ESPN thinks we go 4-8 next year

#326
#326
I'll offer up the perspective of a recent lurker turned poster. Although 5-7 would be disappointing, it wouldn't necessarily be a failure depending on the context of the games themselves (very competitive losses for instance). IF that or a 4-8 season does happen it will potentially but Butch on the hot seat whether we feel that way or not and probably, more importantly, hurt recruiting as some prospects have stated their commitment depends on seeing progress this season. Personally I say coaching turnover in the near future would be worse than another losing season.
 
#327
#327
WilliamDuVOL said:
I'll offer up the perspective of a recent lurker turned poster. Although 5-7 would be disappointing, it wouldn't necessarily be a failure depending on the context of the games themselves (very competitive losses for instance). IF that or a 4-8 season does happen it will potentially but Butch on the hot seat whether we feel that way or not and probably, more importantly, hurt recruiting as some prospects have stated their commitment depends on seeing progress this season. Personally I say coaching turnover in the near future would be worse than another losing season.
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There are at least 6 VERY winnable games on our schedule. I understand losing to the teams we're supposed to lose to. But there is no reason we cannot win against...

Utah State
Arkansas State
UTC
Mizzou
Vandy
Kentucky
Ole Miss

and if you get lucky and the ball bounces your way it's not out of the question that you might sneak up on...

Georgia
Florida
South Carolina

So while yes we do have a tough schedule that doesn't mean there aren't at least 6 winnable games on that list. To me 5-7 would be extremely disappointing.
 
#328
#328
Brave Volunteer said:
There are at least 6 VERY winnable games on our schedule. I understand losing to the teams we're supposed to lose to. But there is no reason we cannot win against...

Utah State
Arkansas State
UTC
Mizzou
Vandy
Kentucky
Ole Miss

and if you get lucky and the ball bounces your way it's not out of the question that you might sneak up on...

Georgia
Florida
South Carolina

So while yes we do have a tough schedule that doesn't mean there aren't at least 6 winnable games on that list. To me 5-7 would be extremely disappointing.
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Yeah I'm with you on that one. 6-6 or even 7-5 wouldn't really surprise me, but neither would 5-7 is all I'm saying. Outside of those numbers will surprise me. I think we go to a bowl. 7-5 is about where I'm expecting.
 
#329
#329
WilliamDuVOL said:
I'll offer up the perspective of a recent lurker turned poster. Although 5-7 would be disappointing, it wouldn't necessarily be a failure depending on the context of the games themselves (very competitive losses for instance). IF that or a 4-8 season does happen it will potentially but Butch on the hot seat whether we feel that way or not and probably, more importantly, hurt recruiting as some prospects have stated their commitment depends on seeing progress this season. Personally I say coaching turnover in the near future would be worse than another losing season.
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The effect to recruiting could be severely detrimental. IMO Butch really needs to get to a bowl. His record indicates that teams he takes over significantly improve in year 2, so I am hopeful history will repeat itself.

Also, welcome to the madness that is Volnation :hi:
 
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#330
#330
VolFan4Life87 said:
The effect to recruiting could be severely detrimental. IMO Butch really needs to get to a bowl. His record indicates that teams he takes over significantly improve in year 2, so I am hopeful history will repeat itself.

Also, welcome to the madness that is Volnation :hi:
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Truthfully if he continues to recruit at this high of a level I don't see how he can't succeed. And thank you, I ironically ran out of material to read after the season and started following recruiting, which led to VN, which led to the Adoree Jackson thread, which... well you get the idea. :)
 
#333
#333
WilliamDuVOL said:
Truthfully if he continues to recruit at this high of a level I don't see how he can't succeed. And thank you, I ironically ran out of material to read after the season and started following recruiting, which led to VN, which led to the Adoree Jackson thread, which... well you get the idea. :)
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The key is to get a couple of these classes which is what worries me about this year in particular and its potential effects to the 2015 class.

The off season is brutal; I've tried to make the transition to the recruiting threads to pass the time but man they're a different breed over there :p Could be just me.
 
#334
#334
Horsechit! I believe our Defense will be vastly improved over last year. Magitt is finally healthy, and while young, we will have blazing speed (of which we had very little last year) all over the field with real hitters laying serious wood. DL is our only question mark.
 
#335
#335
MustafaRasta said:
You're wrong.

My guess is you know you're disingenuous. You just don't care so you can try and make your point.
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Nope... and nope.

We all know the point by now too....you're still emotionally hurt over looking like a bufoon about Dooley.
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Nope. Go back to 4 years ago and read my posts about Dooley. I said he would get 3 years and needed to make a major move in year 3 to survive. There were people then who protested that notion. Dooley got his 3 years. He couldn't get it done. He was fired... just like he should have been.

Jones will get at least 3 years. He needs to show significant improvement on the field. If he doesn't get it done... he should be fired too.

I get it. It hurts to look like a fool. You need to get over it, we all make mistakes. I once bought a Ford Focus.
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No. You really don't get it. What I was wrong about and have freely admitted was that Dooley should not be criticized until he got his 3 years... sort of what many are trying to argue now on Jones' behalf.

I am over it and won't make that the same mistake again... nor a different one. If Dooley being a bad coach because he went 6-7, 5-7, and 5-7 having taken over a terrible situation then why on earth should we expect less from Jones if in fact he's a better coach? If he's not a better coach then why would any Vol fan argue that he should get 4, 5, 6, 8,.... years to fix the program?
 
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#336
#336
KBVol said:
Have agreed that Dooley took over a very difficult situation with regards to the recruiting class and overall stability of the program. I thought he did a nice job early on as his highest single season win total was year 1 amidst all the "chaos"....won 6, could've pretty easily won 8.

My contention is that rather than improve recruiting, wins and loss and his players performance in the class room, quite the opposite happened. 6 wins....5 wins....4 wins. The fact that Dooley's win-loss record steadily got worse, that he was responsible for 2 of the worst losses in UT football history in his 2nd and 3rd years (Kentucky in 2011 & Vandy in 2012) fully negates the credit you might want to give him for winning 6 gms his first year to CBJ's 5 in his first year. Also throw in that his team was dead last in APR in the SEC, a point not lost on opposing SEC coaches like James Franklin who was using that to negatively recruit against UT.

A final quick point. Only 11 of the 22 players that Dooley signed in 2012, his last class, remain on this years team. Of those 11, only 2 are poised to make any contributions outside of special teams....Jason Croom, our 4th WR and Danny O'Brien, a DT that will likely only provide depth at the D tackle position.
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Dooley did not improve recruiting. That's true.

It remains to be seen what Jones can do in recruiting if he doesn't have something tangible to sell recruits after this season. His '14 class was built on legacies (which Dooley didn't have in year two) and the promises of a really, really good salesman. If you are a competing "salesman" and he goes 5-7 again... you can sell against his "product" pretty easily.

The difference between being able to point to improved W's and competitiveness and not being able to do so is HUGE.
 
#337
#337
VolFan4Life87 said:
I've argued with sjt on this before KBVol and I'm with you. I truly don't see how anyone can make an argument that holds water that Butch Jones inherited a better Tennessee football program, in its entirety, than Derek Dooley did. And yes, recruiting class rankings and performance on and off the field declined steadily with Dooley at the helm. There's no reason the 2012 squad should not have won 8 games. Thank God they didn't, or Dooley would still be here.
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You can't.... unless of course you go to UTSPORTS.com, open both rosters or depth charts, and actually compare. Then it becomes really quite easy to see that Jones inherited a better first year roster than Dooley did.
 
#338
#338
VolFan4Life87 said:
The effect to recruiting could be severely detrimental. IMO Butch really needs to get to a bowl. His record indicates that teams he takes over significantly improve in year 2, so I am hopeful history will repeat itself.

Also, welcome to the madness that is Volnation :hi:
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Dead nuts on with this post.
 
#339
#339
WilliamDuVOL said:
Truthfully if he continues to recruit at this high of a level I don't see how he can't succeed. And thank you, I ironically ran out of material to read after the season and started following recruiting, which led to VN, which led to the Adoree Jackson thread, which... well you get the idea. :)
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If he doesn't win... then it will be next to impossible to keep the recruiting going. Kids want to play for a winner. Promises and dreams work early on. But starting this fall and getting progressively more so... those promises have to turn into something tangible. It has to turn into winning the ones a high level program "should" (USU, ASU, Chatt, Vandy, UK, Mizzou) and then at least some that maybe you "shouldn't" (UGA, UF, USCe, OM) and occasionally some that you "can't" (Bama, OU).
 
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#340
#340
sjt18 said:
Dooley did not improve recruiting. That's true.

It remains to be seen what Jones can do in recruiting if he doesn't have something tangible to sell recruits after this season. His '14 class was built on legacies (which Dooley didn't have in year two) and the promises of a really, really good salesman. If you are a competing "salesman" and he goes 5-7 again... you can sell against his "product" pretty easily.

The difference between being able to point to improved W's and competitiveness and not being able to do so is HUGE.
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.
 
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#341
#341
I see SJT is at it again. Defending Dooley again. Jones will get 3-4 years to turn the program around. And by turn it around I mean bowl game this year (6-7 wins) and a New Year's Day bowl next (8-10wins). That is my standard. Anything less than 6 wins this year and we should all be wondering. I say he'll get 4 years. I went back and watched all the games from last year and the pregame and I suggest you SJT go watch nearly every commentators view of UT when they talk about us from last year. Lack of depth and lack of talent was a huge concern as well as lack of speed. Yet you seem to think that Dooley inherited a worse situation. 2 players from Dooley's recruiting are left to contribute and the rest have left the team or have been recruited over. Now throw in the fact that players weren't doing their workouts. Dooley didn't recruit an OL player for a whole year, Academics was non existent which led to negative recruiting and nearly every high school coach in the state had been burned by him. The fact that Butch Jones had to recruit 32 player this cycle tells me all I need to know about Dooley's time at UT.
 
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#344
#344
The fact of the matter is, a coach being paid right near top of his profession ought to be expected to deliver a single winning season in two years. That's really not asking too much.
 
#345
#345
Comparing what Dooley inherited vs what Jones inherited is like comparing horse sh&t to cow sh&t. One was not significantly different than the other and neither were very good.
 
#346
#346
oregonvol said:
The fact of the matter is, a coach being paid right near top of his profession ought to be expected to deliver a single winning season in two years. That's really not asking too much.
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Agree,but
I don't know about expecting a winning season year 2, but 6-6 really should be expected in year 2 to me....schedule...schmedule...yada yada with reasons/excuses why we can't get to a Bowl Game. I think we will get to a bowl this year. We may even be pleasantly surprised with 7-5.:)
 
#347
#347
MrBiggles said:
I see SJT is at it again. Defending Dooley again.
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That's brilliant. Perhaps you can explain how someone saying that a guy got a fair shot, failed, and was rightly fired constitutes "defending" him.

The need to lie about what someone else said... is a sure sign that you don't have a legit argument.

Jones will get 3-4 years to turn the program around. And by turn it around I mean bowl game this year (6-7 wins) and a New Year's Day bowl next (8-10wins).
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I actually think he's gets a third year even if he only wins 5 this year. The 4th years would be very much in question though and dependent on him doing very well in year 3.

Do you EVER actually read someone's post before attempting to disagree with them?

That is my standard. Anything less than 6 wins this year and we should all be wondering.
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Which is pretty much what I have said in this very thread.

I say he'll get 4 years. I went back and watched all the games from last year and the pregame and I suggest you SJT go watch nearly every commentators view of UT when they talk about us from last year.
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Parroting excuses isn't "analysis".

Lack of depth and lack of talent was a huge concern as well as lack of speed.
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UT was more athletic than Vandy. It was not talent that lost that game. It also wasn't a matter of depth or talent that made the USA game as close as it was nor led to the Mizzou mauling.

Yet you seem to think that Dooley inherited a worse situation. 2 players from Dooley's recruiting are left to contribute and the rest have left the team or have been recruited over.
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That's this year. Dooley's 2nd team didn't have many contributing holdovers either. His first team had fewer SEC quality players than the '13 roster did.

But I have repeatedly said that neither inherited a good situation.

Now answer this. If both inherited similarly bad situations and a 6-7 season followed by a 5-7 season put Dooley on a hot seat... and rightly so. Why should the standard be LOWER for a BETTER coach?

Now throw in the fact that players weren't doing their workouts. Dooley didn't recruit an OL player for a whole year, Academics was non existent which led to negative recruiting and nearly every high school coach in the state had been burned by him. The fact that Butch Jones had to recruit 32 player this cycle tells me all I need to know about Dooley's time at UT.
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If he's a superior coach to Dooley then he should start showing it, right? You guys want to argue minutiae. I believe that's a not so subtle tactic to avoid the major point. Great coaches get results and it doesn't take 4 years to start seeing them. I certainly don't expect a championship this fall. I do expect progress... much like you expressed above. I'm not even sure it is completely fair to expect the 10 wins you do in '15... but I think it is completely fair to expect progress in both wins and competitiveness.
 
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#349
#349
GrowVol said:
Agree,but
I don't know about expecting a winning season year 2, but 6-6 really should be expected in year 2 to me....schedule...schmedule...yada yada with reasons/excuses why we can't get to a Bowl Game. I think we will get to a bowl this year. We may even be pleasantly surprised with 7-5.:)
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I would be satisfied with 6-6... and have actually said that... for months. I would be happy with 7-5.

I think 5-7 would be underperforming the talent.
 
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