium price increases have been reasonable and lower than expected, even if they have been. They can never admit that the number of uninsured has gone down due to the exchanges, even if it has. They can never admit that the exchanges are working, even if they are.

This is what I meant years ago when I said we need leadership that can make the trains run on time. You can criticize Obama all you want on various issues, but the ACA is working and all of the dire warnings from the opponents have fallen flat.

It will be a real shame if it all gets undone by virtue of a tortured reading of the bill as a political favor.
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I would suggest it's far too early to see if ACA is working.

You are only looking at the things you consider "wins" and ignoring the documented impact on employment (from the very source here) both in total employment and hours worked, the loss of access across the board, the increases in premiums across the board, etc.

The subsidy system is a mess and people still don't really know what their subsidy will end up being (even the government doesn't know yet). It is a virtual guarantee that people will be retroactively charged for the subsidy they thought they were being given.

Plus, the meat of ACA has yet to be implemented - the employer mandate. That is the portion that impacts the vast majority of people.

Likewise, the individual mandate is not really in effect either so all you have to this point is an insane amount of money devoted to setting up exchanges that have resulted in about 1/4 of the previously uninsured being covered.

So don't go on and on about people not being able to admit things about ACA if you aren't as well.
 
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#2,738
#2,738
lawgator1 said:
It will be a real shame if it all gets undone by virtue of a tortured reading of the bill as a political favor.
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Don't you think it's a real shame that the architect of the bill admits freely that they had to deceive people to get this to pass and while he "wishes" that wasn't true the ends justify the means for him?
 
#2,742
#2,742
volinbham said:
I would suggest it's far too early to see if ACA is working.

You are only looking at the things you consider "wins" and ignoring the documented impact on employment (from the very source here) both in total employment and hours worked, the loss of access across the board, the increases in premiums across the board, etc.

The subsidy system is a mess and people still don't really know what their subsidy will end up being (even the government doesn't know yet). It is a virtual guarantee that people will be retroactively charged for the subsidy they thought they were being given.

Plus, the meat of ACA has yet to be implemented - the employer mandate. That is the portion that impacts the vast majority of people.

Likewise, the individual mandate is not really in effect either so all you have to this point is an insane amount of money devoted to setting up exchanges that have resulted in about 1/4 of the previously uninsured being covered.

So don't go on and on about people don't being able to admit things about ACA if you aren't as well.
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The GOP predicted immediate calamity, death panels, hospital closures, skyrocketing premiums, massive unemployment ...

None of that occurred a predicted by the GOP and your answer is "just wait"?

Priceless.
 
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#2,745
#2,745
lawgator1 said:
The GOP predicted immediate calamity, death panels, hospital closures, skyrocketing premiums, massive unemployment ...

None of that occurred a predicted by the GOP and your answer is "just wait"?

Priceless.
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It's impossible to have a discussion with you since you insist on hyperbole and intentional misreading of other posters' comments.

Easy to see why you defend Obama so much - you are just like him.
 
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#2,746
#2,746
lawgator1 said:
The GOP predicted immediate calamity, death panels, hospital closures, skyrocketing premiums, massive unemployment ...

None of that occurred a predicted by the GOP and your answer is "just wait"?

Priceless.
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How many don't accept Obozocare? If LaQuanda needs to have an ingrown toenail removed she probably won't have issues. If she finds out she has lymphoma I doubt she finds top care will be as easy to get especially since Doctors know she won't be paying the 10k+ deductible.
 
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#2,749
#2,749
volinbham said:
Don't you think it's a real shame that the architect of the bill admits freely that they had to deceive people to get this to pass and while he "wishes" that wasn't true the ends justify the means for him?
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Partisan Hack 101

He knows good and well that signing documents (in this case law) without reading and complete understanding is moronic and utterly stupid on the face. Knowing this and defending it is PH 101.

You wont see an answer to this. He knows its stupid but that letter D is getting in the way of him calling it what it is.
 
#2,750
#2,750
FLVOL69 said:
Yes and yes, also no referral for a specialist either.
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What about the people who work for employers with less than 50 employees who do not voluntarily offer health insurance?

Let's be honest here, the vast, vast majority of employers with more than 50 employees do offer insurance. But with less than 50 employees, small business often do not offer such a benefit.

My sister works for an insurance agent. Auto, home, that kind of thing. Less than 50 employees in two offices. The agent does not offer health insurance.

So my sister, who incidentally has had some health issues, is signed up for coverage through the ACA. I believe its in the $500 a month region for the gold plan, but she is planning next go 'round to sign up for silver so as to knock it down to about $300 a month.

This is Florida, one of the states run by a GOP governor who rejected a state exchange just to be obstinate. There was absolutely no reason not to offer an exchange. It makes perfect sense to do so. But no, that would be in some way capitulating.

So if the program is undone, my sister will not be able to buy insurance basically through any mechanism. There are literally millions of people like her. Hard working, professional. But uninsurable except through a mechanism like the ACA.
 
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