Do You Support Sovereignty Self-determination?

#26
#26
YorkVol said:
But, I don't support violently maintaining the ties if the people want to separate.
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If a separation is necessary for long-term regional stability, most people eventually go along with it.

This is where the comparison with Crimea and other nations (e.g., USA) breaks down. Most countries aren't dealing with toppled governments, armed militias, and the like.
 
#27
#27
Velo Vol said:
If a separation is necessary for long-term regional stability, most people eventually go along with it.
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This is presuming the politicians in charge want their power base to slip away. Because typically when one region goes, others start clamoring for independence as well. The people may very well decide they want autonomy, but whether the political masters are inclined to agree is a huge problem.

Velo Vol said:
This is where the comparison with Crimea and other nations (e.g., USA) breaks down. Most countries aren't dealing with toppled governments, armed militias, and the like.
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The only difference is the presence of foreign troops supporting those people. Say Texas decides they want to leave the Union and the Governor invites China to bring troops in to help maintain order. They oblige and the vote goes in favor of breaking ties with the US.

How would this be different than the Crimea?
 
#28
#28
The problem with self-determination is that it is implicit anarchy. No, it's not necessarily doing away with government (rather, it is creating a new one), but philosophically, it is aligned with anarchy. Once you allow self-determination as a principle, by that same principle you have to allow anyone to be self-determinate. It may sound far-fetched, but, in other words, I should be able to be my own country.

I think asking questions about the legitimacy of self-determination is a de facto encounter with anarchism. Can you accept anarchy?

And, to clarify, by anarchy, I don't necessarily mean a complete lack of government (although it can be); I mean that self-determination opens itself up to a multitude of non-hierarchical systems or "systems" of governance.
 
#29
#29
Grand Vol said:
How would this be different than the Crimea?
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Is Texas joining China(?)/Mexico, or becoming an independent state?

That's often an important barrier to nations fracturing--people get that they are better off in a larger, stronger country even though they may have long-standing issues with the alliance (e.g., Quebec).

Maybe Texas could survive as an independent nation, but New Mexico would have difficulty doing so.
 
#30
#30
Velo Vol said:
Is Texas joining China(?)/Mexico, or becoming an independent state?
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Doesn't matter really. The referendum in Crimea offered the chance to become an independent Republic as well, but the vote went towards annexation by Russia.

The point being, if Texas, or any State for that matter, voted to become an independent entity or even being annexed by a foreign government and said foreign troops came along to "keep the peace" the vote would be put down by the US government as being illegal even if they voted for pure independence.

Velo Vol said:
That's often an important barrier to nations fracturing--people get that they are better off in a larger, stronger country even though they may have long-standing issues with the alliance (e.g., Quebec).

Maybe Texas could survive as an independent nation, but New Mexico would have difficulty doing so.
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Same could be said about the Confederacy. They needed the industrial markets in the North to "survive."

But let's say a group of States upped and said "forget you, we're done and declaring ourselves to be independent." What would the US Government's reaction be even with overwhelming citizen support and furthermore, how far would they go to keep said States as part of the Union?
 
#31
#31
Grand Vol said:
Doesn't matter really. The referendum in Crimea offered the chance to become an independent Republic as well, but the vote went towards annexation by Russia.

The point being, if Texas, or any State for that matter, voted to become an independent entity or even being annexed by a foreign government and said foreign troops came along to "keep the peace" the vote would be put down by the US government as being illegal even if they voted for pure independence.
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Up until the last few days I would echo all the issues with the Crimean "referendum."

But it's obvious from everything I'm seeing there that this is what a majority of people want. The election is just a formality. Why bother? I suspect even with the most closely controlled election it would get at least 70%.
 
#32
#32
Velo Vol said:
Up until the last few days I would echo all the issues with the Crimean "referendum."

But it's obvious from everything I'm seeing there that this is what a majority of people want. The election is just a formality. Why bother? I suspect even with the most closely controlled election it would get at least 70%.
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ahh, democracy
 
#34
#34
Velo Vol said:
Up until the last few days I would echo all the issues with the Crimean "referendum."

But it's obvious from everything I'm seeing there that this is what a majority of people want. The election is just a formality. Why bother? I suspect even with the most closely controlled election it would get at least 70%.
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I don't have a problem with 70% or even the 93% as long as it was done in a fair and impartial manner.

The point I was making is the US would be no different than the Ukraine reaction to this if roles were reversed. If any other State removed themselves from the Union, they (our government) would be screaming about it. And probably move to stop it even though it was the will of the People.
 
#35
#35
volinbham said:
That isn't at all what I was suggesting. New Mexico has long historic ties to Mexico and the scenario I was envisioning was more akin to the population feeling more connected to Mexico than the US but thanks for just taking partisan jabs as usual.
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If LG doesn't go race card he doesn't go at all.
 
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#37
#37
I support the decision to secede but I don't think it will work in America anymore since everything is so tightly knit together. I wish the West coast would F off.
 
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#40
#40
Personally, I'd like to be able to secede from the US into a country where everyone, absolutely everyone, is exactly like me. Would be great! Would make for real fun times too.
 
#42
#42
UTVOLFAN said:
Not having armed men outside of the voting stations to "suggest" who you should vote for.
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Kinda like this?

Black%20Panthers%20Philadelphia.jpg
 
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#45
#45
volinbham said:
So assuming the Crimea vote to be independent of Ukraine was legit or is done in a way that is legit.

I get the impression most here would support Crimea determining it's own fate.

Would you feel the same if a state like New Mexico decided likewise? Should they be able to secede?
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What kind of lunacy leads a group of people to kill other people simply because they don't want to be part of their group?
 
#50
#50
Grand Vol said:
It's been going on since time began and man started fighting over his first hunting ground.

And will continue in the future. And the reasons are never rational.
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The federal government would undoubtedly go to war to keep New Mexico, and they would have a lot of support. You would call them irrational?
 
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