espn on Barnes vs. Smart

#76
#76
volfanbill said:
you're like the guy who said he didn't want anything to do with Bryce Drew because he was going to have to google that name. If 25+ wins consistently and trips to the Big Dance for a school like VCU isn't enough to convince you he's a good coach, whatever you think about the basketball hire really is invalid.

I just stood up for Shaka Smart, I will now go shoot myself.
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I'm not like "that guy" at all unless he was asking for an explanation as to why perception and data don't seem to match. I'm also not making a case for or against Smart.

I'm more like the guy who sees that volume of wins is not necessarily an indication of actual success. Quality of opponent is a necessary measure in evaluating the quantity.

Smart's win totals are impressive but let's dig a bit deeper. Over his tenure at VCU he has had the best recruiting class in his conference all but one or two years and he has substantially increased the recruiting trend from in the 80's to the low 20's. VCU is getting far better athletes than they have had, yet the results are flat. And, the NCAA tournament results seem to be on a downward trend having peaked his second year at VCU.

Barnes is perceived as a downward trending coach, but his results are basically flat while his talent was actually in a decline.

My point is that I don't understand perception vs. reality, and was hoping someone could elucidate besides stating that if I don't know, I just don't get it. That last part is true. Help me understand.
 

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#77
#77
daj2576 said:
I'm not like "that guy" at all unless he was asking for an explanation as to why perception and data don't seem to match. I'm also not making a case for or against Smart.

I'm more like the guy who sees that volume of wins is not necessarily an indication of actual success. Quality of opponent is a necessary measure in evaluating the quantity.

Smart's win totals are impressive but let's dig a bit deeper. Over his tenure at VCU he has had the best recruiting class in his conference all but one or two years and he has substantially increased the recruiting trend from in the 80's to the low 20's. VCU is getting far better athletes than they have had, yet the results are flat. And, the NCAA tournament results seem to be on a downward trend having peaked his second year at VCU.

Barnes is perceived as a downward trending coach, but his results are basically flat while his talent was actually in a decline.

My point is that I don't understand perception vs. reality, and was hoping someone could elucidate besides stating that if I don't know, I just don't get it. That last part is true. Help me understand.
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Post of the year! Well done!:rock:
 
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#78
#78
daj2576 said:
I'm not like "that guy" at all unless he was asking for an explanation as to why perception and data don't seem to match. I'm also not making a case for or against Smart.

I'm more like the guy who sees that volume of wins is not necessarily an indication of actual success. Quality of opponent is a necessary measure in evaluating the quantity.

Smart's win totals are impressive but let's dig a bit deeper. Over his tenure at VCU he has had the best recruiting class in his conference all but one or two years and he has substantially increased the recruiting trend from in the 80's to the low 20's. VCU is getting far better athletes than they have had, yet the results are flat. And, the NCAA tournament results seem to be on a downward trend having peaked his second year at VCU.

Barnes is perceived as a downward trending coach, but his results are basically flat while his talent was actually in a decline.

My point is that I don't understand perception vs. reality, and was hoping someone could elucidate besides stating that if I don't know, I just don't get it. That last part is true. Help me understand.
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........
 

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#79
#79
daj2576 said:
I'm not like "that guy" at all unless he was asking for an explanation as to why perception and data don't seem to match. I'm also not making a case for or against Smart.

I'm more like the guy who sees that volume of wins is not necessarily an indication of actual success. Quality of opponent is a necessary measure in evaluating the quantity.

Smart's win totals are impressive but let's dig a bit deeper. Over his tenure at VCU he has had the best recruiting class in his conference all but one or two years and he has substantially increased the recruiting trend from in the 80's to the low 20's. VCU is getting far better athletes than they have had, yet the results are flat. And, the NCAA tournament results seem to be on a downward trend having peaked his second year at VCU.

Barnes is perceived as a downward trending coach, but his results are basically flat while his talent was actually in a decline.

My point is that I don't understand perception vs. reality, and was hoping someone could elucidate besides stating that if I don't know, I just don't get it. That last part is true. Help me understand.
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Since VCU has improved it's recruiting the last few years, makes me wonder why their NCAA tournament results have declined the last 4 years. Two second round exits, then two first round knockouts. Maybe the final 4 was a fluke.
 
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#80
#80
Their recruiting has been better than their conference and they're winning their conference. Over and over again. To expect VCU to beat the Kentuckys, Dukes, etc of the world consistently regardless of coach is just ridiculous. To recruit well and consistently crush your conference st a place like VCU is proof that Smart is a top notch coach.
 
#81
#81
We really have Steve Patterson the Texas AD to thank for getting Rick Barnes. He wanted Barnes gone and essentially got Barnes to call his bluff about firing his assistants. I think the Smart hire could potentially be good---but a lot of Texas fans say that Patterson is a meddler and so you have to wonder how that's going to play out.
 
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#82
#82
volfanbill said:
Their recruiting has been better than their conference and they're winning their conference. Over and over again. To expect VCU to beat the Kentuckys, Dukes, etc of the world consistently regardless of coach is just ridiculous. To recruit well and consistently crush your conference st a place like VCU is proof that Smart is a top notch coach.
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Crush their conference? The graphic that I posted a few links back says that this year he was tied for 4th, and has never ended the regular season on top of his conference rankings.

Also, one would be expected to win against your conference if you are out recruiting them year after year. As I mentioned, in Shaka's tenure VCU has had the best recruiting class 4 out of 6 years. Even if your assertion is correct that Shaka is 'crushing' his conference, winning games with better talent doesn't eliminate enough variables to make one a 'top notch' coach.

Again, I am not for or against Smart. What I can say is that the quantifiable data (negative trends in results/positive trends in recruiting) doesn't seem to match the hyperbolic increase in perception.
 
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#83
#83
volfanbill said:
Their recruiting has been better than their conference and they're winning their conference. Over and over again. To expect VCU to beat the Kentuckys, Dukes, etc of the world consistently regardless of coach is just ridiculous. To recruit well and consistently crush your conference st a place like VCU is proof that Smart is a top notch coach.
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You do realize Smart has never won a regular season conference title in either the A-10 or Colonial leagues?
Just like Capel and Grant,Smart will fail at Texas.
 
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#84
#84
kohlrums said:
How many did Butch Jones haul in before getting to a school with Tennessee's resources?

But, we can keep pretending Barnes is a recruiting wizard for bringing talent into a school with the biggest budget and resources in the country. Gold star for you, Rick!
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Don't like Rick Barnes huh??!
 
#85
#85
As far as Shaka Smart goes... he's probably a pretty good coach but we have created a legend that he could never live up to IMO and it was probably a good thing that we did not get him. When all points are taken into consideration coach Rick Barnes was the best hire we could have made at this point....and that's coming from and oft times critic of CRB at Texas!!!
 
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#87
#87
docholiday said:
You do realize Smart has never won a regular season conference title in either the A-10 or Colonial leagues?
Just like Capel and Grant,Smart will fail at Texas.
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You realize that most people only care about conference tournaments right?
 
#91
#91
volswillrise12 said:
We really have Steve Patterson the Texas AD to thank for getting Rick Barnes. He wanted Barnes gone and essentially got Barnes to call his bluff about firing his assistants. I think the Smart hire could potentially be good---but a lot of Texas fans say that Patterson is a meddler and so you have to wonder how that's going to play out.
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Their whole fan base wanted gone not just the AD.
 
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#92
#92
kohlrums said:
How many did Butch Jones haul in before getting to a school with Tennessee's resources?

But, we can keep pretending Barnes is a recruiting wizard for bringing talent into a school with the biggest budget and resources in the country. Gold star for you, Rick!
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Texas will regret firing Barnes. The Vols got lucky here. Barnes will bring depth of talent here, and a competitive edge we haven't had since that guy who's now coaching down at Auburn.
 
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#95
#95
kohlrums said:
Ok. Shaka coaches "streetball." Uh-huh. I love code words.
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an article I read yesterday from CBS , the Texas fans that were commenting on Shaka were not as giddy as you are over him. Most were giving him 3 years before he gets fired and wasn't excited as you are over him as a coach. Most rather had Barnes than Shaka.
 
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#97
#97
Stoked said:
As did we. Their basketball program is unfortunely > than ours at this point. Barnes set them up to make that hire, and hopefully he does the same for us.
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I don't see him as an upgrade, I see Smart as a younger and hungrier still up and coming type coach, while Barnes is already on top with established reputation. Smart at best equals what Barnes was doing at Clemson and Texas early years 15 to 20 Yeats ago. I will lay odds Smart will be a bust like so many mid major coaches that try to step up to high major levels. Most don't succeed. Smart hasn't proved he can recruit NBA ready high schoolers yet. He will have to recruit differently at Texas than he did at VCU.
 
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#98
#98
TNDRIVER said:
I don't see him as an upgrade, I see Smart as a younger and hungrier still up and coming type coach, while Barnes is already on top with established reputation. Smart at best equals what Barnes was doing at Clemson and Texas early years 15 to 20 Yeats ago. I will lay odds Smart will be a bust like so many mid major coaches that try to step up to high major levels. Most don't succeed. Smart hasn't proved he can recruit NBA ready high schoolers yet. He will have to recruit differently at Texas than he did at VCU.
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Agree! While at the other U.T. media folks are drooling over the "Strong & Smart" headlines, I don't see either of Texas coaches being great successes nor handling the intense fan pressure. Meanwhile, we have added Rick Barnes (a proven success every placed he landed) to Butch Jones at UT-K! I am more than satisfied & very optimistic about the future of Vol basketball & football.
 
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#99
#99
Would I rather have Smart than Barnes? Yes, sure. But do you think that cheapskate Hart would have shelled out for him? No. Y'all need to just be happy that a guy like Hart - who hired Puggsly as a head coach - was able to get somebody like Barnes. It was a very pleasant surprise for me, especially since I was convinced we would be stuck with Will Wade.
 
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#100
#100
iluvsmesumdooley said:
Would I rather have Smart than Barnes? Yes, sure. But do you think that cheapskate Hart would have shelled out for him? No. Y'all need to just be happy that a guy like Hart - who hired Puggsly as a head coach - was able to get somebody like Barnes. It was a very pleasant surprise for me, especially since I was convinced we would be stuck with Will Wade.
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That "cheapskate" is paying Barnes $2.2 million. That would have been the 17th highest salary in CBB in 2014.
 
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